Adaptronic and Megasquirt in a NBB price/setup/performance comparison ?'s
 

I am learning.....slowly........ about MS and Adaptronic.

I dont want to fuel a fire on this debate as to which is better but I would like to know if an NBB with MS will be a happy marriage, not a 6 month fling?

I am slowly gathering info on a DIY inexpensive piece by piece turbo build.

I want to start with an ECU added to my stock motor/factory ECU.

Then I plan on going Turbo (6-8psi) with no IC for a few months and then add IC (but stay at a high of 12psi) Looking for response more than peak HP. I'm in Alberta so no emissions or testing will ever be done.

I like Adaptronics ease of install/setup and compatability/features with the NBB. I dont like the over $1000 cost. That hurts my "inexpensive turbo build" parameters.


MS: I like the cost and numbers of people who have experience with it, but.....but I see that it may not be as "kind" to newbs as myself when it comes to install and setup for an NBB. Am I correct in thinking that under $600 will get me a MS NBB MS build? Then I spend some quality time in setting it up for my car stock - then close the matter.
Then when I go turbo I adjust my cells, spend some quality time tuning it and then done again and be happy with it for quite some time as it stays stable and reliable ??.

Adaptronic = better code, a few more features, easiest to install and get running
MS = I'm assuming you're talking about the DIYPNP, in which case yes it is cheaper, and a great system, but still not plug and play. Ben is getting his up and running but I haven't seen reports of it being finished, and he's the only one I know of that is even attempting this so far.

There is a lot more involvement required in setting up MS. If you know your shit with a soldering iron, electronics, wiring charts and diagrams and can build your own ms, DO IT. It's cheaper.

If not, adaptronic is the way to go. And its not over 1k.

What's the best price on Adap so far - around 850?

If I can get my soldering down what can MS be built by me for 400?

Adaptronic is 950 with the harness I think. Without its 680 I think.

DIYPNP - 425 I think. Plus whatever else to get it to work. It doesn't come with everything needed afaik.

Here's bens thread:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t38806/

thats for the diypnp though. Most people run it in parrallel using a 94-97 CAS and that mumbo jumbo. I think a few setups were sold for 600 or so.

If you are serious about containing cost and seriously considering building a MS, buy the Adaptorinc without the PnP board for 680 as 18psi said, build your own board and save some $. Even then, It's probably not worth the savings. Sure is nice to plug it in, load a base map and start driving.

Oh, and you will likely have to buy a CAS for the MS so that's another $50-60. It all adds up.

That said, I wouldn't (didn't) do it and DIY'ed as much as possible.

A bit sooner and you could have bought my whole setup. It just sold this week.

I saw your setup and prices - too bad for me! Wondering if a deal like that will ever come up again in the next year, doubt it - those were great prices.

Has anyone here done the Adap PnP board ?

I will be selling my setup in the spring:)

(shhhh don't tell anyone I'm going v8:D)

I assume that you mean build your own? y8s is the only one that has done it. It's a shit-ton of work.

Ahhh, another convert.:giggle:

spring in Canada and winter in Cali is the same....i'll be watching and saving. Should I pm you now for some insider trading?

I'm too excited about just finishing up my build, so its too soon LOL
But seriously: come march/april shoot me a pm

Well here's the thing.

If you're doing a parallel, emissions compliant install of ANY ecu, dont bother making a complete pass-thru harness.

Just cut the few wires you need to run what the adaptronic runs. I wont even look down on you for cutting the stock harness.

Then tap into the ones you want to share. It's pretty simple.

you need to sever 6 wires minimum to do the basic parallel install:
Injection 1, 2, 3, and 4
Ignition 1 and 2.

You need to splice into about 10:
Injector GND
VSS
Cam sensor
Crank sensor
Neutral sw
clutch sw
knock sensor
sensor gnd
TPS
and power

then you need to figure out your temp sensors. if you are smart with electronics, you can use a single sensor to feed both ECUs and that means another cut wire. If you're not, and can install a second water temp sensor, you're good to go.

you also need to add an air temp sensor.

so it's really not so bad. And if you hate cutting wires, you can just make your own fuel and ignition wire harnesses and run them to the engine bay through a grommet when you pull the temp sensor wiring.

As far as I know, it's done. My wideband failed, and while it's getting repaired, I grounded the car because I am unable to get any tuning done without it.

"what, what was that, you wanted to build one for me in your spare time for a small fee, ok how much and when could you do that ?" he overheard them say as he went to fetch his pocketbook.........

no really does anyone want to build me either an Adap or a MS? My skills are so so but my time is limited. Time is money so I could pay for that time. I'm selling a bit of S10 and motocross extras on ebay so i'll have some ECU money more than I'll have ECU time.

