WI questions/experiences anybody got em. + install FAQ
 

WI seems to be over looked by most miata enthusiasts, despite the advantages of better cooling than an IC and more upgradeability, as well as throttle response and boost via a smaller intake tract. So what gives guys why are we all ignoring the water boy. Methanol also helps lower afr's and egt's while keeping the water from quenching the flame of combustion. And adjustable system is doable but not needed provided you tune conservativly and only spray while in boost so comeon guys lets see what we can do to help keep our boosted miatas cool and safe. Any questions comments experiances comparos i have a feeling this will be a good discusion.

I just looked at your set-up in another thread. I must say it caught my attention. Snow Performance makes quality stuff.

Your system is not adjustable? What kit?

Are you using one stage? One injector? At throttle body?

Is that the actavation switch in the center console?

Did you log those vitals before and after?

Are you using water or methanol? Your post mentions both..

Is that enough?




Lastly, Thats some high quality H2O, water boy :rofl:

Not ignored by me, I've been using it for years. First an Aquamist 1c on my JRSC/M45, then on my DIY M62 in addition to the A/W intercooler, and presently the Aquamist setup, but with a Shurflo pump (Aquamist pump died) with the turbo and also A/W intercooler.
The water/alcohol injection lowers the manifold temperatures an additional 65'F.

I believe that WI also helps with spool by adding more mass to the exhaust charge, however, to answer your question as to why more people are not using it:

1) There is not enough experience with setups and tuning right now for most people. The same thing happened with the emanage when it first came out. Some early adopters paved the way for the rest of us and once it reached a critical mass of enough guys doing it and talking about it, the more people used it. Kudos for drawing more attention to it as an option. :) Because the perceived difficulty of tuning it (note I said perceived) people tend to stay away.

2) While some WI can stay simple, it is never as easy as just installing an IC and after making sure you don't have leaks/loose pipes, you don't have to ever mess with it again. WI involves a lot more such as when to inject, how much, clogging, etc...

3) In a similar way, WI involves filling a tank, whereas there is nothing to do with an IC. People are lazy in general, and I completely understand that this is not a big deal, but most like the set and forget deal.

4) The last, but probably one of the biggest concerns is the thought of running out of fluid at some point and damaging your engine.

That being said, I always like tinkering with the car and have researched adding WI to the IC for extra cooling at higher boost levels. Just like you said, the benefits of throttle response (if you leave out an IC and just run WI), ability to cool below ambient temps, earlier spool, and lower egt temps do make WI something to definitely take a look at, BUT those benefits come at the "cost" of a more complex system.

If someone came up with a write-up (nudge-nudge :) ) of a simple, relatively inexpensive WI setup as well as how to tune safely, I think more people would jump on board. There have been some pretty neat ideas in the past such as using the emanage extra injector harness to drive a WI injector, but never panned out.

Would love to see more WI setups/options as this path for turbo miatas has not been as well documented/recommended as others. I think it has less to do with the effectiveness (as it works well when done right) and more to do with the complexity.

If thats the case , why not run a custom set-up using a air to water along with a air to air ic, it's possble to do it, then you have the cooling properties of both.

An air/water IC can only cool to ambient and gets heatsoaked just like an air/air IC so it's actually quite different from WI which adds a lot more than just cooling. It's actually the spool & lower egts in addition to the cooling that make it tempting for me.

Oh I c, :slap:

Ok i will right it up abit better i currently run a 15-20% mix of methanol-water. just give me a sec.

As i BRG stated a comprehensive install faq is what WI needs so here is abit of an attempt at just that. I base the following on the snow performance stage 1 kit i have and what I have read. I shall refer to the Water/methanol mixture as mix to save time.

Single stage WI systems consist of 8 basic components.
1. The pump to pressurize the MIX and aid in the atomization upon delivery into the intake stream.
2. A resevior tank
3. Lines of some sort to take water from the tank-pump-intake
4. Electricity to run the pump
5. A jet to meter out the flow of MIX
6. A nozzle to hold the jet in place and allow it to sprat into the intake while not leaking
7. a switch of some sort either toggle, pressure, maf, etc. or any combination of these to complete the circuit
8. MIX

