Why do I keep burning up WBO2 sensors?
 

I have an LC2, was fine NA for 3 months, installed turbo, 3 months later got an error 8. Called Innovate and they said replace the sensor, which I did. 2 months or so go by, fails again. Was at the drag strip and it failed after a 2 step launch, maybe thats what killed it. So I replced it again. Now this is about 1 month or so later and I'm getting another error 8. No 2 step or anything, just normal (spirited) driving. I'll be cruising along and the AFR will show normal, sometimes stick high or low, then start flashing 7.4. I called Begi and Stephanie said the position of the bung is ok, but I think it is too low... the alternative would be one of the bungs further up the DP, but then the sensor would only be a foot of so away from the turbo. Would I be better off putting the sensor up there?

Attachment 233244

Attachment 233245

Thanks,

Andy

Where is the O2 sensor currently located (distance from turbo and clock position)? You never mentioned that.

EDIT: Never mind. I see the pictures now.

To quote the LC-2 manual: "Using a clock as reference, mount the bung between the 9:00 o’clock and 3:00 o’clock position. Welding the bung in the lower section of the exhaust pipe can result in sensor damage caused by condensation making contact with the sensor’s internal heating element."

It looks like your sensor is lower than 3:00 o'clock.

Yeah I agree that it's too low. I think I'm gonna use the second bung up by the turbo for now, then next time I have the DP out I'll weld a bung in a better spot.

Heat sink it. Copper pipe smashed and drilled works great.

Mount it between 9 and 3 O' Clock and put a heat sink on it. Done.

Quoting the LC-2 manual again: "Weld the bung at least 24 inches downstream of the exhaust port outlet (after the collector), or 24 inches after the turbocharger if so equipped. The bung should be welded before the X or H pipe if so equipped."

I've never messed with heat sinks, but Innovate spells it out pretty simply. Closer than 24 inches to the turbo could damage the sensor.

I will weld a new bung on next time I take the DP out in a good spot according to their instructions. But for now I'm gonna try and get Autozone to warranty this sensor like the did last time and try it out in the other bung. I tacked the 2 piece slip joint together so it's a biotch to get the DP out or else I would do it the right way this week.

Probably either the low in the pipe condensation problem or a bad ground. I had a car that had the sensor last for nearly a year and then something happened and I couldnt get sensors to last for more than 2 months. That LC1 is in the WRX now and its been in for like 2.5 years, and that LC1 spent a trip on the highway sitting on the downpipe so its nice and melted. So it has to be something like a bad ground that was making the sensors show bad on the previous car.

Innovate allows closer mounting with heat sink. They have instructions as to preferred shape.

Your wideband sensors angle is in the total opposite position it should be, condensation needs to be able to run off it not in to the sensor itself, correct distance from the turbo also.

Amazingly, autozone warrantied the sensor for the 2nd time, so I relocated it and fabbed up a crude heat shield out of a piece of an old street sign. Hopefully this takes care of the E8 for now, as this location is a pain to get the sensor in/out...

Attachment 233243

If it dies again, I'm going to ditch the LC2 for something better...

It's unreasonable to blame the LC-2 for your problems. You've installed your sensor against the manufacturer's recommendations causing it to be damaged. Additionally, if you had any other wideband controller, the sensor would be damaged in the exact same way. Changing your controller doesn't mean your sensor is suddenly more resistant to your ignorance.

You're right. I guess the final effort will be welding in a new bung as far down the pipe as possible, and on the upper half of the pipe. But that ain't happening for a little while, probably not until I pull everything out to swap in my project built motor in a few months.

It will absolutely be fine where it is with its heatsink.

Also the sensor isnt an innovate sensor, it is a Bosch LSU4.2, which is what basically every single oem on the plant has used for 10 years on every model.

Its your fault not its fault.

Dann

Innovate's heater control is garbage. I've run actual Bosch wideband systems (ETAS brand) and they don't overheat like that with the 4.2 or 4.9 .

How is innovate's heater control garbage? It says here on Innovate's website that the LC-2 uses "Bosch™ Heater Control". I would assume Bosch's own brand uses the same "Bosch™ Heater Control".

Also, I don't think heater control is the issue here. If you install a sensor too low in the pipe, it can be damaged by condensation contacting the heating element. I'm not positive, but I doubt better heater control can help this. And I can only imagine that the Innovate unit with "Bosch™ Heater Control" is designed to take into consideration things like condensation in the exhaust.

Finally, if you install a sensor too close to the exhaust source, it can be damaged by overheating. I'm not sure a controller can help this issue because the heating element is only used to preheat the sensor. The heating element and controlling circuit (such as the "Bosch™ Heater Control" in the Innovate brand unit) can't do much to cool the sensor off if the exhaust gasses are overheating it.

I have done what the OP did, and it burns up the sensor from overheating it. I kept it in the same spot, put a copper heatsink on it and it never failed again.

