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1994, GT2554r, Low Numbers?
3 Attachment(s)
Been using the car right now for a couple thousand miles and several autocross's on the current tune.
Had a baseline dyno pull done and I feel like my numbers are very low. The dyno operator said it was probably due to the ignition timing. AFR's were rich about 10.9 all the way through in boost on dyno and from wideband. (I will lean the tune up a bit.) The tune is all road tuning done with Tunerstudios. Attached is the current tune on the car and the dyno results. Setup: 1994 Miata 1.8L Stock Engine FM2 Kit FM Intercooler 3" FM Turbo Exhaust w/Cat. GT2554r @ 14psi peak (3700ish rpm) then down to 12psi all the way to redline Grimspeed MBC Innovate MTX-L Wideband O2 RX8 Yellow Top Injectors MS3PNP Stock ignition System 93 Octane 5 Speed Results: 177whp in 4th gear 169whp in 3rd Gear (Dyno Operator chose this) Outside Temp: 92F @ 60% Humidity Beltsville, MD Infinite Speed and Performance Any suggestions on whats up? Attachment 229898 |
Have you compression tested the motor yet?
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I made a thread exactly like this with the first miata I turbo'd. Someone told me to advance my timing 4 degrees in boost and report back. I load a new tune, pull out of my neighborhood, roll in the gas, and my clutch lets go. You get some serious power from properly tuned timing, and it looks to me like you've got plenty of safety built into that tune timing wise.
Somewhere out there is a "give me all your timings" thread probably from pre-2010 that had some great info and timing tables, but I can't find it now. I dug up an old dyno run I made on 93 octane, bigger turbo than you, and higher compression (nb pistons): https://www.miataturbo.net/dynos-tim...0-19psi-62855/ I'm sure you can dig up others on the site to get some input on how far advanced you can safely go. Datalogging a pull in virtual dyno, then another with +2 degrees of timing from you're current tune would probably be a good start to see what power does. I suspect you'll be plesantly surprised. *I assume no responsibility for vented blocks as a result of my terrible advise, but I've yet to blow my own motor* |
Check timing (cam and ignition), Check compression, Check exhaust restriction, Check for boost leaks.
As in: Were lazy and didn't time your MS3 with a timing light? Did you recently do a "preventative timing belt job" Did you nuke your ringlands from running too much nos, and now mad scientist jessie and I have to tear it down and replace those piston rings you just fried? Did you nuke your cat from running that ridiculously rich AFR? My car shoots 2 foot flames if it gets that rich. Damn I need a flex fuel sensor. Did you check for any number of places it could leak after your boost is being measured? |
Jeez that timing map is awful. the fuel map is somehow worse. your AFR table is the worse I've ever seen.
surprised it made it to the dyno... https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0137691310.png this is doing you no favors either: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ae790b1693.png |
Originally Posted by Forrest95M
(Post 1429492)
Have you compression tested the motor yet?
Before I turbo'd, it had great numbers across all 4 cylinders. Haven't had any indication of loss of compression. (No smoke from exhaust,No oil burning whatsoever, Good idle/ Vaccuum Readings.)
Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas
(Post 1429537)
Check timing (cam and ignition), Check compression, Check exhaust restriction, Check for boost leaks.
As in: Were lazy and didn't time your MS3 with a timing light? Did you nuke your cat from running that ridiculously rich AFR? My car shoots 2 foot flames if it gets that rich. Damn I need a flex fuel sensor. Did you check for any number of places it could leak after your boost is being measured? No Cat on the car and no flames either from what I am able to see. Boost is measured off a nipple on the intake manifold.
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1429612)
Jeez that timing map is awful. the fuel map is somehow worse. your AFR table is the worse I've ever seen.
surprised it made it to the dyno... this is doing you no favors either: The dyno operator also said the timing was most likely the issue by the shape of the graph. Is the left timing map your timing map? After reading the Injector Timing Table thread and it seems that to be able to properly adjust it will need to be done while on a dyno. With its current default setting how much does it effect the performance? Car surprisingly runs well I guess driveability wise and its done trips from Annapolis to Virginia and back with an autocross in between without a problem. Currently picked up a used netbook (two laptops have gone down already) that I have been able to tweak the tune quite a bit (basically everything) and the butt dyno feels a bit better. I can't post the new tune file right now since the network I am on won't allow for the netbook to be connected to it. |
you're telling it to finish the injection at 90° -- that's halfway through the intake stroke. That means there may not even be fuel available when the intake starts opening, depending on how long your squirts are.