With all of these any one can install and run WI. The snow kit comes with relays on it but my relay was no good so i just hardwired the pump electrical control to a toggle/pressure switch assortment. The main reason a relay is used is becouse the pump can draw a good bit of juice some where around 15 amps at peak. If you do not have a switch tough enough for this it will soon fail, or might not even work at all.
1. The first issue you have to solve on your install is where do i put my tank and pump. i mounted mine in the trunk becouse it was the only place i had room for it and the battery is easily accessed from there. I mounted the pump over the old location for my jack and lug wrench, and the resevior on the back wall of the trunk as high as possible without ihibiting the closing of the trunk to make this easier i trimmed the top layer of my cap to make it shorter and give me more clearance. To hold the pump in place i took a couple of 2 ft or so sections of strap type style from lowes/home depot you know the kind with holes in it. And after mounting them to the pump in a way that they helped it straddle the indetion left by the stock jack, After doing this i took a few self tapping sheetmetal screws with rubber washers like you use when doing tin roof work and such, and proceeded to Screw down the brackets thus securing the pump. After i did this a set to work at looking at how to route the wires/lines to the intake.
2. I chose to utilize the factory drain holes there is one in the aforementioned indention as well as a couple just above where the muffler and heat sheild travle under the car i would not use these becouse it is obviusly abit to hot there . To gain access to all of this it is best to remove the carpet this is pretty simple and will make working in the trunk easier. After splicing into the battery on the positive terminal and running a line over to the pump with a fuse inline 15 amps purchased from auto zone at 5 dollars i believe, the positive line is run from the battery to the fuse to the pump. The negative or other terminal of the pump is then attached to abit of wire and then exits the trunk via the aforementioned holes. The lines also exit these same holes and once under the car they cross the drive shaft making sure to stay above the suspension and away from moving parts/heat/vibration, as much as possible. once on the passenger side of the car I ran parralle to the fuel lines until i reached the engine bay once there measured out abit more line than i needed to be sure i would reach the manifold and then i cut the line and ran the wire to the pressure sensor (APPadition1) the pressure sensors other terminal was then wired to a good chassis ground be and the sensor was ziptied into place( snow specifically says not to hard mount the pressure switch or you could damage it so zip tieng it out of the way but still accessible is your best bet.
3. Once you have everything laid out do a test run with some water. to make sure the pump/switch are working correctly are working correctly and the lines have no leaks. to test the system you will need a manual bicycle pump or other pumping device with the end cut of so it is nothing more than a rubber hose and some sort of a vac/boost meter, An adapter and peice of smaller than standard inner diameter vaccume line will also help as the pressure switch has smaller than average port for the attachment of a vacuum line. once conected proceed to pump boost pressure into the line via the pump and take note of the boost gauge as hopefully the pump turns on and sprays water in your face. The base pressure of the 140 psi pump that i have is set at 70 psi prior to shipping and will be adequate for up to 190-200 whp of cooling so unless you are pushing some serius numbers the pump is good to go if you are pushing seruis power you are probably abit more experienceed than the average miata boost head and should have no trouble following the manaul on pump adjustment. the pressure switch turn on point is set by ussing a small allen it is either a 6 or standard equivalent but not to worry it is included in the kit. It is recomended by snow that injecting at boost levels of less than 4 psi will cause excessive plug fouling and not help. This being said i would set at 4-5 psi for your baseline tune and go up or down from there depending on how the car reacts to adjust the pressure switch ativation point take the allen and work the allen bolt on the sensor in for more boost before activation and out for less. This is why the Vac boost gauge is important once you have this dialed in at the 4-5 psi range then it is time to tap your intake manifold drill a hole as close to the throttle body as possible but still in a place where it will be accessible and out of the way aas well as be able to make a proper seal. After drilling the hole take the supplied tap and tap the manifold carefully and test fit your supply nozzle if all is well install the smallest jet sent with the base kit mine was a 176 cc then reafirm you have enough supply line to make a connection to the nozzle, and then proceed to install the nozzle be sure to use goop and or a nut to help with the sealing of the nozzle on the intake tract give it some time to cure and then attach the lines to the nozzle.
4. Now all you have to do is run a vaccum line to the pressure sensor and take here out for a spin. You should notice a slight increase in power as the WI kicks in and begins to lower the intake temps. If you do then it is working if not drive it in boost abit longer and look at your plugs is ther are black and fouled then your activation point is to low or your pump pressure is to high. If the onset of injection is indeed 4+ psi try up to 5 psi if this still doesnt help or you are getting detonation(reset the onset point back to around 4psi) then your pump pressure is to high you can adjust it ussing the supplied allen wrench to turn hte djustment screw in and out and, a standard opg or just adjust the pump unitl you get a mist from the nozzle of about 6-8*6 inches around, or pressure of 70 psi or less but no less than 50 psi as the spray will become ineficciant at that point. And adjust your timming to get the utmost out of your car i run the base of 10 degrees btdc and have run 12 degrees but i like the feel of 10 better. DO Not inject before you have boost this will just waste your mix. I have run as little as 5% methanol on my mix but i have noticed that my overall max performance is reached with 17-20% methanol mix. 20 bellow washer fluid wich is about 5% from what i can compare it to on my home mixed stuff works well just be carfull to not buy one that has carnuba or doesnt have methanol in it. Do not run the pump with out anything going thru it this will burn it up in short order.
5. APP 1 I advise that you run a switch in the cab so that you can manualy shut off the pump in the event of no mix tunning etc. I went 1 step further and wired another hot wire to my boost gauge light so that it would ground out when the pressure sensor is turned on. And then i ran a seperate chassis ground to another switch so i could turn on the pump and or light manualy this is usefull when tunning the onset point or the pump pressure as you can run the pressure sensor calibrartion/adjustment without unhooking the spray nozzle or wasting your mix instaed when the pumo would be running a light will come on on your boost gauge. to keep the pump from running when i just wanted the boost gauge lighted up say in the midle of the to verify vacumm or just to check the circuit i installed a switch on the lights power line as it goes to the pressure sensor. thus preserving 2 seprate circiuts on demand. It is very handy the switches where mounted to a piece of 16 gauge steel wich was inturn mounted onto the factory drink holder via some sheetmetal screws. your results may vary.
6. If all of the above seems abit daunting it is only becouse i have tried to be very thoruogh it is realy no harder than wiring in aux driving lights on an independent circiut just be sure to take your time and pay attention to the supplied instructions of your kit and even this if it is helpfull in anyway and be creative. But keep it simple esp if this is your first electronic endeavour remember that first you get it running and then you can get fancy to meet your needs. you will need at least 12 ft of 1/4 nylon tubbing wich can be purchased from your local hardware store as it is also used on refrigerator ice maker water supply line. the snow kit only comes with 6-8 ft of line this will not get you to the engine on the miata. And i doubt very much you wanta splice under the car so run a solid line from the pump all the way to the spray nozzlewith as few kinks and potential screw ups as possible and you will have the peice of mind that you dont need no stinkin intercooler and you can now go fast real fast.:gay:

