300ZX Turbo to Downpipe Bolts
10-28-2014, 08:52 AM
#21
Define "brittle". Grade 12.9 minimum elongation requirement is 8% vs. 9% for grade 10.9. 1% difference makes it brittle?
Those are spec minimums. Actual condition is usually >12% elongation. Maybe not 30% of some low strength mild steel but hardly what I consider "brittle".
Regular 12.9 steel fasteners are not great for this application but it certainly isn't because they are "brittle".
Those are spec minimums. Actual condition is usually >12% elongation. Maybe not 30% of some low strength mild steel but hardly what I consider "brittle".
Regular 12.9 steel fasteners are not great for this application but it certainly isn't because they are "brittle".
Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 10-28-2014 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Silly autocorrect
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10-28-2014, 10:18 AM
#22
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How can Nissan source Inconel so much cheaper than anyone else ?!
Material and machining the stuff is expensive
Inconel studs are cost prohibitive on OEM vehicles.
Inconel:
Inconel again :
This blackened, mass produced **** is not inconel:
And again:
Not inconel
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10-28-2014, 11:02 AM
#23
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A turbo vehicle warrantied for 100K miles is using appropriate high-heat fasteners in selected locations. Inconels (a family of nickel-based alloys originally developed in the 1940s) are one of the most cost-effective high-heat fasteners around when purchased in bulk.
The black in your picture is a surface treatment (black oxide). It's not the natural color of the material. The Nissan bolts discussed in the original post of this thread are an Inconel even though they have black oxide surface treatments.
Inconel alloys, in addition to high-heat strength, have Ctes extremely similar to cast iron/mild steel making them ideal turbo fasteners. Google material properties.
The black in your picture is a surface treatment (black oxide). It's not the natural color of the material. The Nissan bolts discussed in the original post of this thread are an Inconel even though they have black oxide surface treatments.
Inconel alloys, in addition to high-heat strength, have Ctes extremely similar to cast iron/mild steel making them ideal turbo fasteners. Google material properties.
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10-28-2014, 01:54 PM
#26
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Black Oxide is one of many finishes that can be applied to almost any fastener, including Inconels. https://www.fastenersclearinghouse.c...5=&Cat6=&Cat7=
All metals (except Au) corrode.
Last edited by hornetball; 10-28-2014 at 02:18 PM.
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10-28-2014, 02:14 PM
#27
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i reckon they black oxide treat them cos they want to reduce they're profit margin just a little bit more after using inconel
Also I might start selling these Inconel nissan studs to FM and BEGI
I mean even if we split the profit there's about $7.50 profit each per stud
Also I might start selling these Inconel nissan studs to FM and BEGI
I mean even if we split the profit there's about $7.50 profit each per stud
Last edited by Lloyd_D; 10-28-2014 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Twats
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10-28-2014, 04:43 PM
#28
I think we should ban the term "inconel" on this forum.
There are so many grades of "inconel" with a wide variety of properties (and cost). I could do a full lab grade battery of tests on the Nissan bolts to show exactly what chemistry and grade it is, but it doesn't matter.
The costs of the various inconel grades vary wildly, probably because their chemical make ups also vary wildly. Do you think an inconel grade with 40% nickel is going to cost the same as one with 70%. What about one grade that is triple re-melted versus one that can be single melted?
Just because the Nissan bolts are cheaper and less shiny than some random pictures of inconel doesn't mean jack diddly.
I seriously doubt Nissan used the fanciest, most expensive aerospace grade of "inconel". No, I'd be willing to bet they chose one of the much lower alloyed, simpler processed grades of "inconel". I bet they chose one that would fit their needs for the lowest cost possible.
Here's what really matters though. DO THEY WORK? Do they work as turbo hardware and do they not creep like a stainless or regular steel stud would? That's all that matters. It doesn't matter if they're made from grade 718, 720 plus, Rene 65, Monel, grade 600 or rhino horns and unicorn jizz. It doesn't matter if they're coated, shiny, rainbow colored, etc etc etc.
The next time we're going to argue about "inconel" maybe we should get educated and talk about specifics and not ridiculous generics.
Also, this thread has turned to poop.
What I really want to know is this, who has used the Nissan parts (or Mazda RX-7) and had success with them?
There are so many grades of "inconel" with a wide variety of properties (and cost). I could do a full lab grade battery of tests on the Nissan bolts to show exactly what chemistry and grade it is, but it doesn't matter.
The costs of the various inconel grades vary wildly, probably because their chemical make ups also vary wildly. Do you think an inconel grade with 40% nickel is going to cost the same as one with 70%. What about one grade that is triple re-melted versus one that can be single melted?
Just because the Nissan bolts are cheaper and less shiny than some random pictures of inconel doesn't mean jack diddly.
I seriously doubt Nissan used the fanciest, most expensive aerospace grade of "inconel". No, I'd be willing to bet they chose one of the much lower alloyed, simpler processed grades of "inconel". I bet they chose one that would fit their needs for the lowest cost possible.
