2 questions on VTCS-->VICS
 

1) In YellowSR's dyno of VTCS v VICS, (http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=491784) 14whp was gained past 6k rpm with the only adjustment being amount of fuel. This is proof that one could swap VTCS for VICS and increase fuel delivery for 10+ extra whp yes? ?

2) The stock NB2 ECU can not handle the increase flow of the VICS manifold and will run lean.YellowSR said the swap to squaretop did not require much adjustment, I am assuming that he is talking about swapping from VICS to Squartop If fuel looks to be the main problem with making a nb2 run with VICS/Squaretop, is a Powercard to increase fuel or perhaps even a JDM ecu (which I assume is tuned differently to run the Square top) not a reliable and cheap alternative to a standalone?

You must add fuel because you cannot make more power without more fuel. The only way a stock ECU is going to be able to handle the increased flow of the different intake manifold is if the stock ECU was designed to be used with that manifold. If you swap in the different ECU, you will also need to swap in the different fueling system, the different sensors, different head....you might as well sell your car and buy the higher performing car if you really want to use that stock ECU. You can successfully swap in a JDM ECU if you also swap in the rest of the JDM Car that it came with. This will require almost no physical labor on your part: Open garage, swap JDM Car for USDM Car, Close garage - you now have a complete, running JDM ECU! You might have to jump through a bureaucratic hoop or two in the process, but I'm sure that's not such a big deal.

Let me explain the benefits of the powercard. That's all I have to say about that.

Hinano, I appreciate the fact that you've at least done a scampering of research, but your expectations of "power mods" are unrealistic. The VTCS to VICS swap worked BECAUSE of the presence of a standalone ECU, not in spite of it. YellowSR may have only incresed the fuel in some cells, but the standalone ECU did a number of other things to compensate for the fact that more air was going into cylinder. One does not simply bolt on an intake manifold and go. You would probably have better luck installing an "electric supercharger".

If you want more power without the effort, you are going to fall flat on your face. Bolting on "go fast" parts to gain power without also adding the compulsory supporting mods is something that children do. Do yourself a favor and be an "adult". Everytime you pull out your debit card to buy something to increase the power of your car on the stock ECU, punch yourself in the face and put the money you were going to spend in a jar on top of your refrigerator. (You could actually burn the money and get a better return on investment compared to power increasing mods on a stock ECU, no sarcasm.) Once you have punched yourself and stored that money between one and three times (that's all it will probably take), take that money and buy a MegaSquirt. Until then, you can add "performance mods" that increase the handling, braking, safety, suspension, etc., but don't even think about touching the drivetrain. You would have to be a fucking retard to do that after I've enlightened you.

Go out to the world now, do great things.



P.S.
In the future, when you hear the phrase "JDM", understand that whomever said the phrase "JDM" is, most likely, a COMPLETE MORON when it comes to cars. Don't be a COMPLETE MORON when it comes to cars. Don't use the phrase "JDM" for a few years. Don't aspire to become or to impress those who throw around the phrase "JDM" like 2 dollar bills in the strip club. Only on the very rare occassions will you talk to someone who says "JDM" AND knows what they're doing. Swapping in a JDM ECU and expecting your car to run well...or even at all...is akin to swapping your wheels and tires for fan blades and trying to win a competitive racing event. They're both round, but it just doesn't work.

Actually, on the stock ecu you would get proper fueling with the VICS or flattop swap. Because the MAF will read the extra airflow. If the stock ecu was speed density it would probably not supply enough fuel, but with the maf it will.

Its still wont make very much more power because the stock tune is pretty meh, and you'd get more power/dollar out of a MS than putting a flattop on a car with a stock ecu.

This is completely opposite of what many people that tried it (Sav, Emilio, etc) have reported.
They reported that the car in fact, does lean out past 5k.
Are you talking out of your ass again or did you actually try/test this?

I didnt try it. I was quoting Sav after I previously said I wouldn't run a flat top on a stock ecu because to flows so much more air up top than a VICS, it would be dangerous. I'm assuming he's right because it is a MAF car, so it should be able to see the extra air and compensate.

^^^ I had thought that at WOT above 4k RPMs, the stock ECU runs an open-loop map, so the MAF isn't doing anything. This is why you get a lean condition above 4k at WOT where it transitions from stoich to preprogrammed map.

I am not 100% certain, but I would imagine you can run slightly larger injectors (say NB2 injectors on an NB1) to enrich the A/F during open loop if you have a lot of modifications that supply more efficient airflow.

Um if the ECU is in open loop, which means the ecu isnt using o2 sensor feedback, but also isnt using the MAF, exactly what magic is the ecu using to determine the fuel load?

maybe throttle position and rpm. either way, it doesn't adjust real time or you have no idea what open loop fueling means

I would hope that the factory ecu open loop fueling table is rpm vs maf.

:facepalm: the bottom line is it leans out up top in open loop, and in typical leafy fashion you're adding a bunch of theoretical gayness to this thread that may lead OP into bolting this thing on and possibly hurting his car. he's too cheap/poor to do it properly and doesn't have a wideband to test this theory of yours.

