Two turbo failures in 3 months
 

Hello,
3 months ago my gt2560r failed at a low pressure, All of a sudden the turbo started to make a terrible noise and the compressor wheel couldnt move freely enough. 3 days later turbo started to smoke like crazy.

Now my gt2871r has the exact same failure. The strange thing is that the failure occured during low boost again.

I run a 0.050 oil restrictor. I cannot determine if this is the problem , or an instant high egt. Something else, is it possible to fail due to boost leak?
Any ideas are welcome.

The fact that you had two identical failures make me think it must be related to the oiling system, maybe the restrictor is too small

I flirt with this idea too. My concern is that the ball bearing turbos doesnt require much amount of oil.

A boost leak may overspin it, so yes, it's possible. How bad was the leak?

I haven't figure it out yet. I had the boost controller routed to the im. When I adjusted the valve for more boost the only leak I had was from the valve. But isn't this quiet normal?

Most (maybe all?) GT turbos come with a built in restrictor. You might also have dirt getting into your feed line, clogging your restrictor and starving the turbo.

I thought it was all actually.
I thought the oil pressure sender feed comes after the filter.

Did you ever take off the CHRA?

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting the oil from, and what size line?

both real Garretts or Chinese equivalents?

I haven't heard of actual failures, but in theory, doing this will allow full boost at small throttle openings, which at high engine RPM, requires very high turbo RPMs.

The last work I did before the failure was to change a broken stud on the manifold . Had to disassemble the turbo.


I'm getting the oil from a port next to the oil filter. I'm not sure about the size of the line but you can see it in the picture.


Attachment 202198

Real Garretts.

Is that how your lines are actually routed when running? If so that may very well be your issue.

This is the gt2560r setup, but with same lines. Where do you see the problem?

I sent an email to atp and told me that if I send them my old chra they will send me a new one for 466 dollars . Has anybody done this before?

I did that with limit engineering (i think?) whom Bell said they use. It is a warranty chra replacement program. Went without a hitch.

Take some pictures of chra angle from vertical. Drain pictures also.

It looks like your oil is feeding from the side, not the top. The oil should be coming straight down into the turbo, and exiting straight down as well.

It's not on the side, the oil feed is on top of the chra, here is a more recent photo


http://a.imagehost.org/t/0208/DSC_0049.jpg

Just looks like a lot of sharp bends to me. probably not much of an issue with the feed given the pressure, I loved my 1.6 and having the feed port right there on the hot side. how/where is your drain running?

Im gonna say you dont need a restrictor with the banjo there, since they usual act as a bit of a restriction, not to mention the fact that the turbo may already have a restrictor as others pointed out

hows the drain?

I would say oil starvation due to banjo bolt and restrictor.

Man I miss my 1.6 HKS manifold, such a piece of art! Are you sure you never sucked in some of that silicon sealant I see at the inlet?

Pretty much all oil feeds come in from the side to feed the top port, as it would put quite a kink in the hose if it came straight down into the feed port and then bend it to clear the hood.

Port next to the oil filter? Picture please.

Yeah, I have. As long as it's a real Garrett CHRA and you haven't tried to disassemble it for any reason, they'll replace it regardless of the damage.

I can't imagine the turbo was under-oiled. I run an .035 restrictor and so do a lot of other people, and there aren't a rash of failures like this. My bet is that because you've got the boost controller hooked into the intake manifold, it's overspinning the everliving shit out of the turbo and causing your failures.

Should the wastegate line be hooked up post intercooler/pre intake?

I mean that it appeared from his first picture that the oil was coming in sideways. Like yes, the line comes in from the side, but makes a turn and goes downwards. You can't have the oil shoot in from the side, continue to keep going along the horizontal axis, and then continue out the drain on the other side. The oil still needs to fall in a vertical axis.

Couldn't be this. The problem is in the bearings. Beside this my 2nd turbo hadn't any silicone sealant.

Hmm can't get any down there. If anyone could post a side pic of a bp 99 block I could show you.

yep.

I think a lot of people connect internal wastegates to the manifold so that vacuum hold it closed when the engines in vacuum, but Ive always wondered if it was bad fro the diaphram

I will post a video tomorrow with the drain.

Ok , in the 1st video you can see the drain, nothing, not a single drop..

In the 2nd video is the oil feed, it fills 0.5l bottle in a few seconds with and without the restrictor.

Sorry for the poor quality , it's from my mobile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvCOOuv1Pe8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14ey_cH2CbE

Any suggestions?

this is a T3 turbo drain with a .060" restrictor at idle:




you has no oil going through the turbo for some reason...

Yes propably, could you figure out why? Is it possible from dirty oil?

no clue...maybe your oil drain gasket didnt have a hole in it? seriously odd one.

What's on the end of that oil line? Did you check flow through the restrictor? Look at the restrictor and see if there is damage or possibly an error with the machining ... does the hole go all the way through?

That would eliminate the restrictor if it flowed the same. What did the two failed turbos have in common? same oil? same drain?

did you see his first video? there's zero oil going THROUGH the turbo out the drain... that's a big issue.

He has the line looped though. Remember it's only gravity carrying the oil away. It's not going to make it's way up that loop.

Gianic, try it again with the bottle under the oil pan.

