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Old 05-11-2010, 04:00 PM   #1
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Default I'm a giant e85 freak, I NEED HELP!!!

Alright, so I'm going to have 99% of my new setup by the end of the week or beginning of next week at the latest.
For fueling I got the ID1000cc injectors and Walbro HP255 pump.
Using Adaptronic for tuning (reason I posted here and not in that section is in hopes of getting more attention since this is very important and time sensitive)

What do I need to know about tuning with e85??

So far what I've heard:
1) using the aem wbo2 is ok and no need to recalibrate
2) its ok to hit high 11's low 12's afr since the stuff burns so much cooler
3) I need to inject roughly 30% more of the stuff compared to gasoline.
4) due to its cool burning properties much more timing can be added before you hit mbt.

To start off, should I just take my fairly decent fuel table and just add 30% to each cell to get a rough fuel map? I have NO idea where to start.

What about enrichments, etc?

I've read a few posts in the thread where the supercharged guy went e85 and people were helping him out. Great info but not much of it and I never heard wheather he got it running right.

So lay it on me. and pardon my noobishness. I'm very nervous with the Adaptronic after what happened to my original motor and don't want to "guess".

Thanx

Last edited by 18psi; 05-11-2010 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:33 PM   #2
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What do I need to know about tuning with Meth??
Kick the meth, stick with E85
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:43 PM   #3
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I'm a giant idiot. I meant to say e85
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:52 PM   #4
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If there is a fuel constant/req fuel, as there is in MS, then when you go through the little calculator you tell it you're running on ethanol (or what it's stoic afr is, 9.76:1), what injectors, and it comes up with the req fuel. From there, there is no immediate need to change the VE tables as the req fuel number made up for the differences between gas and E85 for you. If you are running low 11s in boost on your gas map and change your req fuel correctly, you should be at the same/similar lambda values on E85.

I'm not sure there is any real value in pulling fuel to get to low 12:1 (gas equiv) AFRs, mid 11's (gas equiv) are good. No need to change your wbo2, somehow it "knows" what stoic is and knows the relative lambda values for different fuels, so if you are used to tuning to gas, leave it alone and it will display the same numerals for the same relative lambda values. Hope that makes sense. 14.7:1 on the display is lambda=1 with E85, too, which is really 9.7:1 air:E85. Does that clear it up? Bottom line, leave the display alone, and tune exactly as if you are tuning to gas.

Make sure you empty your tank of gas. Try to figure out if you are already in summer blend, b/c ethanol content will be greater with summer blend and the car will run leaner when you put in summer blend if you tuned with winter blend.

On MBT: not sure if you NEED to add more timing to GET to mbt, but you can actually REACH mbt without det with E85, which you can't on street gas. This is pretty simple. Without using a dyno, if you have a running spark table, I'm not sure you want to go dorking with it. If you had a conservative map to begin with, I suppose you could blindly add a couple of degrees of spark angle, but I wouldn't bother with more without some dyno work. If you are running 91, you will be very pleased with the results of your pulls with E85, as I'm sure you will be able to add back like 6* of angle and find mbt, and profit.

Enrichments, leave it alone at first then experiment when you get a chance. In moderate weather I didn't need as much cold start enrich %, but then again, I was messing with a car with some mechanical issues that I won't get into now. If you are talking accel enrich, you are on your own.

Don't be gay. It's just fuel. And yes, you are an idiot.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:52 PM   #5
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Oh, and just because it's alcohol, don't drink it. Beer good, fuel bad.
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:14 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Alright, so I'm going to have 99% of my new setup by the end of the week or beginning of next week at the latest.
For fueling I got the ID1000cc injectors and Walbro HP255 pump.
Using Adaptronic for tuning (reason I posted here and not in that section is in hopes of getting more attention since this is very important and time sensitive)

What do I need to know about tuning with e85??

So far what I've heard:
1) using the aem wbo2 is ok and no need to recalibrate
2) its ok to hit high 11's low 12's afr since the stuff burns so much cooler
3) I need to inject roughly 30% more of the stuff compared to gasoline.
4) due to its cool burning properties much more timing can be added before you hit mbt.

To start off, should I just take my fairly decent fuel table and just add 30% to each cell to get a rough fuel map? I have NO idea where to start.

What about enrichments, etc?

I've read a few posts in the thread where the supercharged guy went e85 and people were helping him out. Great info but not much of it and I never heard wheather he got it running right.