FWIW, I ran some dyno+A/F logs with totally stock intake exhaust and later with a DDMworks intake + 01 header, and you can definitely see the decreased airflow resistance is not compensated for and the A/Fs are leaner above 4k. I'll try to post the logs later today.


edit: here you go
WOT A/F log, NB1.
Blue is 100% stock, Red has an DDMworks stage 2 intake and 01+ exhaust manifold.

They both see the about the same A/Fs until around 4500 or so and slowly diverge until redline.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387299720

I couldnt find the one with Sav's reply to my post where I said it would lean out to 15:1. Which does happen on a SD tune when you put a flat top on a car that was tuned for a VICS manifold.

This is the exact opposite of what I have come to understand from reading this forum. It would be great if someone with more experience with the stock ECU would chime in.

For example, post number 3 by Sav in this thread.

They're both full retard today. You are completely right scenturion.

Lots of good info ya'll thanks. :)

The reason I am inquiring about this is because I am trying to avoid a standalone for,
1) College budget
2) Not even willing to get exhaust (hurts my ears/expensive/sound pollution)
3) Might move back to Japan in one year
4) No time to tune and retune because I might be leaving real soon
5) I regularly travel from sea level to 14k feet elevation (more to buy/tune)

So in an effort to find some extra power and fun, I have Konisport/GC coil-overs and 8lb flywheel is on my list but I am looking for some extra power on the cheap. If I cannot get that power, it's fine, I don't need it.

I like intake sound and it's not that loud so I though about doing some intake side modifications. I am going to Japan in the summer so I thought it might be fun to look for a square-top(and or other parts) if unable to get a VICS locally.

So now you know where I'm coming from but have a question, please advise.

1) From what I read, for whatever reason, the stock ECU will not compensate for increased air flow when WOT. This would suggest to me that one should have a wide-band before doing any modifications at all no?

2) How would you guys run a cheap intake side modifications set up?

There's no cheap way to get n/a power out of a BP on stock ECU.

If you are broke, don't modify your car. Its as simple as that.

That's the thing.. I'm not really broke. Also, this is a hobby of mine. Let's just call it a $500 budget for power.

I just spoke to Moss and found out that the Powercard does not adjust fuel at WOT so that will not help..

1) What about a AFPR?

2) What about running larger injectors like Scenturion suggested?

3) For timing, what about just throwing on a $30 5xracing timing wheel and calling it a day?

Buddy, i'm pretty sure you don't know what any of those 3 things mean.


Let me help you out again:

What would help me out is supporting my quest to expand my knowledge. I am quite new to 'tuning' but know a lil bit and believe the above questions are relevant to taking advantage of a higher flowing intake manifold. :x:

They aren't relevant. That's the problem.

You want to do it right? Get a standalone ECU.

So you are saying, both AFPR and bigger injectors will not increase fuel? And that a timing wheel is useless?

Do you have a way to make the AFPR and bigger injectors only work at certain RPMs and above? How about the timing wheel?

A complicated system of pulleys and leeevers.

Yes, AFR at different rpm points is important, I do understand this. I guess I am trying to ask if a AFPR or bigger injectors can support a modest boost in flow from say a intake/VICS.

With the timing wheel, I am not sure at what rpms/load the ecu retards the timing how but considering the idea of only adding intake side modifications, would it be 'sufficient.'

Let me clarify ya'll.. I'm not looking for huge power but if I could spend lets say $50 on DIY intake, $250 for VICS, then 2 or 3 hundred to tweak fuel and timing to run decent(IF possible), it sounds like I can potentially see 10whp.. But maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I am trying to learn.

An AFPR and/or bigger injectors can certainly support a boost in flow from modifications.

What the fuck is AFPR? are you talking about AFRs? or an FPR? You can't just combine two acronyms and call it a day.

Adjustable fuel pressure regulator to fix fudgy AFRs for more power...? Seriously, there is a lot of fail ideas here. This is not the MT cat way...

Okay I'm sorry... My question should have been this,

Does, and if so, to what extent does adding a AFPR or bigger injectors to a NB2 w/stock ECU increase fuel?

Yes.

But for the MILLIONTH TIME, that is all irrelevant if you're too stupid to understand that this FLOW needs CONTROL, and your OEM ECU, does NOT PROVIDE this CONTROL.

If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta spend more money trying to avoid what we're telling you and still end up with dog crap.

Anywhere from 1% increase to 1000% or more.

50+250+300=$600.

You're ready to spend $600 on mods that really aren't going to do much.

Buy a MS used on here, tune it once with everything stock, enjoy a very mild power bump.

But judging by the fact that you won't modify the exhaust, and are concerned modding the intake will be too loud, you won't be doing much of anything at all.

I am unaware of how AFPR and or injectors change the amount of fuel injected. Scenturion made it sound like being at WOT changes something.

I realize that a X amount of increase fuel across the whole rpm band will mean that some areas will be more rich than others.

I understand that the NB2 runs pretty rich up top.