Teflon tape somewhere (I mean ANYWHERE) in your oil plumbing? Maybe at the oil feed take-off from the block/pressure sender? A fly-spec of that crap will kill turbo bearings. - Just a guess, GL...

So where the heck is the oil going? I can't see any smoke from the exhaust and definetaly nothing is flowing from the return line. Not a signle drop!

The oil feed flows ideally with the restrictor. I test it over and over.

same oil, same drain, a little larger restrictor.

The restrictor is fine. you can see through clearly.

No teflon tape for me here.

The line you see looped is the water line.
The oil return is straight down. If you draw an imagenery line from there it would make a perfect 90 degrees angle with the ground.

Ok, I see it now. If that's the case then yeah, there's blockage somewhere. Coked oil will clog up the passages but I don't see it happening in a matter of weeks. What does Garrett have to say about it?

Take the return fitting off and have a look. Is it the same fitting from the first turbo that bit the dust?

Do you have a mechanical pressure gauge?

Wow, two turbos in 3 months, mmhh!

I do not think is the restrictor, I got a T3/T4 with a EGAY type restrictor and so far works very well on a "CHINA" turbo. Anyway see if you can take it to a hydraulic shop so they can test the braided line, those "braided" lines are made out of some hard white plastic on the inside, I have seen under very extreme heat (especially if the touch the turbo manifold) they buckle/collapse preventing oil from getting into the turbo.

Let us know how it goes, turbo projects every now and then shows its gremlins, best of luck!

Attachment 202165

Attachment 202166

Attachment 202167

Two different oil feed lines:

The left oil feed line (unrestricted) is from an RX7 Turbo II

The one on the right (silver) is the one I use, our cars deliver 40 + psi under hard acceleration. The fitting is meant to restrict to 15 psi (if I recall well).

Attachment 202168
A closer look to the one I currently have installed, bought from EGAY on a china turbo.

It is not the same car, Mazda Protege, it uses the same engine 1.8 DOHC, also the orientation is transverse instead of inline with the chassis.

Don't ignore the signs, someone is trying to tell you to forget about turbos...

It has to be either the banjo bolt or the restrictor that it's clogged. I would Aldo check if the whole on the side of the banjo bolt lines up with the oil feed line. I know there's different banjo bolts with different side hole locations and lenghts. And you may want to consider getting rid off banjo bolts period. That's what I did on my turbo

If I find him I'll put my broken chra in his butthole....





....without lubricant :giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle::giggle:


Psiturbo I'm going to measure the pressure of the oil feed at idle. Good idea.

The restrictor and the banjo bolt are not clogged. Oil flows normally through them. I will get rid of them as soon as the new turbo arrives.
But I dont think that this is the problem..

Banjo bolts are not the problem. Factory turbos have them. Aftermarket turbos have them. Most automotive brakes have them. There is nothing inherently wrong with them.

You obviously have some other oiling problem.

I will agree with what was posted previously that taking the wastegate signal from the intake manifold is a problem and must be changed. It may or may not have contributed to the failure, but needs to be changed. The wastegate signal must be taken before the throttle body and preferably after the intercooler.

If the wastegate signal is taken from the intake manifold then at part throttle the turbo is making nearly unlimited amounts of pressure and heat on the compressor side and also severely restricting exhaust flow. If the compressor is seeing no relief from the pressure then it will be fighting with the turbine which will be creating pounds and pounds of superheated backpressure for the exhaust manifold and turbine. Without a pressure reference in front of the throttle, nothing will tell the wastegate to stop making pressure.

I just noticed as well from the picture he posted that his turbo has a vacuum reference on it for the wastegate. Use that!!

I would disconnect all the lines to the turbo (feed and drain), plus all the fittings. Give it a visual inspection and see if there is anything in there that has clogged it. Then I would get some oil and just dump it in the top hole, and see if it falls out the bottom.

Τhat was the 2560r. 2871 didnt have that port.


Sixshooter I like your explanation very much, and I'm sure the destruction came in part throttle.
But as I mentioned above, with the 2560 I had the boost signal from the compressor housing so that wasnt the problem on the first failure.

Has to be an oil issue then, if you had same thing happen to two turbo's, and were using the right boost reference on one of them.

If you send the turbo to ATP they can evaluate it and (9 times out of 10) tell you what caused the failure. Just cause I am paranoid, when we switch out a broken turbo for a new one, we always do new a oil supply and oil drain line. And possible new coolant lines, depending upon the reason for the failure.
Stephanie

The white material is Teflon. The braided stainless steel is to give it protection from abrasion and help with preventing swelling of the tubing. But yes, under extreme heating conditions, Teflon tubing will "pinch" closed and restrict or stop flow. Try pouring some oil through the tube directly and see if it flows through at a steady rate. Could give you another idea... Just a thought.

Got my new turbo from atp and I mounted my egt sensor near the collector. (before it was on the dp) They didn't mention the fault.

The readings from the egt sensor were scary. 1796f peak temp. I think this is the problem because I'm quiet sure I read somewhere that the ball bearing temp limit is 1700f.

I think you need find out what ATP says about the EGTs for that turbo. A turbo engineer recently posted that modern gas OE turbos run operating egts from 950-1050c depending on the turbo/application. Post here.

+1

and I'm guessing if you couple this with marginal oiling, rapid failure would ensue.

Good read:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t32479-2/