So lay it on me. and pardon my noobishness. I'm very nervous with the Adaptronic after what happened to my original motor and don't want to "guess".

Thanx
Edit: Got beaten to the punch a couple posts up.


Your numbered items above are all correct, and are a good place to start. On my last turbo (Evo3 16g), I could run 6* more timing advance and 10psi more boost pressure on e85 as compared to pump 91 (that's all we get here in CO). I basically maxed out the turbo and held it right at the point of becoming terribly inefficient. This is a fuel that will allow you to make a lot of power, but is also so transparent/unaffected by cylinder pressures that you can find the ugly side of that line if you aren't careful, too. For example, the shop I work for has seen on multiple cars symptoms of valve float *below* factory redline because you can run so much boost pressure with e85 that it actually can overcome the valve springs.

My AEM UEGO reads just fine on the default setting, and there's no reason to recalibrate. My car likes 11.8:1, but others around here are into the high 12's/low 13's:1 and making safe power. I've run as high as 16.x:1 and not knocked, so you can't really rely on the knock sensor for tuning with e85.

Keep an eye on airflow by logging, or dyno tune the car, and start bumping timing up and adding boost pressure until you are not seeing any gains, while keeping the afr's in the mid-high 11's. Once you start to plateau, back off a little and start playing with the afr's to see if you can squeeze anything else out of it.

I have 950cc injectors and a Wally 255HP pump, and it should safely be enough for about 48lb/min of airflow. Here's a handy chart for injector and pump flow rates relating to e85: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/arti...culations.html

Once you go to e85 you won't go back to gas...it's like night and day.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:50 PM   #7
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Holy **** you guys are awesome. Thank you so much for the input.

From what I gather it is nowhere NEAR as hard to tune or adjust to as gasoline? Great.

Yeah I was running shitty *** 91oct all this time, as that's the best we've got around here. People locally that have switched to e85 describe the difference so huge they won't ever touch gasoline with forced induced cars ever again. That sounds very promising to me

Anyways thanx again, I'll be a bit more confident with it.

Planning to start out with my previous super conservative pump gas spark map and go from there if it runs like a champ. For the fuel map, I'll have autotune throw together a rough curve and then start fine tuning. What I was a bit afraid of is the overall "start" point. Should I just use my pump gas map and start raising/lowering values to compensate or should I throw together a COMPLETE different map? My pump gas map in boost would be in the low 11's afr.
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Old 05-11-2010, 08:54 PM   #8
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i just got some 550s im waiting to be delivered, then hopefully next weekend ill be trying e85 too...im not sure your turbo size compared to an ihi vf10 but i have a guy off clubprotege's dyno tuned spark map, and street tuned fuel map if you want something to look at for a starting point. only difference between our cars is we run disty's you guys got lucky and got coil packs...lol.... im guessing ill have to cut the full spark map back the tiniest bit seeing his flows a little less than my vf8 does.... it was tuned with 20psi fading to 18....
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:23 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Holy **** you guys are awesome. Thank you so much for the input.

From what I gather it is nowhere NEAR as hard to tune or adjust to as gasoline? Great.

Yeah I was running shitty *** 91oct all this time, as that's the best we've got around here. People locally that have switched to e85 describe the difference so huge they won't ever touch gasoline with forced induced cars ever again. That sounds very promising to me

Anyways thanx again, I'll be a bit more confident with it.

Planning to start out with my previous super conservative pump gas spark map and go from there if it runs like a champ. For the fuel map, I'll have autotune throw together a rough curve and then start fine tuning. What I was a bit afraid of is the overall "start" point. Should I just use my pump gas map and start raising/lowering values to compensate or should I throw together a COMPLETE different map? My pump gas map in boost would be in the low 11's afr.
It's easier to tune with b/c of it's high octane and heat absorption properties, but let me say again that it will show you the limits of the bottom end of your motor if you don't run out of fuel or boost first. I also easily passed the last 'best' efficiency island on my 16g with e85, and had to pay really close attention to airflow vs boost pressure and find a balance between power production and heat production. BTW it still didn't knock at the worst point.

I've got a dual-image map in my ECU, so that I can switch back and forth b/t 91oct and e85 if necessary. I've only done it when I couldn't find an e85 pump, never voluntarily!