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Originally Posted by CBMiata
(Post 1429646)
Not since the dyno baseline.
Before I turbo'd, it had great numbers across all 4 cylinders. Haven't had any indication of loss of compression. (No smoke from exhaust,No oil burning whatsoever, Good idle/ Vaccuum Readings.) Base timing was set correctly when I installed the MS3. No Cat on the car and no flames either from what I am able to see. Boost is measured off a nipple on the intake manifold. Yea, I figured the timing map wasn't that good after I saw the numbers it put down. The dyno operator also said the timing was most likely the issue by the shape of the graph. Is the left timing map your timing map? After reading the Injector Timing Table thread and it seems that to be able to properly adjust it will need to be done while on a dyno. With its current default setting how much does it effect the performance? Car surprisingly runs well I guess driveability wise and its done trips from Annapolis to Virginia and back with an autocross in between without a problem. Currently picked up a used netbook (two laptops have gone down already) that I have been able to tweak the tune quite a bit (basically everything) and the butt dyno feels a bit better. I can't post the new tune file right now since the network I am on won't allow for the netbook to be connected to it.
Originally Posted by CBMiata
(Post 1429113)
3" FM Turbo Exhaust w/Cat. |
If brain didn't post it above, I'd use the settings from one of his base maps for your tune. Timing, injector, etc.
Where did your map/tune come from? |
i also kinda doubt the base timing was set correctly and ending up with exactly 0 trigger angle...
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Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas
(Post 1429673)
Why I though you had a cat:
I can't view MSQs at work, but if brain says it is a wreck, well, there is your problem.
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1429688)
If brain didn't post it above, I'd use the settings from one of his base maps for your tune. Timing, injector, etc.
Where did your map/tune come from?
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1429692)
i also kinda doubt the base timing was set correctly and ending up with exactly 0 trigger angle...
I'll definitely redo that. Could this possibly be why the current ignition timing map hasn't caused any driveability issues? Just got lucky? Found out I'll be getting a lot of free time this Friday so I'm going to try to schedule some dyno time so I can properly set things up. Hopefully my clutch foot heals in time (hurt it last night...) so I can drive over there. I'll be sure to post the tune/results. Thanks for the quick responses yall. |
You could have gotten lucky for many reasons, but I think the safest thing to do is run ones of brain's timing and injector maps after rechecking base timing.
You may even just want to start from scratch using one of his maps because they're pretty conservative while being a solid starting point. You'll likely need to change fueling etc anyway, so might as well start fresh and use VEAL again for a drive hitting the different loads and then see where that puts you. It shouldn't take too long and it will be far less frustrating than trying to figure out why some random map you found isn't working... |
The safest thing to do, is, get this.......I know this is gonna be a huge shocker to you rhidetheklit, TUNE THE CAR!!
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^
This. And as a general rule, don't take advice from the hidden clit. Rhoid, you give advice as if you knew what you were talking about. But you don't. |
I wish I could get the site to take every single post he makes giving "advice" in any other thread, and post it into his own build thread, lol
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:rofl:
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Do as I say, not as I do.
Tell me again exactly where what I did was wrong? He found a random map and he's running it. Brains maps are a far better place to start. But yeah, I should probably take my own advice sometimes lol.
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1429800)
I wish I could get the site to take every single post he makes giving "advice" in any other thread, and post it into his own build thread, lol
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You repeat what people have said to you for your specific situation, but it doesn't always pertain to the person you are repeating it to. Because you don't have the basic understanding, this may fly and get you a degree in an academic setting. Not around here.
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Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1429817)
You repeat what people have said to you for your specific situation, but it doesn't always pertain to the person you are repeating it to. Because you don't have the basic understanding, this may fly and get you a degree in an academic setting. Not around here.
