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VVTuner with hotside mp62
Anyone running this combo?
Before the flames begin... I do realize this is a turbo miata site and I have a lowly supercharger. ;) I can't find any reviews if this is a good combo or not. It has been out now for months but no discussions. Did I miss something? |
Does this unit suck or do most people go full standalone when wanting to control VVT. I would think with the gains under the curve that y8s was able to produce, this would make a good combo?
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it's really up to you. if you don't already have an MS3 then the VVTuner is probably a cheaper option.
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It pretty much depends on whether you have or plan to purchase a standalone ECU. It is not needed with the MS3 (as the MS3 does control the VVT), it is optional with the MS2 (the engine runs fine without it but loses torque below 4000rpm).
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At this point, I am not sure I want to go full standalone. It would be totally new to me and I wouldn't want you guys to have to spoon feed me. The standalone would have to be pnp, as I am not getting under that dash anymore. I looked at the adaptronic. Auto tune to get you ballpark but $$$$. I also do not want to go dual TB. I rarely have idle droop problems unless the temperature changes significantly.
Currently running a stock ecu with pc pro for fueling. The blower is a SOT hotside with a/a intercooler. I already know that it is not an ideal fueling solution. I am just curious if the VVTuner will make a worthwhile difference on my current setup. My definition of worthwhile is will the difference be noticeable on the street not dyno. |
I ordered the tuner. I would appreciate any and all help from you guys. I am going to start with a similar setup as y8s'. Full retard to 1500, full advance to some advance in the middle and upper middle and then full retard north of 5k. Just curious if I need to tweak that for different loads.
Also, I remember reading that it is a good idea to run shielded cable to all the engine sensors. Any shielded cable from a hardware store or something more robust? Anyone have a source for the female connector on the OCV solenoid? I want to put a separate connector on the VVT pigtail to make conversions easier for emissions testing. |
i run less than full advance. not sure what the values in VVTuner are though. it's about 38 degrees from full retard. and I run that value from 3000 tapering down to full retard at 5000.
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What cable are you guys using to connect your laptop to the VVTuner? My laptop does not have a db9 serial connection. It has a db15, but not sure if it is a video or serial. I see they make usb to 2.5mm data cables but the plug looks a little different than the one pictured on diyautotune's site. The plug has 4 sections vs 3 for the diy one.
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I tune a lot of Honda Engines with VTC (The Honda version of VVT).
My experience is that Supercharged cars like far more cam advance vs Turbocharged cars. Don't be afraid to try almost fully advancing the VVT with your supercharger under boost/rpm conditions. Keep in mind this is for a K Series engine which is a different beast but hopefully it give you some ideas of what you need to try. (Forget the Vtec reference :) ) Tuning Guidelines In short, the better the breathing of the engine; intake, cams and exhaust, the greater the cam advance needed. There is no situation in which best overall performance is achieved by fixing the cam angle to just one setting or using manual cam adjustment wheels for the intake cam. There may be benefits to fitting and adjusting the exhaust camshaft angle, which is not under computer control. • With a naturally aspirated engine the cam advance should be set to maximum just after VTEC engagement until about 6500-7000 rpm. From 7000 rpm (where the cam advance should be near 50 degrees) to redline the cam is retarded back around 25 degrees. This procedure is correct for all commercially available after market cams at the date of release of this software, but camshafts which are substantially different from a Honda camshaft may require different settings. • With a supercharged engine the cam advance needs to be set to maximum (50 degrees) throughout the rev range, with only a 10 degrees or so retard above 7000 rpm. • With a turbocharged engine the cam advance generally needs to be less than stock. This is because a turbocharger generates much more exhaust back pressure than a naturally aspirated or supercharged configuration. The higher the back pressure the more cam retard is needed. With small turbos and stock catalytic converters you may need to retard the cam fully to 0 degrees at 8000 rpm. A log style turbo manifold results in a high VTEC point and low VTC angles - a manifold with longer, equal length, runners requires a lower VTEC point and higher VTC angles - closer to that which a naturally aspirate engine would require. Not got to tune a tunable VVT Miata yet, but look forward to doing one. Let me know what you discover with your Supercharged car... |
VVTuner is wired up and installed. Waiting on tuning cable and serial adapter. I wonder if there is a way to post my table for critique?
