1.6 Turbo Miata Close to Starting After Rebuild
 

Long story short, I rebuilt my turbo 1.6 over the last week or so, and the last couple days, I've had timing hell. I've redone valve timing 10ish times, and all I've achieved is a "close to starting" position. It sounds like it's going to catch, and then dies out. Ignition timing is perfectly 10* BTDC. The cam gear marks are lined up with the marks on the seal plate at TDC, other than the intake cam being shifted one tooth retarded to help reduce valve overlap. Spark in all 4 cylinders, nice strong fuel smell, it has to be timing, but who has tips for how I can set it?

I had this issue when I tried my first start up after my supercharger-uninstall due to a mangled wire coming off the CAS. Not saying that is what your issue it, but it was something out of the ordinary that I didn't even think to check.

Before you try and to crank it again, do a check over of everything.

http://revlimiter.net/blog/wp-conten...9/DSC_1797.jpg
i found that picture really helpful maybe double check that you didnt have intake and exhaust line up mixed up like me

.....:idea:

I actually had this problem months back, and I rewired the sensor completely after replacing the sensor itself. The motor ran fine after that until a few weeks back when I spun a rod bearing. Because of that problem, the first thing I did when it didn't start was check to be sure that all of that wiring was fine.


Yep, some kinda genius huh? Same thing as putting an adjustable cam gear on it and adjusting it to 6* of retard. Also, I set ignition timing while cranking to 10* BTDC after the change, so it wasn't affecting the ignition timing. However, this morning I did rotate it back one tooth the other way, set ignition timing again, and it still won't start.

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Update: I pulled spark plugs today, #2-4 all were black on the tip of the electrode with fuel. #3,4 had black on the threads of the plug. #1 had absolutely no black whatsoever on any part of it.
I have sprayed carb cleaner in the pcv hose port on the manifold, so I still don't think this is a fuel problem. I think I have a 22-year old wiring problem. My injectors are wired for sequential injection, and I am running that really old "MiataLink" version of Link Engine Management. I'd love to switch over to MS or really anything else, but I just spent a good 2-3k in this rebuild, and I'd like to leave that upgrade for somewhere down the road when I can actually already drive the car.

Do you have the coil leads switched?

I thought of that, but I never removed them when I took everything apart. I removed the HT leads from the plugs, and unplugged the connector going to the coils. Then just took out the bolts securing the coils and removed them like that. They went back in the same.

Sorry, I have a bad habit of calling the connectors "leads". Are you sure the connectors are back on the correct coil and that the plug wires are in the right order?

Yes, I've checked the order, but I also did not remove the HT leads from the coils at any point. I only removed them from the spark plugs.
News though. I did a compression test... 140-60-75-100. Then a leakdown test.... Only I can't tell where the air is leaking to. I think it's going out the intake valves, but I think it could be going out the exhaust valves as well. Any thoughts? I couldn't find a procedure for adjusting valve lash... The machine shop assembled the head, minus the cams, and I installed it as returned to me.

Oh and the connectors... There is only one connector that goes to the coils, and it's plugged in. The connectors in the back were never removed.

Compression has to be the problem at this point. I just can't figure out why it has such bad compression in those 3 cylinders. I think the next thing I'm gonna do is loosen up the cam caps so that there is no pressure on the HLAs, and then compression test again. I figure the cams must be pressing down on the lifters some all the time or something... Although there is no way to manually adjust valve lash on this engine. Frustrating situation. I'm a Honda guy. Some of this Miata stuff is new to me.

Take your valve cover off, set the motor to TDC, and photograph the timing belt, cam marks, and camshafts.

Too late for that. Taking the head back off. My valves are staying open with the cams out of the head. Most likely bent, I just can't figure out how that could have happened.

Okay... Updates, if anyone can help.

I compression tested it before the head came out to go to the machine shop again. 140-60-75-100. I got the head back from the machine shop yesterday, and worked all day putting everything together. Tried to start, wouldn't start. Turning over quickly like it wants to. Bought a compression tester today finally, and I'm a little confused about the results. 120-95-100-120. I did reuse my head gasket, but only because it was brand new when I put it together the first time, and it never actually started. It came out of the car looking new, of course compressed some. I torqued the ARP head studs 5lbf ft more than before.