One is a self congratulatory circle jerk, where everyone congratulates themselves for proving others wrong, but more rarely for proving themselves right. The other calls out those that are lazy, but endeavors to teach those that make an effort and stick to it even after discouraging results. Many of you seem to despise the former. Unfortunately it seems like many of you have more in common with it than you think. I tend to be self deprecating because I don't have anything close to an ego about anything I do. I do draw a line between insults and humor though. Do with that information what you will. Ps: your comment regarding academic training belies your lack of understanding on how the sciences are taught and tested. Just and fyi. |
whoah. big words....
:giggle: |
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At this point all I do is post memes
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:rofl:
Do you actually believe this? :rofl:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1429852)
Ps: your comment regarding academic training belies your lack of understanding on how the sciences are taught and tested. Just and fyi. Here we are on one of the last true scientific forums in existence. We collaboratively hypothesize, test and make conclusions based on the data we generate. Well, some of us do. You used to not even be able to get any academic training without a basic understanding of what you were hoping to learn. Perhaps this is no longer the case, which would actually explain a lot. Just FYI. :rofl: Thanks for the laugh though. |
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1430333)
:rofl:
Do you actually believe this? :rofl: I said you lack a basic understanding. Here we are on one of the last true scientific forums in existence. We collaboratively hypothesize, test and make conclusions based on the data we generate. Well, some of us do. You used to not even be able to get any academic training without a basic understanding of what you were hoping to learn. Perhaps this is no longer the case, which would actually explain a lot. Just FYI. :rofl: Thanks for the laugh though. |
:rofl:
I am rarely serious, but there is some truth to my statement. Don't be mad. :magna: |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1430493)
Do you actually believe the bolded text above? You honestly can't be serious...
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I can't tell if the lack of entitled noobs on here has actually led to some bizarro world where you're all left with reacting similarly to those actually trying.
You're obviously free to believe whatever you'd like of this community. If you think it's the last bastion of hope for forums maintaining the scientific method then I suppose that is your right.... |
The fact that even you can safely double the power output of your Miata and enjoy it for years, is a testament to the quality science found here. Years of experimentation to develop what you now take for granted.
Kinda typical of modern day academic entitlement syndrome. No offense man :) |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1430550)
I can't tell if the lack of entitled noobs on here has actually led to some bizarro world where you're all left with reacting similarly to those actually trying.
You're obviously free to believe whatever you'd like of this community. If you think it's the last bastion of hope for forums maintaining the scientific method then I suppose that is your right.... And Are you actually trying? Like legitimately putting forth proper effort in researching, learning, applying, observing, recording, adjusting, and re-applying? |
Here or at school?
Enough jamming this thread. |
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1430554)
The fact that even you can safely double the power output of your Miata and enjoy it for years, is a testament to the quality science found here. Years of experimentation to develop what you now take for granted.
Kinda typical of modern day academic entitlement syndrome. No offense man :) As a side note, you legitimately know nothing about me or what I do, where I've come from, and what I've accomplished. I'm sorry that you feel the need to hold onto whatever inferiority complex you have with ad hominem attacks. I'm pretty sure that the PM's we've exchanged on here in the past establish that I have nothing but respect for you and the other members here. I suppose I was under the impression that I'd be afforded the same courtesy. Apparently not.
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1430557)
What other forums do you frequent that are like this one?
And Are you actually trying? Like legitimately putting forth proper effort in researching, learning, applying, observing, recording, adjusting, and re-applying? You also realize that I don't post everything I do on here right? I have friends that I talk to about this stuff and regularly go over logs and tunes with them. Apparently the fact that I document a few of the 'duh' moments I have because I find them to be amusing as someone that is completely new to this have given you the impression that what I write about us all I do. Interesting. I also spend a fair amount of time hanging out with friends that are subie mechanics who have been teaching me to wrench partially because they think it's hilarious that I'm even interested and partially because it's fun. Of note: I've read a ton of posts written years ago by you, aidan, and other now senior members. Go revisit them sometime and see where you came from. And you actually had experience working on cars. How many members actually spend the time trying to learn how to tune instead of just dropping the car off with a tuner? Obviously nothing wrong with that, but I'm guessing it's less than half the members.