WI is extremely effective but only up to a point you can get the air to a negative temp and still not make the power unless you have fuel enough to burn for the power. In my experience the 1.6 stock setup with a 12-1 FPR is good for 200 whp past that the extra boost is not being used as you are out of fuel. the 1.8 injectors and a 190lph hp Walboro (with a max of 100 psi fp) will get you about 15-20 hp more as long as you up the boost in accordance. mostly this step upped the torque and prespool of the turbo. With some 305's the 12-1 and a rx7 afm tuned slightly lean with the fp cut off dissabled is good for another 20-30hp from my but dyno i still havent been back since my 8psi base run but since then i am now running 11-12 psi and my turbo flow maps show that at that boost level my limit is 300 or so crank hp with proper fuel and tunning. So there it is a 250 or so whp cooling setup that will make your intake cool to the touch even when the crossover pip is scalding hot good luck if you need some help with your own install's or have questions just drop me a line and i will do what i can for ya.:bigtu: I hope this helps. Man to much typing

some pics in this thread.
 

https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/at...6&d=1156711238 Also these numbers are all achieved on 93 octane gas with no aux timming control.

Break up that monsta post:) Nice info though.

-Did Snow recommend that 4 psi specifically for the Miata? (or factory non-turbo)

-Seems the benefit would be the additional boost possibility, assuming you have the fuel. Do you plan to raise the boost now that the effective "detonation limit" has been raised?

Devils Own has some nice kits and their customer service is top notch.
WWW.Alcohol-Injection.com

A water injection system is a no brainer. The added safety and power just cannot be beat for such little cash outlay. Even a static system with no progressive controller is impressive the first time you go out and make some pulls.I think we would see a whole lot more 300+ whp Miatas that run on pump gas if it was utilized more.

No doubt it works. I'm at 17psi on a built engine and that's the only reason I can boost so high. :bigtu:

I am going to tune a 1.6 with a Super 60 setup in the near future. We are going to utilize a Devils Own kit. I won't be happy with less than 280 whp.

I installed a kit a while back on an SRT 4 that I tune. Its running a GT3076 turbo with supporting mods. He is able to run 21 psi on pump gas no problem. The car dynos at over 400 whp and the ecu allows 31 degrees of advance under boost. IAT's stay at ambient.