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Received the cable today, loaded the map and no start. Grrr! I have a connection to the laptop and have power at the VVTuner (led is on). I connected the cmp/ckp input wire (solid green/solid white respectively) to the oem harness (sensor) side of the car. The output side (grn/blk, white/blk) goes to the oem ecu. I then set the output to NB passthrough. Is this correct? Disconnecting the VVTuner cmp/ckp leads and connecting them back together, the car starts. Using 3Y for crank and 3V for cam from the center 24 pin connector.
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Changed the output to inverted and it started but ran really rough. Note to those who want to change the kpa values on the rows...don't. The roughness ended when I went back to default values. I ended up loading the baseline map and am staying there for a bit. I am getting some lean areas where I have advanced the cam below 3.5k. I believe that is a good thing because I am moving more air = lean. I have richened that area up and it feels better. Still lean 3 to 3.5k and then like a light switch, afr's go good and it pulls. Need to compare it to stock vvt control to get a true feel.
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You shouldn't be lean with the stock ECU - the MAF reads the increased airflow so the stock ECU injectos more fuel.
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Note....I have been exchanging emails with Matt from DIY. I am trying to get some additional feedback from members here.
I verified my connections are good by bypassing the vvtuner's cam control and giving it back to the oem ecu. Drove like stock. Keep in mind the connections for the crank/cam are still going through the vvtuner. My theory for the lean condition is the oem ecu is "seeing" the cam change to a different position than what is commanded. It "freaks" out and pulls fuel via fuel trims. I am not sure why it is fine after 3.5k. Maybe it is an emissions thing in the cruise area. I am not WOT in this area so it should still be closed loop. The oem ecu needs the crank signal to run. What if I disconnected the cam signal to the oem ecu? That way it won't "see" what the cam is doing. |
No cam signal = no start.
Anybody have any suggestions? |
Just trying to get the grips of what you are trying to do:
You have a OEM 01-05 ECU and try to use the VVTuner to get control over the advance/retard? The ECU will always get the feedback of its closed loop control of the cam (since as you figured out it needs both CKP and CMP to run), even if you move the OCV control to the VVTuner. The ECU will try to control the cam but it will probably freak out if the feedback is off too much. Getting a "DIYPNP" modded for 01+ is the simplest option, since you will never get away from the fact that the OEM ECU will see the result of the cam control. You will need a another unit (than the OEM ECU) to control the Fuel and Spark. Other standalones would work and piggybacks might do the trick (don't forget alternator control). I'm unsure if there are some parallel setup possible to keep the rest of the stuff under control (when I had the 03 I liked that the licence plate lights went on when the trunk was open). |
By the way, "Inverted" is the correct setting for what you are trying to do (input crank+cam signal from sensors, output to ECU from VVTuner).
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk
(Post 754874)
Just trying to get the grips of what you are trying to do:
You have a OEM 01-05 ECU and try to use the VVTuner to get control over the advance/retard? The ECU will always get the feedback of its closed loop control of the cam (since as you figured out it needs both CKP and CMP to run), even if you move the OCV control to the VVTuner. The ECU will try to control the cam but it will probably freak out if the feedback is off too much. Getting a "DIYPNP" modded for 01+ is the simplest option, since you will never get away from the fact that the OEM ECU will see the result of the cam control. You will need a another unit (than the OEM ECU) to control the Fuel and Spark. Other standalones would work and piggybacks might do the trick (don't forget alternator control). I'm unsure if there are some parallel setup possible to keep the rest of the stuff under control (when I had the 03 I liked that the licence plate lights went on when the trunk was open). Thinking about loading a map similar to oem below 3.5k and the rest will be my own. Then I will get mad supercharger spool up at 3.5k and be like the turbo guys ;). Considered going the standalone route but idle control is not good. Possible parallel setup but that is beyond my ability. |
Parallel setup is worse than a standalone setup - the stock ECU uses the ignition to control the idle as well as the idle valve. If you pass the control of the ignition over to the standalone ECU, your idle will oscillate.