Does anyone know anything about compression test readings? I've never had a rebuilt engine have no compression without it being timing that's wrong.

Oh and that. Timing is perfect, I've read everything online there is to read about setting 1.6 cam timing, and with my 1 tooth intake retard, there are 19 teeth between the 12 o'clock marks on the cam gears.

Please help. I want to drift.

That's more than enough compression for the motor to at least start. You've got something else going on. Not enough fuel? Too much Fuel? Spark? Spark at the wrong time?

My iPhone keeps deleting my posts. This is staying short.

I put oil in all the cylinders and got 180 in cyl 1, then 190 on a second try. Put all the plugs in, put wires on, and cranked it. It fired and turned over for about 1-2 cycles. Then waited for a few minutes, and tried again. It started after a few cranks, and ran with my foot tapping the gas to hold it at about 2k. After about 10 seconds it died. Mad smoke out the exhaust from oil on pistons. I went with a friend to trade his wherls for Si wheels.

When I get home this is my plan: put oil in cylinders, compression test all 4, if they're all good, try to start it again. It ran really rough when it did start, but I kind of expected that on the first start.

Anyone have suggestions? Why the rings wouldn't be holding compression? I'm damn near positive I installed all of them correctly.

So I may have messed up a cylinder. I did the oil thing again, but this time I cranked it for the compression test and heard a pop. Then the #1 cylinder put out a good strong 20 psi. I took the tester out of the cylinder and turned it over and I could hear somewhat of a scraping or more just a moving noise. Very slight. I waited a couple minutes and cranked it again and the noise was gone. My next step will be to remove the pistons and rings, and make sure they're installed correctly. My manual says the middle ring has its groove facing down. Is that right? I believe that's how I installed them.

You guys forget about me..?

Good news! Well kinda. Got home from work, added about a half-cap of engine oil to each cylinder, and compression tested it. 15x across the board. #1 as well. I think I have another problem. This is my normal engine start scenario... I turn my ignition on, and wait until my fuel pump cuts off. Then I crank it, and it starts on the 2nd crank.
Only.. Right now, my fuel pump stays on all the time. Never cuts off if the ignition is on. I have used GND and F/P in the diagnostic connector to cause the pump to run constantly, but never noticed any noises under the hood or anything.. Well, right now I hear fuel running through my FPR. I don't think I ever could before, but I could be wrong. In any case, my AEM wideband is reading --- all of the time, which is the most lean it could read, basically means it doesn't detect fuel. Occasionally, it would alternate between 14.5-15.5 and ---, depending on the rotation of the engine.

I am running that old Link Engine Management "Miatalink". I have sequential injection wired, and I've never had a problem with fuel before.
I really think that this can be fixed without pulling the pistons. I'm so sure I'm gonna spend all day taking my engine apart only to tap the pistons out and see all the rings perfectly installed and staggered. I really do think that I'm not getting fuel. Don't smell any in the exhaust.

Ah, keep thinking of things. I've seen a very very slight bit of blue smoke trailing out of the exhaust, and a good amount blue smoke comes out of the breather on the valve cover. I would suppose that's just blowby, especially with the amount of oil on my pistons, but just figured I'd mention it.

Could really use someone to bounce ideas off of here, as you can probably tell. I kind of have a one-sided conversation going on in this thread...

Sounds like you've got a fuel issue. Any idea what your fuel pressure looks like? Are your injectors clicking?

What did the machine shop say about the stuck open valves?

If you have to consistantly add oil to the cylinders to get respectable numbers, something is wrong. Who built it, and are there pics?

Getting a FP tester today for that purpose, and I have no idea if they're clicking. I haven't had a helper since I've been messing with the fuel system, and even with my remote start, it's loud as shit in my garage just with the engine turning over. Also, I don't have a stethoscope in the house, which is ridiculous. My dad is a doctor, and my mom is a pharmacist, both of whom own their own businesses. Ridiculous.