What I still don't know is if the AFPR or injectors run differently at open/closed loop and or if the amount of fuel is static rather than adjusted by whatever other condition.

I'm researching and learning.

What about a rising rate fpr?

Also, where can I get some info on the functioning if the injectors?

Let me convince you to help me Let me google that for you

what the fuck do you want? Everyone has already told you, get a standalone or don't do this. Yet you are still talking about injectors...

The answer is in the thread, you just need to convince yourself to do it.

How does open/closed loop work exactly?

How and why does AFR change in open/closed loop?

What affect will a rising rate FPR on a stock N/A NB2 have?

What affect will bigger injectors on a stock N/A NB2 have?

Computers

Computers

Aids

Aids

GO READ SHIT AND LEARN FOR YOURSELF.

I'm almost positive he is just trolling

1) open/closed loop can be different. I think the general consensus is an open loop system doesn't use the o2 sensor to adjust AFRs anymore. Whether the MAF and/or other sensors are used is anybodies guess and probably dependent on application and manufacturer. It seems earlier testing would indicate the MAF is not being used and/or ECU doesn't fully compensate for additional airflow due to mods.

2) AFRs tend to get much richer vs closed loop. In closed loop the ECU will run you at/close to stoich. In open loop its some AFR value that is much richer than that. a stock miata might run below 12. if you run enough mods, it might run at 13? You could put a turbo on there, add no extra fuel and run at 17 if you like. I also heard that moving the injectors to the exhaust side has some cooling benefits.

3 & 4) I will look out for your for sale thread.

New rule. if you have more negative props than posts...BANNED!

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3008723456/h8228A933/

Needs a 5th injector setup.

Why don't you get a Civic? I hear they're pretty popular.

But the LOLs... Really, I agree.



Yes you ARE broke, clearly more so than the measly $500 you have to spend on this "hobby".



Yes you ARE broke, clearly more so than the measly $500 you have to spend on this "hobby". - TWICE BECAUSE YOU DEFINATELY WON'T GET IT THE FIRST TIME.


Yes you ARE broke - Someone make a meme about, "one does not simply budget $500 for racecar" or something!

$500 budget...because racecar!

btw we can just delete every post after #15

Thank you for your help. I have copied and pasted below some info from Mnet to share learnings. Also below is a exerpt from Solomiata from his experience with his 1.6L. I'll keep researching. :)

Solomiata "I used the Downing/Sebring fuel regulator unit myself. It is a variable rate of gain model so it can be set to change the fuel pressure at different vacuum levels. I went this route so that only the WOT fuel was altered and not idle or mid throttle, where the O2 sensor will compensate if needed. I increased the WOT fuel pressure from 43.5 to 50 psi based on my fuel/air ratio gauge readings."

Not one person on here cares what m.net has to say.

Nope, no such luck; at least if his threads (all 43 in less than 5 months!) over on Miata.net are any indication, then unfortunately that's probably not the case.

I'll just say one thing to a couple people I won't name...

I am understanding of the fact that we are all on different stages of developing our emotional intelligence but some of you guys really need to stop being such control freaks LOL.

With that said, I would like to reference two quotes which I believe non of you can disagree with.

“The aim of education should be to teach us rather how to think, than what to think - rather to improve our minds, so as to enable us to think for ourselves, than to load the memory with thoughts of other men” James Beattie

"Knowledge will give you power, but character respect" Bruce Lee

Have a nice day homies.

It has nothing to do with being a control freak or not. Are you sure you aren't just throwing around phrases and/or words in order to just vomit something into an internet post?

You have to see how frustrating it gets when you come on here without knowing much, and refusing to do any sort of research to gain any small modicum of understanding that which you're trying to discuss, right? We will not spoon feed. Help you help yourself.

Your point is valid except that I am not not doing research. I am doing allot of research and am trying to learn as much as possible as fast as possible. Control has to do not with requesting me to do my own research, that is valid. Control is insisting that other should follow what you say, simply because you and or others believe it is the right thing to do.

The quotes above have to do with supporting a humans curiosity and drive to fully understand and think for themselves rather than just accepting what others say. This is a individualistic, and VERY beautiful ideological character of American culture.

Correct me if I am wrong but a online forum = socializing, learning and teaching

“A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.”
-Frank Zappa

"A mind is like a parachute. It will not open if we don't construct it with great care, knowledge and skill"

- Me, inspired by Frank Zappa & fooger03

You are very obviously not researching in the manner which we call researching, which is reading things online without asking questions. We dont just hand out answers to rudimentary questions which would have been answered if you would do a short google search for the answer.

Guys,


What is the meaning of life?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387403255

Leafy, I suggest you look at your own posts in this thread. EVEN YOU are asking questions and trying to learn.

This one is easy! If we are talking about what is important to us humans..There even has been some research done on older people on their deathbeds.

Summary = Family, friends, love and personal development.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387468992

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1387469094

http://web-images.chacha.com/images/...-1-600x500.jpg

http://rlv.zcache.com/philosoraptor_..._8byvr_512.jpg