Bosch integrated pressure/temp sensors
 

Hi there.

So, have you, like me been browsing the interwebs and seen those cool bosch integrated pressure and temp sensors?

You, know, these ones?
https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/con...144299147.html
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8db587af9e.jpg
m10x1.0mm thread, 5 pin trapezoid connector, and 150psi/10bar.

Like me, have you baulked at the 150 buck price tag that vendors such as Ballenger and Ace Performance systems ask, let alone the 2 hundred and fuckin 40 bucks racespeconline.com is selling for?
https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pr...oducts_id/4692
https://www.aceperformancesystems.co...sensor-liquid/
https://racespeconline.com/products/...=5569297612838


Well, someone got their spergers on and did some research so you don't have to, for the sake of the community

I have moved to a haltech from my MS, and saw that they are available from haltech, for 150USD including an M10 to NPT adapter and the connctor which is better, but let's just say that haltech are not the kings of bargain basement, so if you can get it for 150 bucks from them, it can be had cheaper.

So, looking at the picture on their site https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-0...rature-sensor/
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...24ca4bd521.jpg
Enhance.

Enhance.

Enhance.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b8d0a596a0.jpg

0261230340

Booyah!

This leads me here
https://www.bosch-motorsport-shop.co...-10-bar-140-de In Straya, that part number is the part number sold by Bosch motorsport, not the PST-F1 as sold in the US.

So with that valuable info, we have more. Search that part number and amongst other things, we have an eBay listing
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192948285779
From which we have a fitment table
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...eafff8d139.png
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0a0f329ca0.png
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...03f999ee84.png

And whaddaya know, of all things a MAZDA part number.

Plugging that number into the search box at the good peoples at priority mazda takes you here
https://www.prioritymazdaparts.com/o...nit-py8v18541b edit: 12072021 priority is dead, my new fave is mazda partsfactor/werner mazda in NH https://www.mazdapartsfactor.com/oem...sor-py8v18541b $61 bucks

tadaa, 60.37 at priority, was something like 58 at Tasca, and that was as far as I looked. 40% of the suspects listed at the top, and a criminal 25% of the place in NY.

The plug can be had for like 12 bucks at ballenger
https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pr...oducts_id/4684
Or 6.95 at corsa technic, who are my new go to.
https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1506
thanks to EO2K for pointing these guys out. They have a smaller range than ballenger, and don't have the data for fitment ballenger does, but are SUBSTANTIALLY cheaper.

So, in case there was any difference between the motorsport and the oem supplied sensor I did a little more digging.
https://www.efisolutions.com.au/bosc...-sensor-pst-f1
https://www.efihardware.com/download/178/H-PS150G-AT-B

Calibration data and pinout is identical, and the 2nd link shares the PN with the mazda and haltech item.
THose guys also sell jsut adapter for the npt to m10 fitting. Or you can find them on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pipe-Fittin...P/202378002629 or I am sure mcmaster probably has them. Also htat place in oz delivers to the US, and with shipping if you were to buy just the sensor, connector with pins, an the adapter you would be looking at aboot 130USD to have the full shebang shipped to the USandA
Updated 101821
https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-0...-bspt-adaptor/ these were 12 bucks when i bought, them, now 17.
Bought from werner mazda these washers 9956-21-000 2006-2020 Mazda Brake Hose Gasket $1.98
to address issues in later posts of sealing non tapered thread

beyond that, I found that there is an aftermarket replacement
https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/st...+/+switch,4588
although out of stock at the rock so can;t get a price
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8875668 info page here. They were listed at o'reilly for 63 bucks and 54 at carid, but out of stock at carid, in case one needed an emergency FLAPS purchase to replace.

Finally, more digging found a couple of pretty recent threads on the LINK ecu forum
Bosch temp/pressure sensor calibration - G4+ - Link Engine Management
Oil Pressure Sensor issue - G4+ - Link Engine Management

the comment below is with regard to ebay spec knockoff sensors; relevant context regarding the bosch at the bottom of the quote - from head engineer at LINK


So there ya go, that is what my afternoon was spent researching while on the clock, hopefully this is useful for someone who wants to minimise the number of sensors in their bay, and it turns out they are actually pretty affordable and durable. I have plans to put at least one in my shitbox for oil pressure and temp on the tee for turbo feed. I need to run a fuel pressure sensor and it appears that these are fuel safe as per bosch so even if I don;t wire the temp in, it could be a good alternative to a PX2, and the same for CLT and coolant pressure.