With the proper amount of fuel compensation globally, your car should run fine on the existing timing/fuel maps, so I'd start there and get to tweaking it. My maps aren't all that different with respect to fuel delivery, it's the timing that gets more aggressive and that's changed pretty dramatically. Once you have a nice safe e85 tune, you can start moving timing and/or fuel values around at the point your turbo starts to spool to help it get fired up quicker, similar to the effect of an anti-lag system, too.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:38 PM   #10
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Post up any maps you guys have, anything helps.

And trust me, even though my motor is mildly built I don't plan on exploring its limits whatsoever. I'm shooting for 15-17psi. More so 15 than 17. TOPS. Around 300-330whp which everyone says is VERY realistic considering my setup. We shall see though. Don't want to get too optimistic

Just to make sure we're on the same page, this is the major part of my setup:
00 motor
Mild build w/ m-tuned rods, 9.1:1 pistons, all new gaskets/bearings/belts/pumps.
BEGi s4 tubular manifold/downpipe
gt3076 .86ar chinacharger
3" exhaust
28x7x2.5 fmic (changed my mind about "between the rads" and going traditional)
1000cc Injector dynamics injectors
walbro hp 255 pump
Adaptronic EMS
act xtg6 clutch
6 speed
torsen


That's it power/performance wise I think.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:42 PM   #11
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heres the 2 i got from the guy off cp, his set up is a stock mazda bpt motor with a vj20/vf10 hybrid running on ms1e , he managed 300hp/330tq with these maps on his setup.

heres his thread too from his dyno run

http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44144
Attached Files
File Type: pdf e85 vemap.pdf (545.5 KB, 114 views)
File Type: pdf e85sparkmap.pdf (545.5 KB, 114 views)
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:59 PM   #12
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18, you didn't answer my question as to whether the adaptronic has a fuel constant, like the MS has reqfuel? This is what compensates for fuel type and injector size, then the VE table creates the correct injector pulse width accordingly.

**Important** If you use the same exact fuel map with the same injectors without changing reqfuel (ie, you have the same pulse widths), you will be ~30% leaner with E85 than you are with gas. That would be bad. If you don't change anything with your WBO2, you will see these leaner values on the display. Again, bad. I hope you understand this, I'm not belittling you, just looking out for my little brother.

What I did was take my old msq with fuel and spark maps, changed reqfuel from gas and 450's to E85 and 1000's, left the WBO2 alone and it started right up. Ostensibly reqfuel provided 60% shorter pulsewidths to account for the injectors, but then 30% longer pulsewidths to account for E85. You do the math there, I'm not smart enough. And, again, it started up and ran off the old VE tables, well enough to pull on the trailer and drag to the dyno room.

If you are tuning directly off of AFRs, make sure your authority settings are high enough to get you where you need to be, and make sure you are not going into open loop at higher boost levels like I am with MS. At this point it will run directly off of the VE table, and you could run lean.

Responding to matthewdesigns from above, I wasn't concerned with killing stuff with my 2560R, we simply ran out of flow at around 14psi on my 1.9. It actually wasn't breathing fire, my Begi fmic held that at bay, but I just think the little mouse-wheels couldn't keep up.

We made a bit of power pulling fuel to some extent. We made a fuckload of power adding spark angle. I was sorry to see mbt arrive, I thought we could have had more advance before det. But, current mechanical trouble notwithstanding, I think I got a safe tune with the funny fuel.

I've posted screens of my spark and fuel tables, I don't know what the **** you expect to do with the fuel table without reqfuel values, but whatever.

Good luck, man. We're here for you. You should, however, think about posting this **** on some UFO chaser board, because this place is like a ghost town for people running E85. I figure I can search around for C16 at $8/gallon, or get the same results with the alky and get it everywhere around where I live and work for $2/gallon, and be able to get my milk and cookies from the same place.
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I'm a giant e85 freak, I NEED HELP!!!-spark-map-e85.jpg   I'm a giant e85 freak, I NEED HELP!!!-fuel-map-e85.jpg  
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:16 PM   #13
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as far as I know it doesn't have ve. Maybe some smarter folks like y8s and zxtex or possibly TravisR can answer your question. Or if you want I'll get you a link to the software. If you're ever bored you can check it out. Its awesome, but completely different from ms unfortunately, so lots of things you guys are talking about go right over my head...

The injector pulse widths/dead times are input into a table in the adaptronic, and the ID1000's are claimed to come with ALL that paperwork and info, so they will definitely be set up correctly from what I understand. I read the paperwork, input the values, and adaptronic knows exactly what kind of injector size they are and all that.

