Why do I keep burning up WBO2 sensors?
09-13-2018, 07:42 AM
#42
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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Glad I could catch you Mech5700! I’m sorry to hear the problem never really went away. Good luck with it if you decide to troubleshoot it further. Reading about your experience, as well as reading more (much more!) about AFR tables and spark advance tables is helping connect the dots in my head, so I think I’m finally understanding what the issues with my car are.
Thanks to you and everyone in this thread!
Thanks to you and everyone in this thread!
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09-13-2018, 12:19 PM
#43
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Location: Port Saint Lucie,FL
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Dwalk, that's what this forum's really good for. So much data here it's amazing. I knew nothing about turbocharging, tuning, etc prior to doing it on my own car. Did it all "on my own" but learned it all by reading here and asking questions if I couldn't find the answers.
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09-13-2018, 01:49 PM
#45
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My experience with Innovate widebands is as follows:
- If they don't throw an E8 within the first year, they will probably not throw one for a total of 4 years. Probably.
- If they do throw an E8 within the first year, then changing the sensor will only give you a couple of months at best before it happens again.
- The problem is the firmware. We don't know yet if the issue is with the heater management, as we haven't tested "E8" sensors on other wideband controllers to see if they work or if they throw errors. But once you do see an E8 on an Innovate, there's very little chance that a reflash, free air recal or anything else will fix it permanently.
- I was running 4 LC-1s and one LM-1 on my car, pre-turbo. The LC-1s were about 2" from the head on the header, with HBX-1 heatsink bungs. I never had an E8 on these, for probably 4-5 years. The LM-1 did throw an E8 at about 5 years. Changing the sensor was ok at this point, and it lasted another 5 years before switching to turbo and my own wideband controller. The LC-1s were only getting power 4 seconds after the engine started, not while the ignition was on or while cranking.
- I have seen multiple LC-1/LC-2/MTX-L installations which were completely fine (sensor away from turbo, no backpressure, no excessive heat) yet they were throwing E8 like crazy, I had customers that were swapping sensors every 3-6 months.
Taking everything into account, I would not recommend an Innovate wideband, even though my personal experience on my car was pretty solid. Something in their firmware is definitely not ok, and they refuse to admit it/fix it.
- If they don't throw an E8 within the first year, they will probably not throw one for a total of 4 years. Probably.
- If they do throw an E8 within the first year, then changing the sensor will only give you a couple of months at best before it happens again.
- The problem is the firmware. We don't know yet if the issue is with the heater management, as we haven't tested "E8" sensors on other wideband controllers to see if they work or if they throw errors. But once you do see an E8 on an Innovate, there's very little chance that a reflash, free air recal or anything else will fix it permanently.
- I was running 4 LC-1s and one LM-1 on my car, pre-turbo. The LC-1s were about 2" from the head on the header, with HBX-1 heatsink bungs. I never had an E8 on these, for probably 4-5 years. The LM-1 did throw an E8 at about 5 years. Changing the sensor was ok at this point, and it lasted another 5 years before switching to turbo and my own wideband controller. The LC-1s were only getting power 4 seconds after the engine started, not while the ignition was on or while cranking.
- I have seen multiple LC-1/LC-2/MTX-L installations which were completely fine (sensor away from turbo, no backpressure, no excessive heat) yet they were throwing E8 like crazy, I had customers that were swapping sensors every 3-6 months.
Taking everything into account, I would not recommend an Innovate wideband, even though my personal experience on my car was pretty solid. Something in their firmware is definitely not ok, and they refuse to admit it/fix it.
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09-13-2018, 04:13 PM
#46
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Manassas,VA
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My experience with Innovate widebands is as follows:
- If they don't throw an E8 within the first year, they will probably not throw one for a total of 4 years. Probably.
- If they do throw an E8 within the first year, then changing the sensor will only give you a couple of months at best before it happens again.
- The problem is the firmware. We don't know yet if the issue is with the heater management, as we haven't tested "E8" sensors on other wideband controllers to see if they work or if they throw errors. But once you do see an E8 on an Innovate, there's very little chance that a reflash, free air recal or anything else will fix it permanently.
- I was running 4 LC-1s and one LM-1 on my car, pre-turbo. The LC-1s were about 2" from the head on the header, with HBX-1 heatsink bungs. I never had an E8 on these, for probably 4-5 years. The LM-1 did throw an E8 at about 5 years. Changing the sensor was ok at this point, and it lasted another 5 years before switching to turbo and my own wideband controller. The LC-1s were only getting power 4 seconds after the engine started, not while the ignition was on or while cranking.
- I have seen multiple LC-1/LC-2/MTX-L installations which were completely fine (sensor away from turbo, no backpressure, no excessive heat) yet they were throwing E8 like crazy, I had customers that were swapping sensors every 3-6 months.