Just saw this on a 2011 lexus is250 at work:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1434141787

Tried looking up a part# for the cover only, but it looks like it comes as part of the sensor. Looks like it'd work great tho!

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1438893151


Jumbo Aluminum SILVER Cup Holder [CHALSLV] - $2.79 : Split Pot, LLC, Custom Poker Tables and Gaming Supplies!

Get this and drill an appropriate sized hole in it?

It died again
 

Lasted just about 3 months with the heat sync. Replaced it again without the heat sync, will see how it goes this time.

Luckily Autozone has lifetime warranty on these bosch 17014's so I just swap it out for n/c...

I remember specifically emailing for them to make sure it was welded between 9 and 3 oclock... =[

I'm really glad I did.

Where are the mentioned instructions for making a heat sink? the previous owner of my friend's car installed the O2 sensor 6" from the turbo outlet...

Something has to be wrong...

Mine is 6" from turbo outlet, been using the same sensor for 5 years with no issue. Sensor in the 12 oclock position, using an LC-1, not an MTX-L.

<br />
<br /><br />
<br />I call bullshit, you don't have a turbo car ;)

I had a turbo car long before i had my first Miata, and i still have it. :giggle:

Fuel additives, poor grounding, oil additives, cleaners and solvents, some rtv silicones, overly high temp, overly low temp, overly rich, and a few other things can contribute to early failure, iirc.

Never used additives in the fuel or oil.
Grounded MS and WB to the battery.
Haven't rtv'd anything.
Afr is 11.5 -11.8 or so in boost.
I don't have an egt setup to tell temps...

making:

cut out a rectangle of alumn. or copper.

drill a hole in the middle.



installation:

unscrew o2.

stick through hole of heatsink.

screw back in o2.

bend edges of heatsink up 45° to catch airflow.

I was expecting there to be more to it then that! Thanks!

I will add it to the ever growing list of things to do to keep this car running...

See my post #12

The sensor I put in without a heat sync 9/1 lasted till this week. I had the rest of the exhaust finished and we put a bung at 12 oclock, allllll the way back pretty much by the diff. It's a 1" bung too so the sensor is barely in the exhaust stream now. If this doesn't last, I'm out of ideas.

Its the wiring of your controller.

I had the same problem. When I first got mine it acted up with e8 error. Mine is naturally aspirated. Few weeks later it now works good. (Litttle rich or little lean) I had to reset it and pull it out a couple of times. Best thing is to do is go further down the exhaust pipe with a heat sinksince you have forced induction. Require some welding

Guys, try reflashing the firmware.

Got another E8 today. Called innovate and the guy said something has to be damaging the sensors and there's no way it can be a problem with the controller because replacing the sensor fixes the problem for a little bit.

I do have one piece of info I wasn't aware of: I have the controller powered by a wire coming from the ignition switch (white/red), hot when key on obviously, but Innovate said that's not good enough and should be on its own power circuit. However, he suggested this would not cause an E8, but it should be changed.

I connected to the controller today and updated the firmware, and did a calibration so we'll see what happens...

@Mech5700, did you ever work out what the cause of the E8 error codes was? I've been tuning my MS on my naturally aspirated 1994 1.8 with the wideband sensor installed in the stock O2 sensor location and just ran into an E8 while cruising around the neighborhood, not running overly rich or lean leading up to the E8. I had less than 10 hours running the sensor on the car, so it seems strange that I could have run into an E8 so quickly. I hear mixed reviews of the Innovate MXT-L that I'm using, so I'm just trying to figure out what the source of the issue may be.

Thanks! Sorry for dragging up an old thread!

that's complete BS. the controller CAN, and if designed by monkeys and built with cheap components WILL contribute to premature sensors death.

I'd go AEM.

Dwalk51, Nope, never got to the bottom of it. The E8's come back, sometimes weeks after a new sensor is installed, sometimes months. I think this last one was maybe a week before it set the E8 again. I got so fed up with it that I disconnected my gauge so it doesn't sit there and flash at me 7.4... (my tune is decent enough so I don't really NEED EGO correction at this point)

ldslds88, I think I am going to get a 14point7 and a gauge from Speedhut. I don't have anything against AEM, they just don't have a gauge that will look right with my setup.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c5b20784f6.jpg

Speedhut gauges can be customized and I hear really good things about 14point7...just gotta stop bein lazy and buy stuff lol.

wow a thread necro that got a response from the OP... internet's not what it used to be :giggle:

reading through the post though I don't think its the sensor location (not since you moved it). I have been researching O2 placement and the short sensor life you have (and still are I guess) getting is very abnormal. A lot of Suby guys run theirs a hell of a lot closer (a lot of their aftermarket DPs have them installed really close apparently) with no issues. I'm not sure what could be causing it (sounds like you tried everything) but I think your placement is fine now...

When you get a controller that throws E8 all the time just reflash it. Fixes everything.

At one point I did a firmware "downgrade" and it actually seemed to help for a while. Then eventually started crapping out again... haven't tried a reflash to the current version yet tho.

