NB2 vvt vics AVO gt2560 17psi - 264hp 253tq
Car:
02 NB2 94 block, VVT head, Vics manifold stock (8.8?) pistons w/new rings eBay rods w/arp bolts ACL Race bearings stock size AVO Cast manifold, 2560 Turbo w/billet compressor wheel (from S14 silvia) 2.5" downpipe, 3" catless exhaust, MT bigass magnaflow muffler. MS3, FF640 injectors 93 octane gas. today's best pull: 264 whp and 253 wtq at ~17 psi Dyno run and timing map attached. (dont mind the super rich AFR, my MS3 was showing a solid 11.3-11.5 under boost. must be the dyno tailpipe sniffer). or my wideband. donno which one is not correct.) What you guys think? any more power left in this snail? or maybe more timing? https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ff6184f51a.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a008f19076.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1a42d89d1a.jpg |
I would consider that to be very strong.
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Looks good. It would spool a bit better with modern hotside parts, but nothing to fret about. Timing map could use a bit more work too
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It probably doesn't need more timing in my opinion.
I'd call it strong also, given the old-school parts. Dann |
yeah not more, just smoother transitions
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according to compressor maps on line, you have 5psi to go before you are off the larger efficiency island. So, yeah, more in the turbo.
Crank it to 22psi see what happens. |
Originally Posted by thumpetto007
(Post 1448316)
according to compressor maps on line, you have 5psi to go before you are off the larger efficiency island. So, yeah, more in the turbo.
Crank it to 22psi see what happens. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1448311)
Looks good. It would spool a bit better with modern hotside parts, but nothing to fret about. Timing map could use a bit more work too
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Huh. I'd have expected a bit more with the billet wheel.
You're not running EBC, right? The additional spool should make things way more fun. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1448311)
Looks good. It would spool a bit better with modern hotside parts, but nothing to fret about. Timing map could use a bit more work too
Any pointers on the timing map would be greatly appreciated.
Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1448313)
It probably doesn't need more timing in my opinion.
I'd call it strong also, given the old-school parts. Dann
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1448324)
lol, no. At 22psi you're just overspeeding the turbo. The gains are minimal beyond 18psi on a 2560R. 30whp more power at this power level is max shaft RPM for the turbo. There's proably 15-20whp in the intake manifold, all above 5500rpm, but there's nothing left in additional boost here.
here is the open loop table i had to run. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cd72dc1e1c.jpg
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1448366)
Huh. I'd have expected a bit more with the billet wheel.
You're not running EBC, right? The additional spool should make things way more fun. Running open loop for now, i tried closed loop, but it would oscilate by 2psi up and down, so still learning how to make closed loop work. i think spool is decent, 200tq at 3250rpm is inline with most other 2560r dynos i see posted here. but i am sure closed loop will speed up spool and transient response. |
actually I didn't look at the plot close enough. saw peak torque around 4 hence that post. you're right, 200tq at 3200 is actually good, real good. the mani and dp on the avo kits had some serious cheater bends if I'm not mistaken.
I wouldn't push it further either, there are like a handful of miata's that hit 300 on a 2560, and all of them were pushed to the absolute limit. 22psi is way too much, ignore Marcello's post, you're totally fine. timing map: why do you have a dip around idle? no need for that, if the car cant' idle steady without it, you've some idle tuning to do. also cruise cells can use 1-2*, and then you got the timing pretty aggressive from 100kpa-160kpa, but then it plumets 5* at 180. I don't really see why. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1448399)
actually I didn't look at the plot close enough. saw peak torque around 4 hence that post. you're right, 200tq at 3200 is actually good, real good. the mani and dp on the avo kits had some serious cheater bends if I'm not mistaken.
I wouldn't push it further either, there are like a handful of miata's that hit 300 on a 2560, and all of them were pushed to the absolute limit. 22psi is way too much, ignore Marcello's post, you're totally fine. timing map: why do you have a dip around idle? no need for that, if the car cant' idle steady without it, you've some idle tuning to do. also cruise cells can use 1-2*, and then you got the timing pretty aggressive from 100kpa-160kpa, but then it plumets 5* at 180. I don't really see why. The 12* at 1k rpm and 15* below, my tuner did that, he said the 15* will help catch the rpms if they dip too low. the tuner actually had 10* instead of 12*. i upped it to 12 while trying to combat a strange stalling problem i am having when coming to a stop with the clutch depressed. im still having this once is a while stalling. ill interpolate 160-180-200, i think this will bring the numbers closer together. also set idle at 10* better? https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c7ad09638a.jpg I will give this map a try later tonight, see how it idles and boosts in 180kpa area AVO manifolds are actually pretty nice, cyl 2-3-4 points right at the turbo, only cyl 1 far away. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6f6af26458.jpg Ive seen the squared off Avo downpipes, i dont think i have one of those, mine looks like a normal 2.5" DP https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d325ff3f0a.jpg |
Yes and Yes.
Pretty solid overall, and congrats on the numbers. |
Is there a reason why you open the wastegate at 2000 rpm?
You should keep it closed until your target, which with the 2560r should hit 17 by 3400-3500 rpm, I bet your spool would be way better like that. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1448417)
Yes and Yes.
Pretty solid overall, and congrats on the numbers. took it out for a drive, seems to idle fine, time will tell. playing with closed loop this weekend, following your megathread, but currently my head is in information overload. so much info in the EBC thread.