And again, I take no offense to anything you guys say at all, I'm here to learn, so if I'm doing something stupid or that doesn't make sense PLEASE tell me about it. In any way you like

I'll definitely upload a bunch of screen shots of the adaptronic software for you to check out though. Its really straightforward and nice to work with.


So by inputting injector dead times it will know the size of injectors. To compensate for the 30% more mixture I'm thinking of bumping up the fuel trim til I get it started/idling, then start increasing the whole map while decreasing trim til I end up with 0% trim and the fuel map where I want it. Sound like a good idea? or retarded babble? lol
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Old 05-11-2010, 11:22 PM   #14
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PS: I just got 5 emails all with confirmation numbers for all my stuff getting shipped out.


CAN'T WAIT
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:09 AM   #15
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thats funny, i didnt even read your sig till you said that, i just seen e85....lol..... guess i just figured you had ms...lol... oh well good luck, i still wanna learn what i can about e85...
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:17 AM   #16
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I run E85, have been for the past year, probably 20-30 track days. I am not technical, guys here know a lot more than I do. I also run Adaptronic. just a few more points.

EGT is about 200 degrees lower.
I have 550 injectors making 230whp, 90% duty cycle.
I shoot for ~12:1 AFR at 6k rpm+, a little leaner (up to 13) below that. if I run any richer than 12, car smokes a bit. I believe E85 will tolerate between 13-14 AFR easily, but I was playing it safe by going with 12-13 AFR, since it is a track only car.
it smells really nice. when I run 100 octane race gas, my eye would water from the fume.
don't underestimate how much fuel you need at start up. shoot for somewhere around 5:1 AFR at cold start up. it took me many tries, but I finally can get it to start within a couple of cranks.
Adaptronic base maps are all over the places. base maps posted don't even have the same basic values. luckily I have a track car, so drivability is not a huge issue for me.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:01 AM   #17
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Funny that Will and I have seen different things with respect to cold start. Of course, I haven't yet started below about 50F, so ymmv.

18, why not get in touch with Travis to get some feedback on what to change. Tell him about your injector swap and that you are running E85 (need +30% fueling) and he will probably suggest how to change your fuel map. I've found him to be very responsive, so you should get something from him quick. You're aware that he posted to gauge interest in doing flex fuel in adaptronic a few months ago, right? That would be win for you.
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Old 05-12-2010, 10:12 AM   #18
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I run E85, have been for the past year, probably 20-30 track days. I am not technical, guys here know a lot more than I do. I also run Adaptronic. just a few more points.

EGT is about 200 degrees lower.
I have 550 injectors making 230whp, 90% duty cycle.
I shoot for ~12:1 AFR at 6k rpm+, a little leaner (up to 13) below that. if I run any richer than 12, car smokes a bit. I believe E85 will tolerate between 13-14 AFR easily, but I was playing it safe by going with 12-13 AFR, since it is a track only car.
it smells really nice. when I run 100 octane race gas, my eye would water from the fume.
don't underestimate how much fuel you need at start up. shoot for somewhere around 5:1 AFR at cold start up. it took me many tries, but I finally can get it to start within a couple of cranks.
Adaptronic base maps are all over the places. base maps posted don't even have the same basic values. luckily I have a track car, so drivability is not a huge issue for me.
Thank you for your input. I'll definitely keep it all in mind when tuning my car.
Is there any way you could post your current map? Or you could email it to me: [email protected]

That would be awesome. Thank you
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Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
Funny that Will and I have seen different things with respect to cold start. Of course, I haven't yet started below about 50F, so ymmv.

18, why not get in touch with Travis to get some feedback on what to change. Tell him about your injector swap and that you are running E85 (need +30% fueling) and he will probably suggest how to change your fuel map. I've found him to be very responsive, so you should get something from him quick. You're aware that he posted to gauge interest in doing flex fuel in adaptronic a few months ago, right? That would be win for you.
I will definitely be getting in touch with Travis once everything comes in and I'm completely ready to get started on tuning.

The flex fuel sensor thread I've read many times, but there were no specifics or eta's mentioned. He basically said "if enough of you are interested we'll get it going". Well a few of us responded with "yes" but the thread never went anywhere.

Unless I'm wrong and missed some updates in there or something.
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:11 PM   #19
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ecu file sent to your e-mail.
hope it helps.
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Old 05-12-2010, 07:58 PM   #20
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Thank you so much man
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