Dwalk, that's what this forum's really good for. So much data here it's amazing. I knew nothing about turbocharging, tuning, etc prior to doing it on my own car. Did it all "on my own" but learned it all by reading here and asking questions if I couldn't find the answers.

I don't think a downgrade helps. Just reflashing seems to. Supposedly they left a small circuit off the board that would prevent firmware corruption from power fluctuations, saw it on some volvo forum.

My experience with Innovate widebands is as follows:

- If they don't throw an E8 within the first year, they will probably not throw one for a total of 4 years. Probably.
- If they do throw an E8 within the first year, then changing the sensor will only give you a couple of months at best before it happens again.
- The problem is the firmware. We don't know yet if the issue is with the heater management, as we haven't tested "E8" sensors on other wideband controllers to see if they work or if they throw errors. But once you do see an E8 on an Innovate, there's very little chance that a reflash, free air recal or anything else will fix it permanently.
- I was running 4 LC-1s and one LM-1 on my car, pre-turbo. The LC-1s were about 2" from the head on the header, with HBX-1 heatsink bungs. I never had an E8 on these, for probably 4-5 years. The LM-1 did throw an E8 at about 5 years. Changing the sensor was ok at this point, and it lasted another 5 years before switching to turbo and my own wideband controller. The LC-1s were only getting power 4 seconds after the engine started, not while the ignition was on or while cranking.
- I have seen multiple LC-1/LC-2/MTX-L installations which were completely fine (sensor away from turbo, no backpressure, no excessive heat) yet they were throwing E8 like crazy, I had customers that were swapping sensors every 3-6 months.

Taking everything into account, I would not recommend an Innovate wideband, even though my personal experience on my car was pretty solid. Something in their firmware is definitely not ok, and they refuse to admit it/fix it.

+1000000 on this.

Ive been through 3 bosch LSU 4.9 sensors on my MTX-L+, on my 4th in less than a year (car is barely driven). There is no response from innovate for a fix to the firmware, and nothing available online for it. The LSU 4.9's work just fine on other widebands, the only consistent failure point is the Innovate gauge. IMHO

Ive checked calibration, grounding, added a sheet metal heat sink, moved it down stream, its clocked correctly, ive stayed off of 2 step, prevented back fires, you name it. My last attempt is to run the special innovate heatsink which is actually more of an extended bung.

The gauge will eventually start sticking at certain AFR's, confirmed in tuner studio. then will stick at full lean, go wonky, then during hard acceleration will throw an E8. Ive also noticed that using an off the shelf Bosch O2 and not the one included, that when off throttle it flops between 20.9 and the 23.7, if i recall on the out of the box provided sensor it would only sit at 23.7 or whatever the default is, not sure if that completely correct off hand. Also when calibrating, none of the new sensors ive had hit the number it says it should in the manual in free air, its slightly off. These are sensors off amazon, bosch that plug and play into innovate wiring.

just my two cents.

Exactly how my relationship with my LC-2 has been... except I'm not giving Innovate more money by buying their extended bung. Glad to see there is a consensus on Innovate and their issues/lack of admittance to their faulty design.

Just another datapoint FWIW.

I started out using a LC1, and had nothing but trouble (same as the OP - "burning up" WBO2 sensors like they were going out of style). I switched to a PLX Devices controller, and things got a bit more stable, but there was no way (that I could find) to easily calibrate the sensor.

After a bit of soul-searching I sprung for an AFR500 from Ballenger Motorsports, and haven't looked back. It's been reliable, and I haven't "burned up" any more sensors since then.

PS - at no point in time did I ever use a heat-sink on the sensor. That may have accelerated the problems w/ the LC1, but the AFR500 hasn't hiccuped yet.

My lc1 is been trouble-free. Maybe it's because I bought it used.

Who knows. I know everything isn't perfect with my setup... I know it runs a little rich, I know I burn some oil, I have a BEGi 2 piece downpipe so I'm sure there is some exhaust leaks... all of which I'm certain will accelerate the death of a sensor. But sometimes I don't even get but a few days out of it... literally a few hours of driving. I have since unplugged the gauge so I don't have to see the flashing "7.4". My tune has never really let me down and I trust it plenty to run without EGO correction, especially for the 1 day every other week I actually drive the car nowadays. I'll circle back around to giving the car some love eventually, but my family is about to grow here in a few weeks so the Miata is kinda low on the never ending list of things to do right now!

Gotta leave my comment . Was going through sensors about 1/year with an MTX-L. Perfect location and even made a nice aluminum heatsink. Annoying as hell. Especially when you get E8 first track session of the day. Finally said F it as all my other friends were using AEM and never had problems.

Went AEM and haven't had as much as a hiccup in over a year.

I had the MTX-L plus in the stock pipe N/A and started experiencing exactly what the OP was going through after 2 months of use(started a thread about it) . tried FW update, heat sink, etc. Switched to AEM same conditions and haven't had a issue with it since.

side note: I also like the fact that the AEM has a separate signal ground.