Originally Posted by yossi126
(Post 1448428)
Is there a reason why you open the wastegate at 2000 rpm?
You should keep it closed until your target, which with the 2560r should hit 17 by 3400-3500 rpm, I bet your spool would be way better like that. |
Now I've seen the pics your manifold and downpipe look alright.
Dann |
My goal is to hit these #s on the mk setup. :)
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Originally Posted by borka
(Post 1448442)
Thanks for the input, much appreciated.
took it out for a drive, seems to idle fine, time will tell. playing with closed loop this weekend, following your megathread, but currently my head is in information overload. so much info in the EBC thread. I dont think any boost is happening before 2k rpm, 2-3 psi maybe? so the wategate is closed by the spring anyhow. I suggest you look up Greg's video about boost control. |
Originally Posted by yossi126
(Post 1448483)
Just by opening the wastegate you limit boost.
I suggest you look up Greg's video about boost control. the ZERO number in that table below 2000rpm represent a fully open boost control solenoid, and at 2000rpm i am calling the solenoid to CLOSE to the value of 48 to start increasing boost. for example, if that table had ALL zeroes in it, in every cell, then its basically not having boost control active and running off the wastegate mechanical spring. The higher the number, the less air goes to the wastegate, the more boost you build. and in open loop boost control, you cannot hold the wastegate shut until boost target, only closed loop does this, which i am currently experimenting with. |
Enjoy your car as it is then. Not going to argue with you.
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Originally Posted by yossi126
(Post 1448483)
Just by opening the wastegate you limit boost.
I suggest you look up Greg's video about boost control. |
Lol @ referencing gregs video
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great numbers!! I think you would be a good candidate for the skunk 2 manifold. On a setup like yours I bet a higher flowing IM could net you 280+
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nope
the new junk2 nutswinging is starting to get really old. esp since we've yet to see any conclusive evidence of it's superiority |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1448813)
nope
the new junk2 nutswinging is starting to get really old. esp since we've yet to see any conclusive evidence of it's superiority |
I don't usually redline the engine and when pushing it, shift around 6k anyhow. So I don't think gaining a few hp between 6-7k will be beneficial to me.
I am probably going to dial down the boost a bit to around 15psi and leave it there. The engine and turbo feels happier there, not being pushed too much. Should be about 250hp and it's plenty enough power. I'm already spinning 2nd gear, even with my tall gearing. 5spd and 3.9. |
Originally Posted by borka
(Post 1448817)
I don't usually redline the engine and when pushing it, shift around 6k anyhow. So I don't think gaining a few hp between 6-7k will be beneficial to me.
I am probably going to dial down the boost a bit to around 15psi and leave it there. The engine and turbo feels happier there, not being pushed too much. Should be about 250hp and it's plenty enough power. I'm already spinning 2nd gear, even with my tall gearing. 5spd and 3.9. |
Originally Posted by andyfloyd
(Post 1448815)
lol, notice i said "could". Of course its speculation on my part but I dont see why not. Im not swinging from any nuts just stating my opinion from 13+ years of miata experience.
next thing you know it will be regurgitated by the n00bs as a definitive fact. no idea why you even mention the experience part. if anything it makes you look bad speculating on a new and untested product. OP, I think the handful of ponies you'll give up by lowering the pressure will be more than worthwhile by putting much less stress on the little turbo. good idea |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1448822)
we both know this speculation is downright silly, esp since it's been stated (by various people) in at least a few threads now.
next thing you know it will be regurgitated by the n00bs as a definitive fact. no idea why you even mention the experience part. if anything it makes you look bad speculating on a new and untested product. OP, I think the handful of ponies you'll give up by lowering the pressure will be more than worthwhile by putting much less stress on the little turbo. good idea |
Solid setup!
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Hmmm.
Has your VVT been tuned? You'd maybe lose a bit less up top with a bit more fine tuning there, no? Sounds like it's time for a 2871 :firedevil |
VVT is 'turned off' up there.
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Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1448849)
VVT is 'turned off' up there.
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1449025)
Didn't notice that, thanks. That could have something to do with things!
What it does is adds low end and mid range torque, zero effect on top end power. no 2871 for me. 2560 at 15-16 psi is plenty of power. I'm already spinning 1st and 2nd. Anything more is just overkill and not needed on a miata. |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1449025)
Didn't notice that, thanks. That could have something to do with things!
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1449038)
Umm, you don't actually understand how vvt works. Please read up
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At idle the VVT is in a 'resting' position. As you approach the midrange the VVT moves the cam, more with more load, and by the time you're at 6000rpm the VVT is back in its resting position until redline regardless of load.
Your peak Hp is at an RPM where the VVT has little to no effect. As a result you won't increase the peak RWHP by 'tuning VVT'. You follow me? Dann |
He doesn't follow, it goes in one eye and out the other.
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Originally Posted by nitrodann
(Post 1449056)
At idle the VVT is in a 'resting' position. As you approach the midrange the VVT moves the cam, more with more load, and by the time you're at 6000rpm the VVT is back in its resting position until redline regardless of load.
Your peak Hp is at an RPM where the VVT has little to no effect. As a result you won't increase the peak RWHP by 'tuning VVT'. You follow me? Dann I think I'd read about this before, but this made it click for me. Certainly explains why the vvt head helps with the 'midrange' then haha. |
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