That is GREAT news. Haven't seen your thread in a while so I wasn't sure.
yeah keep dreaming.
You are in exactly the same shoes I was last year: I was BEGGING people to build me a parallel MS and everyone was either too busy or basically told me to go fuck myself.

I might wuss out and build this sooner than later:

BEGI-S Turbo System 1999-2005 [61600]

change kit to these below and say no to the Turbo:

S4 Exhaust Manifold 2000-2005. T25/T28. [61417]

S4 Separated Gases Downpipe 1999-2004 [61404]

Find a used Turbo and a used Voodoo box. Run 6-8 psi then enjoy and once 8 psi wears off save for the Adaptronic and a IC at the same time and go 12psi?

The Voodoo i can resell and get my money back - all other parts are still usable for the upgrade path

Comments ?

:giggle:

Dude seriously, you doing EXACTLY what I was going to do. I even bought a voodoo box and had it ready.

Then when I put everything together, I started doing lots of reading about the voodoo box/stock injectors/etc.

If you are on 91oct chances are you won't even be able to SAFELY run 8psi. More like 6-7 tops. Next you'll need the fm timing wheel to retard the timing. There is no way in hell you'll get away with boost on pump gas without retarding timing. So you throw on the wheel, dial it back 6* and you should be ok, EXCEPT now your car will be much slower before you hit boost. Cause you will retard timing EVERYWHERE.

So your injectors will be at their limit, the car will be lazy in the lower rpm (before boost), and you will see only about 160-170 *REALISTIC* whp. I know on the site it claims 200whp on 8psi but that's not common. Most make less.

TRUST ME

Just save up and get real engine management, with bigger injectors and an intercooler. I can not stress this enough.

wahh, thanks for ruining Christmas........

then again how many times have you gotten a toy and it seems cool then breaks in a few weeks and you have to buy the same one have it break again, lose interest or tell yourself you should have bought the better one.....just like voodoo vs Adap.

guess ill start saving and wait for you to sell yours....


(30 seconds goes by)

so how much for yours again......

hmmmm - it is winter here with snow and ice

voodoo box=traction control under 2500rpm

sudden boost= loss of control over 2500rpm

:giggle:

yeah man, I learned one thing for certain when wrenching on this car: you don't mess around with stuff like engine management.

I made a ton of threads asking if I could "get away with this" and "get away with that". The answer was NO! DON'T CHEAP OUT ON IMPORTANT STUFF

Then I bought the voodoo box, some supra 305 injectors (the largest the stock ecu will idle), and said "ok, well i should be good for at least 8-10psi". Everyone was saying "OK BUT ITS STILL A STUPID PLAN"

I was so mad that people didn't want to agree with me.


Finally broke down, got the Adaptronic, map sensor, ait sensor, etc etc etc and set everything up properly. Believe me, 8psi got boring REAL fast. And boy was I glad I had everything needed to be able to turn up the boost:D

If you want to do this in steps to keep on a budget, start with the most important first. Proper engine management is the most important thing in any build. Get it setup and learn to manipulate the software while the car is stock and very forgiving.

Learning your EMU is number 1. You're much better off with a computer and learning how to make it wok than ANYTHING else.

I mentioned it in PM, I'll reitterate here: If not for VVT, Ms is the way to go. With VVT... You have compramises. I don't know if the adapt does it and does it well. if it does, no contest. If it doesn't, and you don't mind getting your hands very dirty, try the MS. You can write your own code and build your own circuits for it, which makes it fun.

I put an MS on my friend's car, no turbo, replaces the whole intake with just an air cleaner on the throttle body and it was tons of fun. More responsive, etc. Spent a while tuning it (don't worry about the "tables" - if you're sure you're going FI later, just set it for your intended boost and only tune the half of the table you're using NA).

The DIYPnP is, as they said, far from PnP. the name is pretty misleading if you asked me. It's a nice kit, I'm not bagging on it, but it's not anymore PnP than a straight MS, nearly. My board would be awesome, but for a 2001, you'll have the same issue - not PnP, and you'll be doing wiring.

I'd say, much as it seems a waste right now - buy the best computer you can, or find a stand alone VVT controller and get a standard MS. DON'T RUN IN PARALLEL. The absolutely trivial stuff is the fans and VICS and what not - people who tell you otherwise are pretty clueless. MS idle is workable, depends what you're going to do with it (PLEASE DON'T START ANOTHER MS-idle-is-great-just-everyone-uses-it-wrong thread here. The overwhelming statistical results are that it doesn't work quite right and you're going to make it sound worse by calling us all idiots. PWM warmup works fine and I'm not even responding if someone says otherwise).