Taking everything into account, I would not recommend an Innovate wideband, even though my personal experience on my car was pretty solid. Something in their firmware is definitely not ok, and they refuse to admit it/fix it.
- If they don't throw an E8 within the first year, they will probably not throw one for a total of 4 years. Probably.
- If they do throw an E8 within the first year, then changing the sensor will only give you a couple of months at best before it happens again.
- The problem is the firmware. We don't know yet if the issue is with the heater management, as we haven't tested "E8" sensors on other wideband controllers to see if they work or if they throw errors. But once you do see an E8 on an Innovate, there's very little chance that a reflash, free air recal or anything else will fix it permanently.
- I was running 4 LC-1s and one LM-1 on my car, pre-turbo. The LC-1s were about 2" from the head on the header, with HBX-1 heatsink bungs. I never had an E8 on these, for probably 4-5 years. The LM-1 did throw an E8 at about 5 years. Changing the sensor was ok at this point, and it lasted another 5 years before switching to turbo and my own wideband controller. The LC-1s were only getting power 4 seconds after the engine started, not while the ignition was on or while cranking.
- I have seen multiple LC-1/LC-2/MTX-L installations which were completely fine (sensor away from turbo, no backpressure, no excessive heat) yet they were throwing E8 like crazy, I had customers that were swapping sensors every 3-6 months.
Taking everything into account, I would not recommend an Innovate wideband, even though my personal experience on my car was pretty solid. Something in their firmware is definitely not ok, and they refuse to admit it/fix it.
Ive been through 3 bosch LSU 4.9 sensors on my MTX-L+, on my 4th in less than a year (car is barely driven). There is no response from innovate for a fix to the firmware, and nothing available online for it. The LSU 4.9's work just fine on other widebands, the only consistent failure point is the Innovate gauge. IMHO
Ive checked calibration, grounding, added a sheet metal heat sink, moved it down stream, its clocked correctly, ive stayed off of 2 step, prevented back fires, you name it. My last attempt is to run the special innovate heatsink which is actually more of an extended bung.
The gauge will eventually start sticking at certain AFR's, confirmed in tuner studio. then will stick at full lean, go wonky, then during hard acceleration will throw an E8. Ive also noticed that using an off the shelf Bosch O2 and not the one included, that when off throttle it flops between 20.9 and the 23.7, if i recall on the out of the box provided sensor it would only sit at 23.7 or whatever the default is, not sure if that completely correct off hand. Also when calibrating, none of the new sensors ive had hit the number it says it should in the manual in free air, its slightly off. These are sensors off amazon, bosch that plug and play into innovate wiring.
just my two cents.
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09-16-2018, 10:58 AM
#47
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+1000000 on this.
Ive been through 3 bosch LSU 4.9 sensors on my MTX-L+, on my 4th in less than a year (car is barely driven). There is no response from innovate for a fix to the firmware, and nothing available online for it. The LSU 4.9's work just fine on other widebands, the only consistent failure point is the Innovate gauge. IMHO
Ive checked calibration, grounding, added a sheet metal heat sink, moved it down stream, its clocked correctly, ive stayed off of 2 step, prevented back fires, you name it. My last attempt is to run the special innovate heatsink which is actually more of an extended bung.
The gauge will eventually start sticking at certain AFR's, confirmed in tuner studio. then will stick at full lean, go wonky, then during hard acceleration will throw an E8. Ive also noticed that using an off the shelf Bosch O2 and not the one included, that when off throttle it flops between 20.9 and the 23.7, if i recall on the out of the box provided sensor it would only sit at 23.7 or whatever the default is, not sure if that completely correct off hand. Also when calibrating, none of the new sensors ive had hit the number it says it should in the manual in free air, its slightly off. These are sensors off amazon, bosch that plug and play into innovate wiring.
just my two cents.
Ive been through 3 bosch LSU 4.9 sensors on my MTX-L+, on my 4th in less than a year (car is barely driven). There is no response from innovate for a fix to the firmware, and nothing available online for it. The LSU 4.9's work just fine on other widebands, the only consistent failure point is the Innovate gauge. IMHO
Ive checked calibration, grounding, added a sheet metal heat sink, moved it down stream, its clocked correctly, ive stayed off of 2 step, prevented back fires, you name it. My last attempt is to run the special innovate heatsink which is actually more of an extended bung.
The gauge will eventually start sticking at certain AFR's, confirmed in tuner studio. then will stick at full lean, go wonky, then during hard acceleration will throw an E8. Ive also noticed that using an off the shelf Bosch O2 and not the one included, that when off throttle it flops between 20.9 and the 23.7, if i recall on the out of the box provided sensor it would only sit at 23.7 or whatever the default is, not sure if that completely correct off hand. Also when calibrating, none of the new sensors ive had hit the number it says it should in the manual in free air, its slightly off. These are sensors off amazon, bosch that plug and play into innovate wiring.
just my two cents.