The machine shop didn't say a damn thing. They suck. Parts didn't even come back as clean as they should have. There were little tiny metal specks like glued into the head. In the cambox of course, not combustion chamber, I have a feeling they aren't going anywhere though.
I took the head back to the shop, and honestly, I just assumed it was that the valves were staying open. I put pressure to the cylinders and I could feel air coming out of the PCV vacuum hose from the IM, but at this point I think I may have imagined it. I know I could feel air coming out of the other spark plug holes, and I thought it was because the pressure was leaving one cylinder through the intake valves, then because of the limited space from the throttle plate, the air was going back through the other open intake valves and up through the combustion chambers. I think what really was happening is the pressure couldn't go past the valves, and it was going straight past rings, pressurizing the crankcase and pushing air out the other cylinders via their ring seats. Which I'm not exactly worried about, I think they need to seat first. Again, I could be wrong. And I have not put pressure into the cylinders since I got the head back from the shop, I've only compression tested it.

EDIT: Just saw that second line. I built it, with the "help" of a friend who has built 8 or 9 Honda engines with me. I've never had to use oil in the combustion chamber to get better compression numbers, but even dry, it should be starting. Dry compression was looking like 100-120 psi. Which is clearly not good, but it's good enough. I've been thinking if I can get it started for any length of time, the rings will seat better than they have so far, and boost that number. I've only been using oil as a supplement, if it can raise my compression by 40 psi on a half cap of oil, I should REALLY be able to start it. Didn't take any pictures myself, but I know my friend did, I have no idea what he took though. I know he didn't take pictures of installed rings. The hone marks in the block are great, the factory hone marks were still showing when I picked this short block up.
I have never built a Miata motor before, and I feel like if this thing was on a stock ecu with a stock wiring harness, I'd have no issues, I think it's just not happy trying to fire with my current EMS settings. So I'm going outside now to try to start it with starting fluid, and also run another round of compression tests dry and wet, before adjusting my cold start settings in my ECU.
I pinched my return line at about 3 this morning and cranked it over a few times, immediately my WB gauge was at 14-15.5. It wasn't even reading that it saw fuel before I pinched the line, so I have a feeling my FPR is leaky, which is what compelled me to buy a pressure tester. If I get no good results right now working on it, I'm gonna go pick that tester up, and test before the rail with and without pressure to the vacuum port on the FPR.

Also, I HAVE done my research, hours and hours of it, about the miata in particular. I am positive that nothing is wrong with the cam timing, the crank pulley and harmonic balancer are brand new. Ignition timing is to spec, and there is good strong spark. I changed out my new 2 step colder iridiums for stock heat range coppers for now. On my ECU's keypad, RPM registers in at 500-550 cranking, which means my CAS signal is good, and it is freshly wired. Those are the things I'd tell someone else to check for if they had this problem. Well other than the fuel delivery issue.

What work did they do? What did they charge you for? What did you say when you dropped it off? What did they say when you picked it up? What's on your invoice for labor/parts?
It seems strange to me to pay for a service, with no idea what was actually performed.

Straight up, took them my head as well as that junkyard short block. I told them I wanted everything cleaned and just serviced for a rebuild. The same shit they always do when I take them parts. I have no idea the machine work they do. I know they hot tank cast iron parts, they honed the block, rebuilt the head for me, did a valve job, cleaned my pistons and rods, and checked all of the parts for straightness/roundness/whatever but I don't know much about it or machine work at all for that matter. It's not my business as long as results are good, so this is the first time that it has been my business. I was charged $213 total for everything, and this shop doesn't give invoices, they don't take cards, cash only... Which is a little strange, yes, but they're legit. This is something like the 30-40th time that I or one of my friends (associates as well, I'm talking 40 year old engine builders) has taken parts to them for a rebuild. One of my old best friends works there part time. The machine shop wasn't at fault. He's aware of the problems I'm having, and the last time I took it to him, he reground valves and valve seats, thinking that metal from my PnP job had gotten in there, and gave it back. He's been at fault 2 instances that I know of from the past out of those 30-40, and both times, he openly admitted it and fixed the problem free of charge, only with mine, the head doesn't seem to have been the problem.

To answer your other questions, I told them to prepare parts for a full rebuild and to rebuild the head with a valve job performed.. Clearly. When everything was finished, they told me all the parts I brought them were good. I put cash in his hand, I walked out with a shiny engine block and rebuilt head. Also, water did not leak past the valves. They're shutting nice and tight, and at the right time.

