I would love to see this setup with a squaretop as well. It would be interesting to see the gains past 5500 rpm since that seems to be where the squaretop really shines.
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Originally Posted by borka
(Post 1528543)
Looking good.
Your timing is likely pretty conservative, as i made 309whp and 273tq on 17psi. but with a rods only motor, 94 pistons, and a 200k mile untouched vvt head. On my Medium boost canister, wastegate only, the boost starts at 9psi and then jumps to 10-11psi and holds to redline. making 250hp, so its interesting to see yours actually holds 9psi to redline. maybe you have slightly less preload than me. My setup is likely pretty maxed out, You have lots more power to unleash! heres my dyno: [pic removed to save a cat] Post your timing map, if you dont mind, i am curious to compare it to mine: [pic removed to save a cat]
Originally Posted by andyfloyd
(Post 1528592)
I would love to see this setup with a squaretop as well. It would be interesting to see the gains past 5500 rpm since that seems to be where the squaretop really shines.
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You are reasonable. You will live a long and prosperous life.
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Originally Posted by borka
(Post 1528543)
Post your timing map, if you dont mind, i am curious to compare it to mine:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2bb99a91af.jpg Really similar. About 4 degrees less at 160, at 220 I'm at 14 degrees, but only drop to 13 at 240 vs. your 11 a 250. Definitely splitting hairs at that point. |
This looks like a nice graph! I am just surprised I can hit the same 175ftlbs at 3200 rpm with my stock 1.6 and TD04L-13T. But I get blown out of the water after that. Really drives home how well these things spin up for being such "big" turbos!
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Originally Posted by curly
(Post 1528649)
Really similar. About 4 degrees less at 160, at 220 I'm at 14 degrees, but only drop to 13 at 240 vs. your 11 a 250. Definitely splitting hairs at that point.
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Originally Posted by UK_Miata_Parts
(Post 1528574)
Not giving away for free haha, but he might be able to talk us into a discount once he gets it back on the dyno with the squaretop and show the results ;)
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Very nice.
For Science, I would be willing to loan my port matched Squaretop (to Skunk2 TB) to see what happens to the dyno plot, if you want to do some more pulls and see what that investment will net you. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1528498)
Squaretop would be worth, oh, 40whp on this car with no other changes. :party:
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Yeah Ken Hill already has this well documented guys. Look at his thread. Surrender your cats.
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Originally Posted by Arca_ex
(Post 1529343)
Yeah Ken Hill already has this well documented guys. Look at his thread. Surrender your cats.
I know that Savington has built customer cars with both VICS and Squaretop manifolds - and in my hazy memory said that sometimes on a street car there are situations where the VICS may be preferable.. |
The only reason I use a VICS manifold in certain builds is to tamp down on high-RPM power for specific race classes (ST4 or Supermiata S1). In those classes, it is easy to select the "right" combination of parts and end up with a car that refuses to make less than 240-250whp, even at low boost. The EFR's turbine is so efficient (compared to the common Garrett T25/T28 turbine configs) that any decrease in intake restriction will result in a system flow increase, even without increasing the measured boost level. By using the "wrong" parts (VICS manifold), I can maintain similar mid-range torque and tamp down on top-end flow, effectively avoiding those issues.
In cars that jump between race classes, I can then just turn up the boost and blow 300whp through a VICS at 2-3psi more than it would take to make that power on a squaretop, because the EFR's high-PR compressor efficiency lets me do that too. On my own 450whp street car, I used a Squaretop. IOW, I use the VICS manifold as a built-in power restrictor. If you don't want to restrict power, don't use one ;) |
Great explanation, thanks. Guess that's another job that needs to be added to the list then :)
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So, about my offer ... :)
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Originally Posted by dleavitt
(Post 1528402)
Power mods are finally complete!
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Sorry for the delayed reply, been neck-deep in work.
Originally Posted by Mobius
(Post 1529288)
Very nice.
For Science, I would be willing to loan my port matched Squaretop (to Skunk2 TB) to see what happens to the dyno plot, if you want to do some more pulls and see what that investment will net you.
Originally Posted by Mobius
(Post 1529495)
So, about my offer ... :)
That being said, if I recall your motor is largely similar to mine (+1 CNC head, 8.6:1 pistons, etc.) save for the intake manifold. I'd be willing to share dyno time for science and we could do same-day runs once build v.3.0 is up and running.
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1529507)
I call shenanigans
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1529402)
The only reason I use a VICS manifold in certain builds is to tamp down on high-RPM power for specific race classes (ST4 or Supermiata S1). In those classes, it is easy to select the "right" combination of parts and end up with a car that refuses to make less than 240-250whp, even at low boost. The EFR's turbine is so efficient (compared to the common Garrett T25/T28 turbine configs) that any decrease in intake restriction will result in a system flow increase, even without increasing the measured boost level. By using the "wrong" parts (VICS manifold), I can maintain similar mid-range torque and tamp down on top-end flow, effectively avoiding those issues.
In cars that jump between race classes, I can then just turn up the boost and blow 300whp through a VICS at 2-3psi more than it would take to make that power on a squaretop, because the EFR's high-PR compressor efficiency lets me do that too. On my own 450whp street car, I used a Squaretop. IOW, I use the VICS manifold as a built-in power restrictor. If you don't want to restrict power, don't use one ;) |
I think Ken's test is the best one I've seen so far, and he showed the Squaretop picking up a bunch of mid-range over a VCTS. The VICS makes more midrange too, but not enough to be better.
If it is better, we're talking 3-5tq at most, and for that small gain, you give up power starting at 5500. It's a stupid tradeoff IMO. If you want the "best" manifold, full stop, you buy a Squaretop (or you deal with a Junk2 and its fitment/reliability issues and add plenum spacers). |
If you have VTCS and are going through the trouble of changing manifolds, get a squaretop or S2 like Andrew said.
If you're fully broke and insist on changing the intake, VICS offers significant gains over VTCS. But with squaretops going for well under $300 these days, it's silly to spend $100 on a VICS. |
Originally Posted by dleavitt
(Post 1531095)
Mobius, thank you for your generous offer. However, at this point I'll have to pass in the name of marital harmony. Going to try and keep my time in the garage to a minimum this summer.
That being said, if I recall your motor is largely similar to mine (+1 CNC head, 8.6:1 pistons, etc.) save for the intake manifold. I'd be willing to share dyno time for science and we could do same-day runs once build v.3.0 is up and running. Not sure when I'm going to be running boost again, little things I want from Andrew like a radiator and an intercooler are out of stock with no ETA. There are workarounds I suppose if I get to where I'm ready to drop the engine in. |
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