High 5 all!

I found out today that certain C70 volvos have dynamic headlight leveling, via two analog position sensors mounted to the control arms. They are analog output, but very clean no contact rotary encoders of some sort inside instead of resistive wipers. They automatically zero, have around 90 degrees of range, and they seem pretty quick. Volvo headlight level sensor in google will find them, pretty cheap.

Also, be careful with the cheap male to female converters. They can be paper thin around the middle.

Interesting! Might be a good substitute for the rotary switches haltech sells. And thanks for the heads up on the m-f converters. Unfortunately, looking a little more, the cup does not runneth over with options for the female 10mm to male npt. Many options going the other way, typically for installing aftermarket gauges but putting european sensors in 'merica spec holes is not the usual direction of travel.

A couple more options here, for posterity

https://www.fittings.space/gtm2p-02zm-m10x10f stainless
https://www.fittings.space/gbm2p-02zm-m10x10f brass (ew)
https://www.efihardware.com/products...ale-to-1-8-npt from straya, 10.60USD at current exchange rate.

I have been looking on those for quite a while. The only issue I see on an oil sensing application is that I cannot figure out a location where I can reliably measure pressure while having enough flow to reliably measure oil temp as well.

yep. Stagnation. The solution I thought of was on the tee for the turbo, but that doesn't help if NA. You can find various port setups but you need to tap off the block and return it for it to work. Efihardware.com has a few options, but there is no "attach to block here" option that I can see.

Cats, many cats for all this work.

How do the M10 fittings seal? I'm assuming maybe a copper washer onto that flat surface of the sensor?

I wonder if there are any oil filter sandwich plates that can be machined to fit, or come with M10 female threads already.

I believe a 1/8 NPT is too wide at it's largest to drill and retap to M10 unfortunately. It might work, but the threads would probably run out out towards the top of the hole.

And yes, straight threads seal with a crush washer. A lot like the stock coolant sensor. Looking for an adapter with as large a face as possible would also be a good idea.

Also looks like there's some taper seat M10 adapters mixed up in those links, the auzzie one. Those won't have a spot face, and so won't seal on the combo pressure/temp sensors very well. I think those are predominately direct injection pressure sensors, 1KPSI+

https://www.autozone.com/engine-mana...063/560402_0_0 This is an M10 pressure only sensor in the same family.

There is a diagonal edge on the end of the combined sensor, but the temp sensor protrudes from the tip. I am wondering if that is intended as a sealing taper? You would also be relying on the sensor screwing all the way in to get a washer under the flange. I need to get one ordered and have a look at it - based on watching their videos, I think haltech buys a lot of stuff from EFI Hardware, so if I were a betting man I'd throw a fiver on the haltech one being the same as the one supplied by EFI Hardware.

I do not think so, only because the pressure/temp sensors have a boss for a crush washer while the pressure only sensors do not.

Very good point.

Why not drill, tap, and spotface a new M10 port in a sandwich plate, instead of trying to rework a NPT one?

does anybody know bosch part numbers for wideband sensors?
i mean cheap ones that go into oem cars

They are the same as any other 4.2/4.9/4.9ADV sensor. They usually just have proprietary plugs on end and are a real motherfucker to adapt. The 2013 volvo C70 has a bosch 4.2. Pretty sure it would be cheaper to try and fit an aftermarket 4.2 sensor to it than buying the volvo branded part. A 4.9 does not have a calibration resistor and would be a million times easier to adapt, you cannot cut the plug end off a 4.2 sensor...

And as I said earlier a NPT port is tapered. The major diameter at what would be the spot face is too large of a diameter. To make it work with full thread engagement you would have to sink the M10 and spot face past the original. If there is enough vertical room, it could work.

On my FPR going any deeper is a no go, plus the damn thing is round at the spot face so it would never seal. An adapter would be the only way.

This is false, the 4.9 does have a calibration resistor in the plug.

Ah, you are right. The 4.9-ADV does not have a trim resistor and so you could cut the end off.

Pretty sure not many controllers will use a 4.9-ADV though.