Here's what really matters though. DO THEY WORK? Do they work as turbo hardware and do they not creep like a stainless or regular steel stud would? That's all that matters. It doesn't matter if they're made from grade 718, 720 plus, Rene 65, Monel, grade 600 or rhino horns and unicorn jizz. It doesn't matter if they're coated, shiny, rainbow colored, etc etc etc.
The next time we're going to argue about "inconel" maybe we should get educated and talk about specifics and not ridiculous generics.
Also, this thread has turned to poop.
What I really want to know is this, who has used the Nissan parts (or Mazda RX-7) and had success with them?
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10-28-2014, 04:49 PM
#29
many of us, yours truly included.
however, I have seen (and personally extracted) slightly stretched poverty inconel studs mentioned above, from a subaru before.
so maybe they're somewhere in between regular steel and balleur inconel, and maybe this isn't as cut/dry as we make it out to be, but the bottom line is your question: do they work better than regular steel studs? yes.
I think that's the most important part.
however, I have seen (and personally extracted) slightly stretched poverty inconel studs mentioned above, from a subaru before.
so maybe they're somewhere in between regular steel and balleur inconel, and maybe this isn't as cut/dry as we make it out to be, but the bottom line is your question: do they work better than regular steel studs? yes.
I think that's the most important part.
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10-28-2014, 07:28 PM
#30
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a) They are not made from steel be it grade 8, 10, 12 etc which are all magnetic.
b) They are most likely not made from ferritic stainless steels with a relatively high concentration of iron. ie not 304, 316 etc. Lower grades of stainless are nearly always are mildly magnetic.
c) They are probably (Pauli Exclusion Principle) made from a highly austenitic stainless steel grade with a low to zero iron content and a high nickle content, something like 718 stainless.
As for color the Nissan 1406440P01 stud threads are rolled as opposed to cut and have a dull / tarnished surface as opposed to a black finish or shiny one.
So why does the aftermarket charge such a high price for 718 stainless and equivalent studs? Nickel is 7$ per lb but this does not explain the typical 25$ stud / 500$/lb price. Recently I got quotations for m8 and m10 718 studs and got offers around 5$ per piece FOB, all be it for larger quantities. Nissan for sure have better prices.
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10-28-2014, 08:08 PM
#31
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Why don't we have a poop smiley?
I have used the Nissan 14434-V0301 M8x1.25 bolts on my turbo to downpipe connection for about 20K miles including a fair amount of track time. No issues.
For the really high-heat manifold to turbo connection, I'm using TSE's 10mm studs. Again, no issues. Andrew spent a fair amount of time selecting the best Inconel alloy for the job and sized it correctly.
Does that help?
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03-06-2015, 01:19 PM
#34
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Ok, I'm putting my flame suit on now & double posting. We bought a set of the Nissan 14064-40P01 studs to evaluate them. They don't look like Inconel, and they don't cost like Inconel. So, I called up my Nissan rep & asked him to contact Nissan Technical for me to find out what these studs are made of. According to Nissan Technical:
"The engineering drawing identifies this stud to be made of “AISI 660” with “bonderizing” surface treatment, which is an anti-corrosion phosphate coating. So, not Inconel, but corrosion resistant."
There you have it. If you'd like to compare this to our FM Inconel 718 hardware, ours has a minimum strength of 220 ksi. If you look up Inconel 718 it’ll tell you 180, but ours are heat treated twice.
"The engineering drawing identifies this stud to be made of “AISI 660” with “bonderizing” surface treatment, which is an anti-corrosion phosphate coating. So, not Inconel, but corrosion resistant."
There you have it. If you'd like to compare this to our FM Inconel 718 hardware, ours has a minimum strength of 220 ksi. If you look up Inconel 718 it’ll tell you 180, but ours are heat treated twice.
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03-06-2015, 01:29 PM
#35
And it looks like 660 ranges from 98ksi to 190ksi tensile strength dependent on processing. This does seem like a correct material to use for this application. Its still the best budget choice and is going to be superior to normal stainless or mild steel studs. If these are not enough for you, then you might as well go all the way to 10mm inconel studs.
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03-06-2015, 02:21 PM
#36
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Just bought another set of the 718 inconel studs from FM. Thanks guys!
I have the Nissan OE bolts for turbo to downpipe, and since 'standard' studs don't belong within a 10ft radius of a turbo manifold, I also have a set of the nissan studs for turbo->manifold back-ups in case I need a replacement just to get home. But limp-home back-ups are all they are.
-Ryan
I have the Nissan OE bolts for turbo to downpipe, and since 'standard' studs don't belong within a 10ft radius of a turbo manifold, I also have a set of the nissan studs for turbo->manifold back-ups in case I need a replacement just to get home. But limp-home back-ups are all they are.
-Ryan
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03-06-2015, 08:12 PM
#39
I remember my first time reading sarcasm on the internet...
I'm going to develop a stud kit made from maraging steel with 350 ksi tensile strength...suck on that FM with your 220 ksi 718... child's play.
Wait, nope, I'm going to develop a stud kit made from precipitation strengthened 13-8 stainless steel...that has 205 ksi tensile strength! And it's stainless! And they use it in planes and stuff! And it's cheaper than "inconel"!!!
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