Doing a CAS is a totally bad idea, don't do it. My answer would be if you're ok with using VVT in RPM switch mode for a while (maybe months, maybe years) go MS. If not, and adaptronic supports PID cam phase control, do that. Otherwise, find a stand alone controller.

Personally, I enjoy building it myself. From your comment of "can someone just build it for me", the answer is yes - braineak will, and the other answer is "no, you won't be happy with it". Buy a Hydra. :-)

Do you have any info on the adaptronic's VVT options?

Adap does control vvt. Y8s and Prospero will have to chime in on how well, but from what I gather its fairly good.

i let the stock ECU control it.

btw, this guy is lazy. i explained a basic install and it's so easy a caveman could do it and he's whining about making someone else do it.

la-hoo-zer.

I have a 2004. DIY Auto Tune built my parallel MS-I 3.57 with the required accessories and modifications for a total of $537.

Additional costs were a Boomslang, NA CAS, and indentured servitude to Paul for customizing the harness.

I'm not counting the cost of a wideband because that is necessary for any ECU.

I'm curious as to what makes you say the code is better.

Ken

Nobody ever called you an idiot. I just said that you never followed the advice I gave you to get it working. I also never said that everyone uses it wrong; in fact the vast majority get it right after following my advice! The overwhelming statistical results are that for most engines/cars/people it works fine. There just have not (yet) been any miatas that have it working perfectly. I believe Marc D is probably close, but he's not yet called me so I can help him fine-tune it. I only respond every time you say something about it because you are one of the few who has not been able to get it working, and you don't seem willing to try the advice I have given you. Because of that I feel like what you're saying is false. You (falsely) saying it doesn't work is likely to keep people from trying it. Regardless of how it works, if people don't try it and give me their feedback, I can't improve it! (As evidence I call out the recent improvements I made at Una's request on the msextra forums. He's now using it with no issues along with me (on both of my MSed cars), eage8, Phil Lochner, Peter Florance, Jerry@DIYAutoTune (on a miata!) and a whole lot of others whose names are escaping me at the moment). It works.

If someone gives me the specs for the miata's VVT, and better, lives near me so I can test it, I'll make the MS support it (The miata will be the first to get support in that case). I'll write it first on the MS3, and backport to MS2 if there's space to do a good job of it.

EDIT: Actually, that leads me to one of the advantages of MS. Most of the time if you ask for a feature and it's a reasonable one that people will use, James or I will write it. It's how most of our features get added actually.

Ken

I'm going off what I saw/read in lengthy discussions comparing the two on this forum.
Brainiak as well as a few others have pointed out in a few threads. Too tired to search now, but if you ask around more knowledgeable people than myself (that are familiar with both) will confirm this.

Hopefully those people will respond here themselves. If I have that info I can improve our code.

Ken

I'm surprised nobody posted this link yet: We did the second known install of a DIYPNP on a '99 in-house (with a big thanks to Ben for letting us know how the alternator control worked!), and posted a how-to guide here.

:)
And I've built another one, so there's at least 3 known 99/00, but this guy has a 01+.

Then it should have been added five or ten years ago when people wanted to control VVT. I wouldn't call it an advantage if it lags behind almost every other manufacturer of engine management that has been controlling VVT for a while now.

Here's your description:

crank wheel rotates with the crank
intake (VVT) cam has unevenly spaced pulses (one, then two) about 180deg out of phase.
at the extremes of cam phase, some of the edges (rising or falling--i forget) cross a crank sensor pulse and that is no good.

the cam actuates by using a spool valve.
to lock the cam in place, a constant current is applied to the valve to hold it in the middle position (oil does not flow past into either advance or retard port).
current applied will cause oil to flow into the advance port
no current will cause the spring to retract and open the retard port.
I think the full range is 25 degrees.

i do not have the current or voltage requirements though, sorry.

My point was not specific to VVT, I was saying that you have access to one of the core developers (me) and can ask me for stuff, and I'll write it (assuming you won't be the only one using it).

10 years ago there was no megasquirt, and 5 years ago we were just getting started with ms2... We're catching up though.

Regardless nobody started asking us to control the continuously variable systems until fairly recently.

Unfortunately there's nothing here that I didn't already know.

I need at least pictures of the cam trigger, and technical specs for what duty cycles do what for control of the spool valve. Unfortunately I do not have the budget (since we do this open source in our spare time) to go buy one of these miatas to write the code for it, so if anyone has actual specs for it all in a factory service manual or any other form, that would help.