Since this post is so good, how about adding info about Bosch MAP sensors with integrated temperature sensing?

https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/con...110000651.html

They have three sensors


PST 1 (0.1 to 1.15 bar) - Bosch P/N 0261230333 - Used by several Ford products, including certain F150s. Available right now on RockAuto for $25.
PST 3 (0.2 to 3 bar) - Bosch P/N 0261230280 - Used by some Fords. Out of stock on RockAuto, available at NAPA for $30. Ford PN EL8A-9F479-CA
PST 4 (0.4 to 4 bar) - Bosch P/N 0261230423 - Used by Volvo. Available on eBay starting at $16 ($35 from more reputable sources). Volvo PN 31405341

I'm thinking of using the 1 bar sensor in my K24 swap. Seems like killing two birds with one sensor. Any reason these wouldn't be better than individual sensors?

Cool. I'll see if I can find what the connectors are and an affordable source this weekend.

Oops, oversight.

I believe the connector is the "CONN-100245" available from Ballenger.

If you want a source for cheap Bosch sensors (and plugs), look at VAG cars

Awesome thread! I have been scouring the web for some details about implementation of these sensors, and a random hit landed me in here. I have 2 of the Bosch PST-F1 sensors on order, and am going to need to machine some adapters. The big thing I am concerned about is the sealing method. Per the datasheet, these things have a flared end which is supposed to bottom-out in the taper at the bottom of the hole (shown in the official data sheet, in a lousy drawing which is missing proper detail lol).

Anyway, my thought was also to just get a copper crush washer in there and seal this thing the same way that the oil pressure switch in my engine is sealed. However, silicon pressure sensor elements are super sensitive to stresses in the surrounding structure, and I am not sure if putting all of that loading on the bottom boss face is going to mess up the calibration and/or lead to premature sensor failure. Has anyone here installed one of these with a crush washer and had positive results? I've reached out to Ballenger Motorsports and EFI Solutions (resellers of the sensor) with the same question, but I expect to get a CYA response saying that they can't guarantee anything. I bought mine from EFI Solutions, which sells them for AU$99, beating any price anywhere in the US. Even after the $30 shipping they are a solid deal, especially if you are buying a number of sensors & parts.

If it comes down to it, I can machine a flared-bottom adapter per the "official" documentation, but that is going to be a much bigger pain than just drilling the existing M12 hole out to M14 and stuffing in an M10 thread insert. As for implementing the sensor in the fuel system, that is all custom machining anyway, so anything goes there.

I use one of these with my Haltech 1500. Works well...although I had to find a spot where I could get both temp AND pressure. So I installed it in a oil filter sandwich plate. Works OK, just have to keep in mind the location when monitoring.

Awesome. On my last purchase from Haltech I grabbed a few of the m10-->NPT fittings. Next order from priority mazda, I will grab a sensor. I will install on a turbo oil feed tee. I have one that has 2 ports, so use one for sensor and one for turbo oil and jsut cap that off until I am ready to turbo stuff.

I have been playing with this sensor for the last week or so, unfortunately the temp pin does not output a linear 0-5v curve. I am currently working on trying to find a tiny arduino board to convert the log curve to linear so i can have my MS read it and output the values properly.

The calibration curve is this
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...85dfe9a8ef.jpg
Is there a way to make a curve in tunerstudio? for haltech you can select a calibration with those curves and it will work.

Tiny arduino is not going to have good ADC/DAC performance. Does MS not let you add points to your calibration curve to approximate the sensor calibration?

E.g. like this?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1df23799ca.png

Unfortunately, Generic Sensor Inputs on MS can only be 0-5v linear or match existing curves used for MAT/CLT/IAT sensors already configured and used elsewhere.
ie: I have a GM iat sensor with a known curve, I can choose for the bosch sensor to match the same configuration as the GM IAT curve, if it lined up.

Well that's no fun.

In which case I'd grab one of these sweet new teensy 4s (https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy41.html , seriously these are such insane value), a 5v to 3v logic level shifter, and just hook the teensy up to the MS3 with CAN. That way you can have whatever calibration or filtering you want + error handling and room to add more sensors down the line on the teensy (or SPI devices like thermocouple amp, GPS, etc. -- https://github.com/mantonakakis1/MegaCAN) and just broadcast it to the MS3. With whats out there in the community it should be pretty spoon feedy, but for sure some amount of coding involved. Talk about something you can't do with a Haltech (sadly.....)

I am using the CAN network for another peripheral right now, so I'd like to handle it in ADC/DAC, take the input of the sensor, create a lookup table in the microcontroller and spit out a linear mapped 0-5v value to the input pin of the MS3. The problem I am finding is that 5v i/o does not seem to exist on arduino based boards as most run the cpu on 3.3v. Not worried about the programming aspect, as thats my day job, just trying to find the right hardware.