I was looking into water injection as an add-on to my air-air intercooled setup.... mostly for safety reasons

I doubt that I'll be maxing out my 460's @10psi, and I have some 550's if they are at a high duty cycle.

what are the advantages/disadvantages of water injection, when used simply to add an extra margin of safety to a setup?

i have seen the devils own kit's after a bought mine when i was looking for bigger reseviors. Snow recommends 4 psi for all apps as a good starting point i have fiddled with it and i get the best plug life at around 4 psi if i go higher then the boost overshoots the activation to quickly and i dont start spraying until 8 or more psi not good. 4 psi gives me at most a start at 6-7 psi when i hit it realy hard you need a fraction of a second for the pump to equlize and spray over the distance on slow throttle it isn't an issue but with how quick my turbo spools i liked the safety of 4 psi. As for WI as a supplement i would run it at the high end of a mega hp setup as the hotter the air is the more effect it has. so i would start it around 7-9 psi with a nice conservative tune to aviod fueling th eplugs and still get the max out of it. I might turn up the boost some more first i deffinitley need a 1.8 dif, and a six speed would also ease my worrys. hopefully i will get a motor to build soon. with all of these i would happily be a test monkey to see if i can take the stock ecu to 300 whp on 93 octance with no IC at that point i would be considering another jet or maybe even a 2 stage system. Thanks guys. Can you believe htey only let you have 10K characters per post geez.

DAMN.

ok this is the thread for WI questions.

i have some!

i have this idea in my head, somebody tell me if this is crazy or if it sounds workable.

i have already purchased a smallish intercooler so i'm still going to use it. but i was thinking that i could augment this with a WI system for when i get into high boost and/or high temp territory. so, at low boost/temp i'm just on the intercooler then at high boost/temp i'm on intercooler + WI .
so i was thinking about fitting a temp sensor into the intake pipe just before the intercooler. this is wired to a variable temp switch so that when it sees high temps ( such as when i'm at high boost, or there is a high ambient temp) it switches in the WI.
the WI is fitted in the piping just after the intercooler.
then, the temp sensor that goes to the ecu (which in my case will be a megasquirt) is fitted near the throttle body. this way, the ecu is always getting a true reading of what intake temp the engine is getting, and can therefore set it's timing etc accordingly.

clear as mud?? i'd like some feedback on this idea.

the temp sensor / variable switch i'm thinking of using is this one:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView...=&SUBCATID=347

I dont see the point of the switch. The kits come with something that lets you set the psi at which the pump engages. As your manifold absolute pressure rises your intake temps should also be rising along with them(they should correlate). IE at say 5psi you should always have approximately the same resulting temperature from the gas compression. So if you determine what psi your intercooler can no longer cool well enough then you know when you need the pump to be on.

thanks for the reply.

thing is tho, is that i was hoping to get by without having to buy a WI kit. i figure i can knock something up on the cheap and save myself a bunch of cash.

for example, i'm thinking i could build something using the switch i mentioned, the standard windscreen washer water bottle and pump, and a spare fuel injector (i'm upgrading my injectors so i'll have 4 spare). know what i mean?

the fuel injector will rust over, and the windshield washer pump does not have enough pressure to properly atomize the water. The base devils own WI kit is only $180 through wideopentuning's group buy. You wont find a less expensive water injection kit of that quality. Its 110% worth the money.

ok, thanks for the info. i'll check into this group buy but still interested to see if this other idea is worth pursuing.

fatty, i just picked up a nozzle, piping, and a 60psi pump, and a adjustable boost switch for 50 bucks on e-bay. I think the WI+intercooler with the temp switch is a great idea, was actualy thinging about it myself..

Perhaps some general info on living with a WI setup would be helpful. At least, for a WI virgin such as myself.

For example, where can a person buy methanol? How much does it cost? And at "reasonable" levels of boost and HP, how many miles do you get from a (quart/liter/gallon, etc) of meth at whatever concentration you mix at? Assume a lead-footed driver who drives 75% city, 25% highway, making maybe 200 HP.

If one were to use the stock washer bottle as a tank, would the 15-20% blend still be suitable for an occasional window washing? Or will this simply destroy the paint, rubber, etc?

I always just use washer fluid. Its very easily obtainable, you can still use the stock reservoir and clean your windows, It hardly effects your a/f at all. The Supertech blue stuff from Walmart is popular. I guess its around 25% methanol.
Topping up with about a gallon each time you fill the tank is about right if you have a lead foot.
Some of the pumps on Ebay don't have the upgraded seals to live with methanol on a regular basis. Just something to remember.