Updates... Dry compression, closed throttle, cold (obviously)- 120-75-75-75.

What kind of compression should I be seeing with an upside down middle ring? 75? Because here's what I'm thinking.... I used the book to do the first piston, and tapped it into its bore so the staggering wouldn't mess up while I did the other ones. Then the other 3, I did by memory, which doesn't always serve me. It makes sense that I may have installed the first one correctly, and then the next I messed up, and continued the incorrect installation for the other two.

Put a few drops of oil, used starter fluid, took a 5-min long video while I walked around spewing everything that came to mind. Going to post this video so you guys can see what's going on... The last 3 minutes are probably nothing important just as a heads up.

Bump...
Could really use some verification here before I take my engine back apart...
Here's how it looks right now, tell me if this was in your garage not running you wouldn't spend every waking minute trying to get it started.

Actually this isn't how it looks. I took this a few days ago with the head in the machine shop. So it's missing a head in this pic. But still...

Every compression test result I've ever seen has the assumption of open throttle, dry, warmed up engine, battery preferably on a charger/tender so the starter cranks at the same RPM for all cylinders.

Even still there's a lot of room for variances, which is why a leak down is optimal.

That said, it sounds like you're chasing false leads as to the non-start condition. Check/swap your sensors, check/test your wiring. Borrow known working components if possible.

Let me give you a background. I am not in my town. I'm living with my damn parents until I can get this car situation worked out. No one here has provided even an ounce of helpful information. You say I'm chasing false leads, where is your positive lead? You tell me to "check/swap" sensors. Tell me this. What sensors will my car not start without? This is what I think of. Cam angle sensor. O2 sensor (which it will still start, I just assume on engine management that input is necessary.)

My cam angle sensor is months old. I bought a new one CHASING FALSE LEADS and found that it wasn't the problem, but the 22 year old wiring was. I rewired the sensor, and boom, it starts.



I have leakdown tested it, air goes through the crankcase, doesn't hold pressure for shit.

For the fucking compression test, it's cold because it will not start. Opening the throttle gives me no more compression. I have tested it with the battery jumped to a running car, no difference from my battery charger being hooked to it, in performance or cranking speed. At 13.3 volts, I'm getting about 675-700rpm.


I do not have parts available for swapping. I have spent literally $2800 since I started this job. I have checked ALL of my wiring and everything is working properly, correct voltages at all sensors, etc. Fuel on plugs, strong spark, I'm pulling my pistons back out to check the rings.

Have you wet tested all cylinders? Perhaps only one cylinder is wet with oil from assembly.

You need to do the test with a VERY healthy battery or have it jumped to another running car and use wide open throttle for all cylinders.

If a few rings are upside down then yes it will cause this. If it were me Id wet test it, then if it still shows bad readings Id pull the sump off and crank out and check the pistons.

Dann

Don't get all pissy with the MT.net. You're asking for help with an engine that you and your friend of questionable skill built, with no pictures of the build. There isn't much more we can do to help you over the interweb.

Did the engine run fine before the rebuild? If so, unless you changed/messed with the electrical side of things at the same time, I'd lean toward the engine having an issue.

Please read my thread. I've wet tested all cylinders upwards of 20-30 times. I've had the car jumped to another running car (truck actually) since I started trying to get this car running. I now have it plugged up to a battery charger, and the battery is at 13.1-13.4V on my multimeter constantly. I'm tearing the engine down now.

I'm not just getting pissy here. I'm just getting pissy.
I have rebuilt several engines of my own, as well as several more with associates/friends/whatever. I have also worked in repair shops, and done extensive engine work for customers with no problems. This is literally the first rebuild that I've had a problem and not been able to fix it with an hour or two of "checking". Including timing, wiring, etc.
When the engine is apart, I'm going to have a friend take pictures of EVERYTHING. And I mean it. Everything. Both sides of pistons everything. The engine ran perfectly before the rebuild, until it started to smoke. Piston ring problem I assumed, it was symptoms characteristic to worn piston rings. A month or so after that issue arose, I spun a rod bearing. Tore down the engine to find destroyed ringlands on one piston, which explained my smoking issue, and of course, a nice flat bearing on another cylinder's rod. Instead of rebuilding this engine block, I went to the junkyard, and pulled a short block. I used junkyard pistons, rods, crankshaft, and short block for the rebuild. Also oil squirters and pump, basically what came out with the block. I had a '93 long nose short block in it before. The short nose I pulled was the only short block I could find in town.
I used the junkyard baffle and oil pickup tube as well, although I used my previous oil pan, since it already had my turbo's oil return welded into place. Both short blocks came out of Miatas with manual transmissions. The new one had signs of overheating, but not badly enough to have damaged anything. Slight discoloration on piston sides was all. Not egg-shaped or anything else.