I notice that you're not too far from me. If you didn't mind me poking around your engine bay a bit, or maybe taking a look at the cam trigger wheel, that would give me a very good start.

Ken

i let the stock ECU control it.

btw, this guy is lazy. i explained a basic install and it's so easy a caveman could do it and he's whining about making someone else do it.

la-hoo-zer.

I'm still learning about all this and yes easy and cheap would be nice so having it done for me would be the lazy way I suppose.

The car is my DD and in winter I'd like to have minimun downtime. I'm not too confident with my wiring. I'm feeling all this out to see what when and how I'm going to do this as it's my first time doing more with wiring than HId's with relays, stereo's and so forth. I dont want to screw up my motor or and expensive ECU.

I'm not sure who I can go to for help when the time comes if comments like la-hoo-zer are being thrown around so easily. I had heard the site was known for great technical knowledge with Miata Turbos but that it came with some baggage. I didnt see any of that until now, but its the exception not the rule as far as I see it. I still recommend this site for sure.

I am definately learning as I search, read and then post some beginner questions. Every day I understand more about the world of FI. Thanks to those that have helped so far - this is great.

I'm going to keep following this learn more and see how bad I want to save money and go MS or save up and jump on the Adaptronic .

you can poke around sure. i'm actually very impressed with how hydra controls it (reminder: I now have an adaptronic). seems to be straightforward from a user standpoint.

there are scope traces of the triggers around somewhere. the "cam wheel" is actually the cam itself. hard to show you. oh wait. i saved those images. see attachments. i dont have the PWM output to the oil control valve.


Fine I'll be nice and helpful if only to keep miataturbo's reputation. Search for "adaptronic parallel" and my username. There's a pretty detailed thread on the subject. but seriously, my short and dirty description above is way easier.

That helps, I can see the cam one there. I'll need to get the crank angle of the first crank tooth that occurs after the single tooth part of the cam from somewhere then I think I have enough to start on implementation (and then of course I'll have to test it somewhere).

Also, since you like how the hydra works... for example, how does it allow you to tune the cam profiles? How many cam profiles does it let you select? Does it require a completely separate VE table for each cam timing selected?

For those using the MAF it's very easy... just tell it what cam timing you want in a table, and that's it; the MAF reading goes higher/lower with cam timing so we get the right amount of fuel.

For speed density, most of the aftermarket ECUs I've seen let you choose from a set number of cam timings, (6 or so seems to be the magic number), then for each cam timing, you tune a separate VE table. Then when you're done, you make the engine run with one of the timings selected depending on load, rpm, etc...

Writing continuously variable VVT code has been on my list since mid-summer... and I'd already decided how to do it with MAF... I was just trying to come up with a way to do it with speed density that wouldn't require a VE table for each cam timing.

Ken

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t33862/

Thanks - found it.

I will read and re-read it at home and see if I have what it takes to do it.

I'm way over to the Adaptronic side now - time to skip some meals and hock old goods and save for it.....

The vvt map on the hydra is a 3d map (map/rpm) and it's fixed. you put in the angle (advance or retard) and it does the hard work. note that the hydra doesn't use VE, the fuel map uses milliseconds of pulse directly.

and like changing any other ve-changer, you just re-tune the fuel map after you're done monkeying your vvt settings. really that's not a big deal--just watch those AFRs. what i noticed doing a "quick-n-dirty" tune is that the VVT really only needs to be RPM based on a turbo car since you dont spend much time below 100kPa at WOT. and that's easy to tune consistently.

I also dont know the angles of the pulses, but I do know that the adaptronic trigger settings are something to the effect of:
trigger 1: 720 degree cycle, first tooth at 79 BTDC, second tooth at 10.
trigger 2: 360 degree cycle, "reset"
both "rising edge".

Everything's gotta turn into an arguement, huh Ken?

At least with full access to scopes, spare vehicles, and the ability to take apart my car and gather information (which I've posted all over the place) things seem to get ignored until its somehow public enough.

The point is, stop arguing over the idle thing, and I'd be willing to help with the VVT project.

http://abefm.smugmug.com/Miata/Heads...73_9qNr3-M.jpg
You can see the single pulse at the top, and the doublete at the bottom.

more pictures here:
Checking out the VVT mechanism - AbeFM's Photos

To the original poster - *until* VVT gets working, yes, adaptronic is probably the easiest way to go. If you're willing to hang in there (either with a parallel install or an RPM switch) for MS to develop something - it'll probably pay off. If you really want something very straightforward, listen to what people are saying they have trouble with - regardless of if its possible, if its harder than the average person here can do, do you want to try it?