The usage will vary depending on you nozzle size and pressure at 176cc min you will use 10.56 liters an hour aproximately the typical install has 2 liters or abit more on the supplied tank. The washer tanks we use are about the same size but you would need to find a way to mount the pump under the hood the simplest way is to put it in the trunk. a 15-20% mix shouldnt be very bad for your paint but i wouldnt wash my car with it.

BTW i could use 2 quarts in about 25 minutes covering about 30 miles. on my way to work only 5 miles of highway go figure. :)

You consume that much just driving normally?

i have a lead foot. gallon a day keeps the doctor away. normal Speed limit here is 55 i travel through about 3 miles of 35 and about 6 miles of cop terotory give or take on the cops.

How about nozzle location? before the intercooler, after the intercooler, just before the throttle body, before the turbo.. just after the turbo?

Just before the tb here is a pic.

i was reading an article where a guy put it before the turbo, that seemed like it would damage the turbo to me, anyone heard of this.. and is there any advantage to putting it at the throttle body rather than somewhere else?

A general idea is that if you inject earlier in the air stream you let the water absorb maximum heat. I am not sure if there would be any signifcant different injecting just after the intercooler vs just before the t body. On the S4 install I did I went just after the outlet on each intercooler. On the SRT-4 I went about a foot away from the throttle body. Good results both times. I think on my Gti I just bought I will do it right at the intercooler outlet as well. I would prefer to have it all out of sight.

anywhere from 6"-10" from the throttle body is best w/ no pipe bends inbetween. One problem i see from putting it too far away from the throttle body is that it will allow some of the droplets to pool up.

Also, contrary to what most people believe about WI cooling the charge, there are some published journals that suggest that the droplets are suspended for such a short time that lowering of charge temp is minimal, and close to zilch. What people are seeing as cooled intake charge is actually the droplets collecting around the iat sensor and evaporating off.

Furthermore, the studies suggest that the droplets accumulate on the internal combustion chamber walls, and b/c h20 has a high latency of evaporation, when it turns to steam some of that energy as heat is taken with it. The alky is just burned up and slightly increases octane.

I think one reason why it hasn't really cought on is b/c of the availibility of more advanced fuel mangement for imports, b/c obviously you won't realize much gains without tuning for the WI. In the Honda world, in the last couple of years, ECU tuning technology has advanced in leaps and bounds so more and more people are catching on. As far as i could tell i think i was the first Honda guy to use Devils Own kit. No offense to the Miata community but its discouraging when i look at whats readily available for tuning Miatas, unless you go full stand alone.

Just another food for thought, since the h20 is now used for thermal management, you can run a/fs 12-12.5 where flame front speed is faster and most torque is made, also requiring minimal ignition advance.

On my car i run The Devil's Own progressive kit w/ 5gph nozzle (about 360cc) and 25psi of boost on 92pump.

You run that on your miata or your honda? yeah i know all about my decreased bsfc. i have no ait so all my obsevations are just on what i can see and feel. Feels good looks good no problem. Water or fuel doesnt like to make turns the further it has ot travel the more likely it is to pool in your intake you want the WI medium ot stya suspended asit enters the Combustion chamber

All my WI experiences are done on my Honda. The bottom line is you won't be able to tune for MBTT with out the aid of at least a wideband to get you in close proximity of effective a/f ratios, hence the "feels good looks good no problems" isn't really saying much.

Works so far till it stops being effective ill keep it up when it ends up being unnafective i will probably get a wb02

Mind posting a pic of that? I've decided to go WI, and I'm rather space-challenged under the hood. I've heard about Canadian cars having larger bottles, just want to see where it goes exactly. I may have to move some things around.

I just mount mine in the trunk because i can't stand engine bay clutter.

http://i6.tinypic.com/1zqsv9j.jpg

The progressive controler is fully digital, another reason why i chose this kit, and its a no-brainer to set up. Its also super small compared to others progressive controlers.
http://i6.tinypic.com/1zqsytd.jpg

the nozzle is mounted in a semi stealth fashion on the underside of the charge pipe.
http://i2.tinypic.com/1zqt1tw.jpg

Trunk mount is the way to go for sure. Also, Devils Own has a new nozzle holder with integrated check valve and instant fitting all in one that will be available shortly.

guess I'm the only one that isn't impressed :hs:

I have some new logs I will post from the S4 after the controller was tuned. The results are awesome. I am starting to think that the basic kits leave a lot on the table.

Here is my faq Urban if you still need help