Is ms w/wonky wideband dangerous?
03-25-2015, 03:24 PM
#61
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I don't know about the fuel thing but it recalibrated perfectly. I don't know. But yeah so I'll buy some wires to clean it all up but I still don't know what I'm supposed to do to power the wideband. What about powering off the stock 2nd O2 sensor wiring?
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03-25-2015, 04:30 PM
#63
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^This. One lets you compensate for errors to gain an accurate measurement and the other says, "Meh, it's not our engine." It's similar to flying a light plane when you set the altimeter to field elevation prior to taking flight. It's better than saying, "the ground is around here plus or minus a hundred feet," and just being ok with that.
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03-25-2015, 04:33 PM
#64
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But I would rather know my altimiter wasn't working than think it was right when I was actually about to hit the ground. I mean if I knew it was wrong I could just fly upside down and look for the ground. That's how it works right?
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03-26-2015, 11:37 AM
#65
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My LC-1 didn't work once. One of the little 2.5mm plugs had been pulled out of the socket going to the XD-16 gauge. I will concede that I do live a very blessed life compared to most people on the planet, but I can't say that Innovate is the reason for all of my good fortune.
I also own an AEM. I put it in a box on my shelf a couple of years ago and it still resides there.
I also own an AEM. I put it in a box on my shelf a couple of years ago and it still resides there.
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03-31-2015, 03:09 PM
#69
I'm loving this thread.
I just wanted to comment on a few points I saw.
Warmup
All wideband sensors have a fixed heating element and need to be in their working temperature range to function properly. Most controllers go full power on the heater element immediately and then modulate down based on feedback. The Innovate LC-1 specifically modulates heater circuit in a way that causes premature sensor failure.
Whether a manufacturer chooses to show you a countdown or just immediately show values is just a choice. Functionally, at the sensor level, most are doing the same thing. Ones that show a countdown, I would argue, are the more intelligent manufacturers because they get the everyday people who don't know this to provide some basic sensor warmup, extending sensor life. No wideband sensor will work when you immediately fire it up cold and if you want your sensor to live longer and provide accurate readings, you should let it warm up electrically before firing the engine. We don't all have 5+ minutes to wait before firing our vehicles so, as long as you understand that the sensor needs to be up to temperature for accurate readings, you will be good. If you put the sensor in a place that is too cold, the heater element will have to overwork and my not be able to stay in its working temperature range, providing poor readings.
Power & Ground
You need an excellent, low noise power & ground for any precision measurement equipment. This isn't wideband specific. The LC-1 is notoriously noise sensitive due to poor input filtering.
Analog Output to MS
You need to check for ground offsets on ANY analog going to your ECU, Logger, FunTimeArduinoProject, etc. People like to ground things in different places, create ground loops, and noise antennas all the time in cars. So, check.
Sensor Calibration
The controllers that do not offer a free air calibration are basing their calibration on the factory resistor in the connector of the Bosch or NTK sensor. Sensors drift with age and contamination and it is possible to account for this drift. Unfortunately most aftermarket controllers are still not fully capable and certainly don't offer a closed loop feedback with cal gas or a validation method. To make this simple, in a low cost aftermarket meter you want one with free air calibration capability.
Free air calibration should be done in literal free air ideally. Not 1 day old air sitting in the exhaust, but actually unscrewing the sensor and leaving it out in free, clean air.
Innovate LC-1
The LC-1s were absolute trash. Innovate products have improved since then. When the LC-1 first came out, I sold a fair number with another company I worked for. Our failure rate was exceptionally high within the first few months. Noise problems, sensor failures, inaccuracy, software problems, communication problems, etc. Their LM-1 before the LC-1 was better and we were not expecting the LC-1 to perform so poorly. I suspect they revised their product but we stopped selling them quickly. Personally, I would just toss any LC-1 at this stage as nearly any controller is better.
I just wanted to comment on a few points I saw.
Warmup
All wideband sensors have a fixed heating element and need to be in their working temperature range to function properly. Most controllers go full power on the heater element immediately and then modulate down based on feedback. The Innovate LC-1 specifically modulates heater circuit in a way that causes premature sensor failure.
Whether a manufacturer chooses to show you a countdown or just immediately show values is just a choice. Functionally, at the sensor level, most are doing the same thing. Ones that show a countdown, I would argue, are the more intelligent manufacturers because they get the everyday people who don't know this to provide some basic sensor warmup, extending sensor life. No wideband sensor will work when you immediately fire it up cold and if you want your sensor to live longer and provide accurate readings, you should let it warm up electrically before firing the engine. We don't all have 5+ minutes to wait before firing our vehicles so, as long as you understand that the sensor needs to be up to temperature for accurate readings, you will be good. If you put the sensor in a place that is too cold, the heater element will have to overwork and my not be able to stay in its working temperature range, providing poor readings.
Power & Ground
You need an excellent, low noise power & ground for any precision measurement equipment. This isn't wideband specific. The LC-1 is notoriously noise sensitive due to poor input filtering.