Gotcha gotcha.

Looks like MS uses a 10-bit ADC but given this is diy hardware in an environment with a good deal of noise you might be better off going with a 12 or 14 bit ADC/DAC combo and oversampling + filtering the input.

You could always grab 2 demo boards from the ADC/DAC mfg (i.e. analog devices, stmicro, ti, etc) but those are usually pretty expensive and likely overkill. Best easy-mode would be to get some 12-bit adc/dacs from adafriut/sparkfun and run them off the 5v rail from the ECU. They should be 3.3v and 5v tolerant, but not sure if you can use 3.3v logic if you're powering it off a 5v to get the ADC/DAC range you need. Either way a logic level shifter is cheap and easy.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1083
https://www.adafruit.com/product/935
https://www.adafruit.com/product/757

Should be easy code attached in the docs depending on if you want to use an mcu that supports circuit python (the new hotness these days it would seem) or just arduino IDE c code. Regardless that adc will run at ~3 kHz, probably best to run it quick and just take a large moving average before your lookup table or calibration curve.

If you wanted to go totally overkill with ton of expandability, these lil fpga boards are cheap for what you get, super robost/reliable compared to normal MCUs, and the system gives lots of option for future expansion, but also learning curve.

https://store.digilentinc.com/arty-a...lopment-board/
https://store.digilentinc.com/pmod-gps-gps-receiver/
https://store.digilentinc.com/pmod-a...a-d-converter/
https://store.digilentinc.com/pmod-s...tronic-switch/

Thanks for this well thought out reply. I was looking into the logic level shifters, but am concerned as most have a minimum voltage of ~1.5 on the low side and slightly more on the high side, this will drastically reduce the resolution capable of the sensor. I was hoping to find a cheap diy type mcu that is very small and operates at 5v logic level, and is capable of 10bit. The problem will be finding something that has that and a adc/dac onboard. sample rate is not overly a concern for this application i dont think, as even at 1khz i would be getting readings at 1/sec which should be adequate for temp/pressure for logging and visual display on a gauge.

Edit:
this breadkout board you linked may be the ticket! https://www.adafruit.com/product/935

Yeah those adafruit boards will work with any arduino or teensy type MCU and, while slightly more expensive than some, they generally have good support/docs. All the analog input/output is handled by those 12-bit ICs, the MCU is only communicating digitally so no worries there.

The logic level shifter is needed as to get the 0-5V range you want you need to power the ADC/DAC ICs with 5V as well (which is fine even if your MCU doesn't have it because MS3 has a 5V rail). But, while they are both 1.8-5V logic tolerant ICs, I think they expect logic to be at the same level as VDD (5V), so the level shifter is just to translate the digital communication between the ICs (5V) and the MCU (3.3V/1.8V) over the I2C bus.

Good luck!

Adafruit makes a M4 Feather that has a SAME51 with built in canbus plus transceiver as well as a DAC. Use a unity gain opamp as a buffer followed by a resistor divider to reduce 5v to 3.3v linearly, look at what rusefi is doing. You cannot use just a resistor divider as that's all a temp sensor is in the first place. Put all this on a stupid simple PCB that has input power filtering/clamping/polarity protection, maybe canbus filter if you care. Also, add the pullups, lowpass filters, etc...

Or forget the DAC and just pipe the data straight into the megasquirt over canbus. If you want to do the same on haltech, PM me and I'll tell you were to stick data, in what format.

Adafruit's code for canbus is kinda crap, but if you search github for my name you should find a ATSAME arduino canbus library that works.

Ms3 has three non-linear comp curves, maybe one more if you can use analog MAF. Most installs would have no issue using the stock CLT/IAT and as many of these sensors as you can manage.

I think he's using the can bus in a different format for a separate peripheral, but in for that sweet haltech can protocol, you have pm. Also that feather is sweet, might just pick one up to run my dash switches now...

The canbus controller on the SAME51 is incredible. I think there are enough buffers to be able to store each and every MS incoming broadcast message to a dedicated receive buffer. It uses SRAM directly, the very moment a message hits a buffer it's sitting waiting in SRAM for the CPU.

I don't know how teensy does it, but I can't bootload it so I don't give a hoot.