Exactly how my relationship with my LC-2 has been... except I'm not giving Innovate more money by buying their extended bung. Glad to see there is a consensus on Innovate and their issues/lack of admittance to their faulty design.
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12-31-2018, 09:31 AM
#48
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
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There's a lot of good conversation going on here. Thanks for all the info folks. To add to the weirdness, I wanted to provide an update. I've been working around the E8 issue as best I can with the same controller and sensor, and no reflashes. Whenever I throw an E8, if I turn off the car for a minute and restart the sensor will come back to life again. After an immediate restart though the MXTL controller is more prone to throwing another E8. After sitting overnight the car is less likely to throw an E8 when driving.
Since my last post I've turbocharged my 94 Miata. While tuning the car now, I'll take it around the block maybe a couple times a week and I haven't seen many E8s. I did recalibrate the sensor during the turbo install. I think fresh calibration may help avoid E8s, and that heat from longer runs has an effect on how touchy the controller feels.
I've seen the same behavior above where the controller starts sticking to random lean readings and then throws an E8 shortly thereafter.
At this point I'm going to try to get my tune good enough for street driving and look for a different sensor.
Since my last post I've turbocharged my 94 Miata. While tuning the car now, I'll take it around the block maybe a couple times a week and I haven't seen many E8s. I did recalibrate the sensor during the turbo install. I think fresh calibration may help avoid E8s, and that heat from longer runs has an effect on how touchy the controller feels.
I've seen the same behavior above where the controller starts sticking to random lean readings and then throws an E8 shortly thereafter.
At this point I'm going to try to get my tune good enough for street driving and look for a different sensor.
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12-31-2018, 12:37 PM
#49
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ATL
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Just another datapoint FWIW.
I started out using a LC1, and had nothing but trouble (same as the OP - "burning up" WBO2 sensors like they were going out of style). I switched to a PLX Devices controller, and things got a bit more stable, but there was no way (that I could find) to easily calibrate the sensor.
After a bit of soul-searching I sprung for an AFR500 from Ballenger Motorsports, and haven't looked back. It's been reliable, and I haven't "burned up" any more sensors since then.
PS - at no point in time did I ever use a heat-sink on the sensor. That may have accelerated the problems w/ the LC1, but the AFR500 hasn't hiccuped yet.
I started out using a LC1, and had nothing but trouble (same as the OP - "burning up" WBO2 sensors like they were going out of style). I switched to a PLX Devices controller, and things got a bit more stable, but there was no way (that I could find) to easily calibrate the sensor.
After a bit of soul-searching I sprung for an AFR500 from Ballenger Motorsports, and haven't looked back. It's been reliable, and I haven't "burned up" any more sensors since then.
PS - at no point in time did I ever use a heat-sink on the sensor. That may have accelerated the problems w/ the LC1, but the AFR500 hasn't hiccuped yet.
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12-31-2018, 04:53 PM
#50
Retired Mech Design Engr
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I have had no issues with my LC2 proper. The G5 gauge crapped out, but controller and sensor have been fine for 4 years.
Sounds like I have been one of the fortunate ones.
Sounds like I have been one of the fortunate ones.
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12-31-2018, 10:47 PM
#52
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Location: Port Saint Lucie,FL
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Who knows. I know everything isn't perfect with my setup... I know it runs a little rich, I know I burn some oil, I have a BEGi 2 piece downpipe so I'm sure there is some exhaust leaks... all of which I'm certain will accelerate the death of a sensor. But sometimes I don't even get but a few days out of it... literally a few hours of driving. I have since unplugged the gauge so I don't have to see the flashing "7.4". My tune has never really let me down and I trust it plenty to run without EGO correction, especially for the 1 day every other week I actually drive the car nowadays. I'll circle back around to giving the car some love eventually, but my family is about to grow here in a few weeks so the Miata is kinda low on the never ending list of things to do right now!
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01-03-2019, 12:38 AM
#53
Gotta leave my comment . Was going through sensors about 1/year with an MTX-L. Perfect location and even made a nice aluminum heatsink. Annoying as hell. Especially when you get E8 first track session of the day. Finally said F it as all my other friends were using AEM and never had problems.
Went AEM and haven't had as much as a hiccup in over a year.
Went AEM and haven't had as much as a hiccup in over a year.
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01-03-2019, 01:41 AM
#54
I had the MTX-L plus in the stock pipe N/A and started experiencing exactly what the OP was going through after 2 months of use(started a thread about it) . tried FW update, heat sink, etc. Switched to AEM same conditions and haven't had a issue with it since.
side note: I also like the fact that the AEM has a separate signal ground.
side note: I also like the fact that the AEM has a separate signal ground.
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