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No luck mirroring the oem map. It still pulls fuel. I had a feeling before buying that there might be fueling problems. I ran it with the ocv disconnected (full retard) and fueling didn't change. That put my mind at ease. Feel like I just wasted $250.
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 754964)
Parallel setup is worse than a standalone setup - the stock ECU uses the ignition to control the idle as well as the idle valve. If you pass the control of the ignition over to the standalone ECU, your idle will oscillate.
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Hmmm, what about using a msm ecu in place of my ecu? It should be PNP as they share the same connections and no freaking out?
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Originally Posted by stratosteve
(Post 755172)
Hmmm, what about using a msm ecu in place of my ecu? It should be PNP as they share the same connections and no freaking out?
But changing the ECU on the 01+ means fiddling with the keys/immo IIRC (or this might just be FUD). But you can still get into the problem of the ECU freaking out since it doesn't anticipate that the signal from the Cam sensor should move in relation to the Crank (does a nonVVT NB start/run with the intake cam advanced two teeth?). If you could move the cam sensor to read a nub on the exhaust cam wheel (as on the MSM and 99-00, but they use the intake cam wheel) you might be in a better shape. But where and how to make sure you place it at the correct degrees in relation to the crank is another matter. |
Originally Posted by M-Tuned
(Post 755058)
Not on my 2000SE. I have a parallel setup and my idle is rock solid. All the full standalone MS guys around are quite jealous of my idle.
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk
(Post 755195)
It looks like the harness is near identical. The yellow on 4D is part of the OCV (together with the Violet/Yellow at 4R) with VVT and the signal to the Wastegate control on the MSM.
But changing the ECU on the 01+ means fiddling with the keys/immo IIRC (or this might just be FUD). But you can still get into the problem of the ECU freaking out since it doesn't anticipate that the signal from the Cam sensor should move in relation to the Crank (does a nonVVT NB start/run with the intake cam advanced two teeth?). If you could move the cam sensor to read a nub on the exhaust cam wheel (as on the MSM and 99-00, but they use the intake cam wheel) you might be in a better shape. But where and how to make sure you place it at the correct degrees in relation to the crank is another matter. How about this one....the cam rotates two times per crank revolution. Could a device be made to take the crank signal and output a signal twice for every input crank signal? This device would have to be timed to deliver output signals at full retard. In full retard (ocv disconnected), the oem ecu does not freak out. DIY, are you reading this? |
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk
(Post 755195)
But you can still get into the problem of the ECU freaking out since it doesn't anticipate that the signal from the Cam sensor should move in relation to the Crank (does a nonVVT NB start/run with the intake cam advanced two teeth?).
If you could move the cam sensor to read a nub on the exhaust cam wheel (as on the MSM and 99-00, but they use the intake cam wheel) you might be in a better shape. But where and how to make sure you place it at the correct degrees in relation to the crank is another matter. I came to think that it would be much smarter if the signals coming from the VVTuner was phased to look like cam advanced zero degrees, otherwise the simulated NA CAS signals would look strange too (e.g. at 40 degrees advance). Disregard as much of the above as you want :) |
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I don't think that would work either or if it did the engine would run rough. I did some reading on cam sensors. I assume the oem ecu needs the correct cam angle so it can match it with the correct injection angle?
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 755197)
Did you have and did you use A/C? My idle was "almost" rock solid too...until I applied loads. A/C, high beams, rear defroster. It was absolutely fine as long as I was using it in a fuel-only mode. As soon as I took control of the ignition, boooo.
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Those that running full standalones (brand doesn't matter as long as it controls vvt)...... are you able to change the injector angle? Just curious if the vvt range is enough that could cause fuel pooling in the IM by not changing the injector angle to match cam angle.
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ms3 = yes.
the injection timing changes with the cam angle. |
If you decide to sell it, PM me.
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I am probably going to try a MS before I sell it.
Originally Posted by SmokeSR
(Post 858370)
If you decide to sell it, PM me.
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