That feather has two of those canbus peripherals, only one transceiver and the available IO might be used somewhere else anyway, probably usb. Could easily port whatever format you are running to the megasquirt format, then forgo the ADC-DAC-ADC loop. Probably have to make a fully custom board then, but you can since it's not a teensy.

Much as I hate to tell someone not to put ten more computers in their car, if you're using a recent firmware release on MS3, there is also an additional "Custom#1" thermistor calibration you can use for whatever you like. You can even specify transformations that don't neatly fit the three-parameter NTC curve generator.


Set it...
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f03fbc6cc9.png



...and forget it.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c6517011f8.png

This looks like it will mostly fit the bill, interpolation between the rows will cause some degradation of resolution. I am still on 1.4.1 as thats what my MS3 Basic shipped with, and havnt bothered with the later firmwares yet. Something to look into, thank you for pointing this out.

Update
9956-21-000 2006-2020 Mazda Brake Hose Gasket $1.98 ordered these washers
https://www.haltech.com/product/ht-0...-bspt-adaptor/ these adapters
PY8V-18-541B 2016-2020 Mazda Oil Pressure Sensor $57.49 this sensor

mazda parts from mazdapartsfactor/werner mazda in NH. Cheaper than priority, no messed up orders so far.

ordering trapezoid connector and wiring from Corsa Technic later this week
https://www.corsa-technic.com/item.php?item_id=1506

Have a bunch of stuff to do to my car as soon as the snow starts flying, after the valve seals, the knock sensor and running this off the turbo oil feed and connecting to the Haltech will be the next things on the list.

Update again.

Using the haltech adapter, the washers I bought were superfluous. the sensor bottoms in the adapter and the washer is loose. So the washer is not needed. Put a thin smear of permatex sealant on the top of the threads, will see if it leaks when i get round to oiling it up and starting this thing

This is an old-ass thread, but are you supposed to run shielded wires for these sensors or something?

I have what I think is the same or a derivative of the same sensor in my K24 BRZ and the oil temperature immediately spikes 30-40f when wide open throttle. I am guessing there is some kind of interference at this point, sensor is in the stock pressure sensor location.

Yuba, I can't speak to your problem, perhaps by now you've figured it out and want to share what the root of issue was?

msmola2002, I'm wondering how the sensor has been doing with your sealing method. I'm eyeing a $45 cheapo version of this sensor on Aliexpress. I'm hoping that if the sensor leaks, it would tell me so with a low pressure warning :x:

I have seen the similar Lowdoller-branded sensor posted recently with a 1/8" NPT thread, if adapting m10 doesn't work well maybe I'll have to go that route.

Yeah, so my issue was that KPower grounded the sensor to regular ground instead of sensor ground in their early K24 BRZ harnesses.

The next K24 I put together is getting a Syltech sensor for a few reasons:
1. Don't need to deal with the trapez plug
2. The Bosch seems to end up leaking eventually, sometimes explosively
3. 1/8" NPT instead of this weird M10 that requires an adapter, the adapter moves the temp portion out of the fluid stream making it somewhat less accurate

https://www.ptmotorsport.com.au/prod...d-temp-sensor/

That's good to know. I suppose having a perfect fit and function the first time is worth at least $50.

Yeah, kind of annoying how expensive the Syltechs are but it is what it is.

Also, for what it is worth, I am running the Lowdoller pressure/temp sensors for my fuel temp / fuel pressure and coolant temp / coolant pressure. They work fine but I had to make my own resistance table for Haltech, I wish they had a lower temp range for better resolution.

Lowdoller 899404 Pressure & Temperature Combo 150 PSI / 500*F
5v / 1k pull up

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1bbe5c7520.png

No leaks here from where I screwed it in, but seeing a lot of failures in the Haltech group on FB. The thought of a knockoff of a part that may also be somewhat questionable, I would not do it.

Unfortunately my miata project will be winding down in the next year or two, to eventual sale or partout, so I'm not investing time on continued improvements.

The consensus in those Haltech circles is also the Syltech is the way to go. Can also be purchased from platinum racing products in oz, from just up the road from my home town. Wait til black friday and get some free shipping on that shit - I did that already for sensors I planned to use for coolant and fuel pressure. https://www.platinumracingproducts.c...ctions/syltech Bear in mind that is in Aussie pesos, so figure about 2/3 the price. If you wish to buy locally, there are some drift boiz down in Florida who sell Syltech already.