That's all the information that was just floating around in my head. Hopefully when it comes all the way back apart, I'll notice something obvious about the rings. Otherwise, I'm done with it, and it's getting towed to somewhere in town to become someone else's headache (for me to pay for).


Sorry I got snappy earlier, and not to make excuses, but I've been nice and sick today, not to mention my dad straight up told me that I personally am tearing my family apart. I haven't had the best day in the world. And I still haven't been able to drive my car for nearly two months.

I just pulled my fuel return and feed, as a last step to remove the head... I haven't had the ignition on since yesterday, and haven't done anything to pressurize the fuel system.
The return line came off first, and poured a good bit of fuel out. I mean it was pressurized, a flowing stream the size of the metal line. I popped the line back on, and pulled the feed to make sure I wasn't crazy and somehow had mixed up the lines. I got a stream out of the feed as well, but not nearly as thick. I put that line back over the metal line, and took the fuel cap off, then pulled both. After that, it was as expected. No fuel in the return, and the feed has a little bit of fuel down the metal line, but nothing leaking out.

My question is... Is that normal for the return to retain that much pressure that it can push the fuel back through the line?

It sounds like you've been through the wringer with this thing.
Trouble is so many components have been sourced/changed/replaced/rebuilt over time it's difficult to do much more than speculate when the only consistent result is the non-start condition (kinda... from your previous posts it sounds like it did start/run briefly?).
I had a non-start condition when I changed my timing belt a few months back, turned out I was an idiot and put the cam gear back on the camshaft in the wrong position. That's something extremely difficult to diagnose in person, much less over a forum. Only way I caught it was to look at 1000 pics of timing belt alignment online and realize that my intake gear was oriented differently than the pics. This sounds like a similar outcome on a much larger scale.

The components in the head + the overall timing is pretty intricate, and there's a lot of places where things can be assembled incorrectly that would cause a non-start condition. I'd focus effort in that area and see if you can find anything.

Good luck, hope you get it figured out.

Thanks for this... Well I have done the same thing you said you did, in that I've found every single picture online of a 1.6 with correct timing, and I've matched my engine to them 100%. I'm sure I have valve timing correct, and the I/E marks on the gears help to keep them from being misaligned, intake cam gets the I on where its dot is, exhaust gets the E. Then the opposite letter points to the seal plate marks.
You're correct, I did get it to run, but only for about 10 seconds while the residual oil in my cylinders burned off lowering compression to the point where it stalled.
I'm convinced it's either a piston ring problem or something is holding the valves open very slightly in 3 cylinders, but even that doesn't seem very likely. Cams are installed correctly, and the machine shop assembled my valves/guides/seals/springs/retainers, I thought maybe I had too much oil in my buckets causing the valves not to completely close, but I've cranked the engine over enough that any extra should have bled out. I've tried to start it enough that I'm actually getting worried about my starter.

Like I said, I'm tearing it down, taking pictures, and then putting it back together. If I can't get it started after it's together again, it's being towed to a shop.

If anyone wants to take a crack at diagnosing my issues thus far, I have taken a few pictures of the cylinder bores, piston tops, deck face, head face, combustion chambers in the head, open valves on intake and exhaust, cam lobes and buckets, and anything I thought may be useful. I even went as far as to show the "EX" and "IN" on top of the cams in the same position.

One thing I found that I thought was a little strange.... There are casting marks on the tops of the pistons, sure, we all know that. Well, my rear 3 pistons have a mark "7" on the top rear, across from the small dot whereas my first piston has the mark "2". I'm about to do a quick google search of that, but I thought I'd mention it here to see if I could get any helpful input about that and my compression numbers.