Analog Output to MS
You need to check for ground offsets on ANY analog going to your ECU, Logger, FunTimeArduinoProject, etc. People like to ground things in different places, create ground loops, and noise antennas all the time in cars. So, check.
Sensor Calibration
The controllers that do not offer a free air calibration are basing their calibration on the factory resistor in the connector of the Bosch or NTK sensor. Sensors drift with age and contamination and it is possible to account for this drift. Unfortunately most aftermarket controllers are still not fully capable and certainly don't offer a closed loop feedback with cal gas or a validation method. To make this simple, in a low cost aftermarket meter you want one with free air calibration capability.
Free air calibration should be done in literal free air ideally. Not 1 day old air sitting in the exhaust, but actually unscrewing the sensor and leaving it out in free, clean air.
Innovate LC-1
The LC-1s were absolute trash. Innovate products have improved since then. When the LC-1 first came out, I sold a fair number with another company I worked for. Our failure rate was exceptionally high within the first few months. Noise problems, sensor failures, inaccuracy, software problems, communication problems, etc. Their LM-1 before the LC-1 was better and we were not expecting the LC-1 to perform so poorly. I suspect they revised their product but we stopped selling them quickly. Personally, I would just toss any LC-1 at this stage as nearly any controller is better.
Last edited by Braineack; 04-01-2015 at 06:58 AM.
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03-31-2015, 05:20 PM
#71
The AFR values are a tradeoff. You go leaner, you lose analog resolution. The value you choose for the high and low end are abstract on the design side. It has zero to do with quality. There should be a wider range version out in the future as customers have asked for it. Lambda display option & LSU 4.9 compatibility are strong possibilities as well.
Maybe ask me if I want to advertise and present me with rates and information instead of condemnation and a ban threat.
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03-31-2015, 06:34 PM
#72
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Thanks man I appriciate all the info. I actually ended buying a new mtlx because after calling around, the guy at innovate definitely sounded much more knowledgable on the topic and I also found out that innovate since last week has begun shipping all widebands with the updated bosch 4.9. They guaranteed me that the new sensor will not have any significant real world gains over the 4.2 and if I can get a good deal on a 4.2 that it's perfectly fine and I shouldn't care. Well since the 4.2 is being phased out anyways, I decided I would want to get the updated 4.9 sensor. Luckily I found out that 949 restocks innovative stuff every week so they should have the new 4.9. The item number is apparently the same so the only way you can tell the difference is by looking at the box appreantly. Anyways, I put in a order with 949 and its on its way. 
at $160 I'm suuper happy 
at $160 I'm suuper happy
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03-31-2015, 07:02 PM
#75
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It aint ever up to anywhere near 0. Have you not noticed people hardly ever give props? It's as if people use it only for negs. The other day I maxed out my per day props in one thread because the person doing the build was sharing a lot and I appreciate it. I think I have given out like 2 negs EVER, and those were seriously offensive remarks.
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03-31-2015, 07:10 PM
#77
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Just depends on what you're doing. I give out positive props at least as much, if not more, than I give out negative props.
Typically if something is particularly helpful, awesome, funny, or clever, you'll get positive props. If something is stupid, unresearched, or half-assed, you'll get negative props. Since most of your posts have been in the latter three categories, you've gotten mostly negative props. I remember propping your posts from the trip up the volcano though because they were awesome.
It's simple, really.
Typically if something is particularly helpful, awesome, funny, or clever, you'll get positive props. If something is stupid, unresearched, or half-assed, you'll get negative props. Since most of your posts have been in the latter three categories, you've gotten mostly negative props. I remember propping your posts from the trip up the volcano though because they were awesome.
It's simple, really.
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03-31-2015, 07:19 PM
#78
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I only got so much money and so much time to make write ups on anything that is worth writing up or commenting on. I can only take so many trips to 14k feet with the damn top down with snow and bring a stack of photos for like 5 props or whatever.
Yeah that's you, but I get like -5 for every other post I do. I think my post count is not a reflection of my character but more of how a couple people want to just neg the f outa me. You say its simple, well that means you are saying I deserve my count. Well I say you are F'ing wrong and if you think it should take me a freakin year or sum **** to get to a zero count, well I say thats bull ****.
Just depends on what you're doing. I give out positive props at least as much, if not more, than I give out negative props.
Typically if something is particularly helpful, awesome, funny, or clever, you'll get positive props. If something is stupid, unresearched, or half-assed, you'll get negative props. Since most of your posts have been in the latter three categories, you've gotten mostly negative props. I remember propping your posts from the trip up the volcano though because they were awesome.
It's simple, really.
Typically if something is particularly helpful, awesome, funny, or clever, you'll get positive props. If something is stupid, unresearched, or half-assed, you'll get negative props. Since most of your posts have been in the latter three categories, you've gotten mostly negative props. I remember propping your posts from the trip up the volcano though because they were awesome.
It's simple, really.
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03-31-2015, 07:24 PM
#79
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I have over 150 props and my build is pure budget. Post less stupid stuff and more stuff like Hawaii ****, and s10 stuff. Or research and spend time learning before posting.
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03-31-2015, 07:31 PM
#80
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I even got negged on my Prelude picture :jerkin:
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