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1430560)
Here or at school?
Enough jamming this thread. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding academia (and busm lol). Show me on the doll where they hurt you. |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1430576)
Weird... I thought that was because of guys like Corky and the mazda folks that engineered the miata using parts that were on cars that already put out more power in both the US and Japanese markets.
As a side note, you legitimately know nothing about me or what I do, where I've come from, and what I've accomplished. I'm sorry that you feel the need to hold onto whatever inferiority complex you have with ad hominem attacks. I'm pretty sure that the PM's we've exchanged on here in the past establish that I have nothing but respect for you and the other members here. I suppose I was under the impression that I'd be afforded the same courtesy. Apparently not. The bike racing and SV650 forums I used to frequent come to mind right away. You also realize that I don't post everything I do on here right? I have friends that I talk to about this stuff and regularly go over logs and tunes with them. Apparently the fact that I document a few of the 'duh' moments I have because I find them to be amusing as someone that is completely new to this have given you the impression that what I write about us all I do. Interesting. I also spend a fair amount of time hanging out with friends that are subie mechanics who have been teaching me to wrench partially because they think it's hilarious that I'm even interested and partially because it's fun. Of note: I've read a ton of posts written years ago by you, aidan, and other now senior members. Go revisit them sometime and see where you came from. And you actually had experience working on cars. How many members actually spend the time trying to learn how to tune instead of just dropping the car off with a tuner? Obviously nothing wrong with that, but I'm guessing it's less than half the members. Uh because you know oh so much about the latter? You seem to have a chip on your shoulder regarding academia (and busm lol). Show me on the doll where they hurt you. which posts? specifically |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1430579)
:bowrofl: aww he mad
which posts? specifically Which posts? Jesus. You want me to go back through all the the threads I've read on this site? You legitimately have no idea how much I've actually searched and read through lol. Regardless, many of you have forgotten what it took to get you to where you are today. |
:bowrofl:
Don't be mad, just razzin' ya. It's true I do have a chip on my shoulder about BUSM and modern academia. They never hurt me, upper level BUSM are just crooked and unethical. I know because I used to hang out with a bunch of them, like you hang out with Subaru mechanics. I also see that modern academia is full of administrators, just trying to keep themselves employed by selling degrees and treating students like cash cow customers. You don't see this because you are a student and they hide it from most people(especially students.) You know very little about me too. I don't wish to make you mad Rish, just my opinion about modern academia. We still love and respect you for being part of our community But again, enough jamming this thread. We can have this discussion in your build thread. |
Responded to your post in my thread. It needed some love anyway.
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3 Attachment(s)
Update: Had car tuned at York Automotive in Mt. Airy, MD
Car feels very strong. The print out seems weird though since it only has HP and not Torque. Also, there seems to be a torque dip between 4000 and 4800 RPM What do yall think? 194 Whp@ 6000 RPM 183.86 FtLb @ 5000 RPM Attached are the two printouts I was given and an excel graph of the printout. |
How much boost? Same as your OP? Torque dip is strange and your motor seems to be falling on its face a bit too hard past 6k. I didn't think NA8 heads were that bad...
Is the car still hitting 14 psi sub 4k then tapering down? Could explain the torque dip. Also lol @ my chatter upthread. |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1468616)
How much boost? Same as your OP? Torque dip is strange and your motor seems to be falling on its face a bit too hard past 6k. I didn't think NA8 heads were that bad...
Is the car still hitting 14 psi sub 4k then tapering down? Could explain the torque dip. Also lol @ my chatter upthread. The dyno print out did not provide vacuum/boost numbers or AFR values. |
170 foot pounds of torque from 3800 to 6000 sounds pretty reasonable for such a small turbo. I'm sure it could benefit from some additional tuning in tweaking and probably some efficiency upgrades. A 3in exhaust, catalytic converter delete, and a free-flowing muffler will help any turbo car.
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