So uploading to photobucket now. I got something like 27 pictures total. If you want a better picture of something, or a picture of something I left out, let me know and I'll go snap some. I did leave my intake and exhaust manifolds both on, intake I can deal with taking off, but exhaust is going to be one helluva job, so I'd prefer to leave the manifold at least on. I can remove the turbo with little effort.


Now I feel like I need to expand on that... The manifold I have is a cast turbo manifold, top mount. The way the runners are designed, with my heat wrap on, it isn't possible to get to the middle nut with a wrench. I used a flat-blade screwdriver and deadblow hammer to turn the nut into place.

http://s1229.beta.photobucket.com/us...51480277486519

Have you tried checking valve lash yet? See if you can get a feeler gauge between the cam lobes and the buckets with the lobe facing away from it.

Not sure on the 1.6l specs but just see if you have any gap at all.

I haven't tried, but I don't think one would fit at all. My understanding is that the lobes are always resting on the buckets, but until there is pressure on them from the high spots, they don't press on the valve stems.

They aren't solid lifters, they're HLAs.

Also, I can check that the valves aren't staying open, because I can put liquids in the combustion chambers without it leaking through the valve seats.

Think I found the problem. It was clearly the rings. I pulled the pistons out... And there wasn't a single free moving ring on any of the pistons. I finally got all of them out, and there was a slight bit of grit on each of the rings that seems to have seized them into place. I'm replacing the rings and having the pistons hot tanked again, and if that solves my problem, I'll be posting here to let you guys know...

There was a nice 1.5"-2" section between the top 2 rings on each piston that was black from carbon where compression leaked straight past the rings.

:friday: Good shit! You should bring the block with you to the machine shop and have them measure the ring end gaps again just to be 100% sure this time around. Make sure you properly stagger them too.

New rings popped in, put the motor together this afternoon, and it started on the first crank. It drives perfectly, I think I'm pushing about 21 or 22 miles so far. Rings are close to broken in. Not much smoke out the exhaust anymore, still loading and letting the engine brake, 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear.

The only issue I have now... When I start to go into boost, it's fine. As soon as it hits 4-5 psi, I start to hear compressor surge, a lot of it, and my boost gauge flickers between about 2 and whatever it should be. What I've thought of is that my timing could be slightly off causing the pressurized air in the cylinders to be "pushed" back through the intake and through the turbo, but that doesn't seem likely. I counted 19 teeth between the top two marks on my cam gears.

Any ideas? Only at WOT, after I put the wastegate actuator back on. When the actuator was disconnected, I would still build about 4 psi, and didn't have a problem with the compressor surge.

Do you have a bov? Lets see some pics of this thing.

So. Gather round for story time....

I drove it around for 30-40 miles in constant 1-2psi range, then -24in, and repeating. The smoke out the exhaust slowly started to dissipate, and so I started building more boost, revving it up as high as but not surpassing 6000 rpm at any point. 52.7 miles. At 52.7 miles.... Tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap knock knock knock knock knock knock KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK

Clearly a spun rod bearing. Pulled over, called the tow truck, had it towed to a shop I used to work for. Tomorrow, I'm trying to convince my wonderful mother to purchase a used 1.6 for me.

I just did a build that did 2 rod bearings 30km in, pulled it down and linished the crank today.

All bearings were a tiny bit scuffed and all crank machining measurements were well within spec, it just had low oil pressure, probably didnt prime properly or had air in the system. Getting a new set of bearings and an oil pressure guage and all will be fixed.

Ah, what can you do hey?

Dann

I think SprungMS should be put on suicide watch for the next 72hrs.

If you aren't planning on more than 200-250hp, the stock engine can handle that all day with a proper tune.

I'm thinking that's what it's gonna come down to. Not such a huge deal, but I was pushing more than that before... Not really surprised it spun the first bearing, I ran 14 psi on a 60-1 T3/T04E for something like 4-5 months. Not a low mileage motor.

I just don't know what happened. I suppose some RTV could have gotten lodged in the crank ceasing oil flow to a bearing, but other than that I have no idea. I had great oil pressure, 30 at idle, 60+ when on it. Oh wells. Time to find some more money to throw at my car.