Matt: Why don't you let the adapt control VVT?

Anyone: Who's used both systems and can compare the software? It'd be unfair to compare MS-I to adapt, but MS-II... certainly can be overwhelming for someone new... I'd love to hear a comment from someone who actually knows both. So far, it's been "I know this about X and heard that about Y"

Ken,
You'll want to see this thread, there's info here. But, give me a bit more info about what you're looking for (perhaps make a thread on MS-IIe forums?) and I'll gather up what data dumps I can.

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t27030/

VE vs using milliseconds is a preference thing really. We like VE because you can make a lot of other changes without having to retune as much (like changing injector size for example... most times you reset your req_fuel and your dead-time, and you are pretty close).

Alright, I'll have to mess with it a bit once I get some code written and in a car. I REALLY didn't want to do what some of them did and create a bunch of tables.

[/quote]
I also dont know the angles of the pulses, but I do know that the adaptronic trigger settings are something to the effect of:
trigger 1: 720 degree cycle, first tooth at 79 BTDC, second tooth at 10.
trigger 2: 360 degree cycle, "reset"
both "rising edge".[/QUOTE]

I'll have to see if I can get their tuning software from somewhere and play with it a bit to see how their settings are used/set up.

Ken

I strongly dislike the spreading of what I see as false information, especially when so many are using the feature successfully. That's the only problem here.

I have not seen a thread with details over at msextra. That for a very long time was the only place I looked for such things.

Again, I dislike the spread of false information. People are using it, it works and works well. As long as you keep saying what you're saying about it, I'll keep saying what I'm saying. I won't talk about it anymore if you don't. ;)

To quote a couple of happy users of the idle code from msextra:

Yep, what I need is those pulses in relation to the other trigger wheel on the engine.

I'll have a look after I'm done with this post.

For once we agree. I have not seen any comments about how one is better than the other. And if they do something better than us, we'll fix that. I've already done the same with features from other EMSs. ;)

Ken

Ken, both adaptronic and hydra put their software on their websites for free. ping me if you need a bare bones map with the NBB triggering setup.

Alright, I figured as much, but had not gone to look yet since I was visiting family. I'll check it out and grab settings from you probably sometime tomorrow.

Ken

Actually y8s I don't need the trigger wheel info after all. I was thinking we were using a generic decoder for this wheel for some reason, but it turns out we have a special one for it. All the timing info is already there!

I will probably check out how they do VVT though, but I don't think I'll need trigger wheel settings anymore.

Ken

Y8s

I searched some of your posts and looked at your dyno. "Most Impressive" - comes to mind. Are there some posts that explain your ability to have as you say "cake and eat it too" while only at 9psi. I see a large turbo that spools early and fast and stays spooled. Do you have a build list. Are there any one off parts that make it work so well or can they be sourced?

Has anyone duplicated the setup here or have similar numbers under 10psi?

I would love to stay under 10 psi and have my torque low and still great top like your dyno shows.

Hey guys I have a 99 miata with adaptronic running 220hp to the wheels and 200lbs of torque, 750 cc fuels injectors, hp walbro pump, gt870 journal bearing turbo running at 10 lbs of boost, i would be happy with giving out my map if anyone needs it its fully dyno tuned.

2870, 750 cc's and 220 hp?

WHY?!? You're running twice the injector you need, probably 3 times. Perhaps you're just trying to save the rods but it seems poorly designed.

Well Firstly AbeFM, with the full functionality of the Adaptronic it doesn't matter what size injectors I have, the Adaptronice gives me full control of any size injector. Knowing this very important fact i purchased the 750cc for the main reason that I could control them but most importantly because it leaves me room for future upgrade of my engine, pistons, rods, etc.= more horespower. And on top of that the 99-00 miatas have no return fuel line meaning that the HP 255 Walbro fuel pump is doing all the pushing, and to add more to that in a returnless fuel line setup the efficiency of the fuel injectors drop to about 600cc, so even though I have 750cc ones it is as if I only had 600cc ones. You understand?

I guess. I'm sure I could work jewelry with a 5 lb sledge hammer, too.

There's folks on here running over 300 whp on stock internals, and people making that much on 500 cc injectors, so... The 750's don't seem like the best match. I'd be curious what your idle is like - not to say you CAN'T control them well down there, but it is harder.

I completely agree there are people getting high horsepower with their stock injectors, but since I got the stand alone i figured I might as well get biiger ones for future prospects, no harm done. My idle is perfect, I had my tuner fix it for me