Buyers remorse Force Flow 640cc E85
 

The more I read about e85 the more I am liking it. This car will be an around town ride and there are several stations with magic corn. I went with 640cc because I initially was looking up to 300whp someday when I source another 1.8 along with 6 speed to build up. Now it seems I should have gone with 1000s right off the bat.E85 and its ability to fight knock is just too fucking cool. E10 sucks all the dicks though. None of the upside and it murders my old carbed motorcycles.

1. If I decide to go with e85 with my track speed kit and 640cc what can I expect to top out at on the fuel side? 200whp? 225whp? If I can do 225whp that may be perfect for now until I get another motor finished.

Edit* AHH looks like I found the answers after I posted this. Seems I am fine when I run it on the calculators I found in a thread. Looking at like 80%ish depending on the calculator for 225-250 whp

2. Can stock fuel pump without fpr and return line handle that? I have searched some of this but e85 info is kind of scattered. I am willing to upgrade my pump and fuel lines in need be.

*Edit seems the fuel pump can handle this as well. I will read up more on return line and pressure regulator.

Setup
Stock 1.8 145,000 miles fresh timing belt
Trackspeed EFR6258 (Undecided on intercooler but may go smaller if I decide on E85)
Reverant MS3
Force flow 640cc
Stock fuel system
5 speed (shopping for the right clutch)
Torsen


Still wouldn't mind hearing experiences.

I don't think the stock pump will keep up at 250 on corn
but a dw200 is cheap and easy

640's will likely support even more than 250 at full tilt with a good pump
you'll likely break your 5sp before you find the limit. or your rods

Yeah I had a feeling. The calculators are around 50 pounds for 250whp. A $100 dw200 makes sense. Should I run a FPR and return line just to be safe?

I am already on the look out for a new block and 6 speed even though I would really prefer a 5 speed. I hate 6 speeds.

Shit. Another local.

What year is your miata. You need an FPR if you want to crank up the pressure to get more flow. You might be fine with the stock FPR for now.

5 speeds are weak. You dont want a 5 speed. You hate 5 speeds. You prefer 6 speeds.

It is 94 with a hard top that took months of waiting to find. Wanted 94 or 95. I love Big Brother and 6 speeds. I love Big Brother and 6 speeds.

If its a 94 you already have a return line. Just keep the stock FPR for now until you know if you need to upgrade.

What stations around have e85? I thought it was only jays garage.

Alternative Fuel Fill Stations and Prices

If this website is correct then there is a space age 162nd and Glisan and a place called Bob's on 82nd near Happy Valley. Both not so great places for you rich folk on the nicer side of the river. I am going to drive by on these places to confirm they actually have it.

Google says bobs is closed permanently.

I just finished installing a flex fuel sensor, so I want to play with it at some point.

Not surprised. If I can confirm 2 reasonably close sources I am going to go for it. I know there is place down in Milwaukie as well that also sells pure that is listed. I have been there before. Not super close but possibly an option even though I hate getting near that city with their economy based on how many tickets their cops can pass out. I work mostly near PDX Airport and live just east of the 205 so if that 162nd and Glisan one is legit I can use that along with a few jerry cans.

Well good luck. I travel for track days way too often to run full e85. Thats why I installed the GM Flex fuel sensor.

Is that sensor actually working out for you? I have been reading on it and it seams to be a pain to actually get working. I would go that sensor direction as well.

Not yet. But I know it seems to be working for Savington. And another local, yank has it running too. The sensor works fine. The tuning for it is a bit of a black hole.

I bet it is but when it is actually sorted out it is going to be sweet. Then I can hopefully get it spoon fed. I may try and drive by that Glisan location tomorrow for an update.

Most of us locals hang out over here: Official PDX Lounge - Page 816 - ClubRoadster.net

If you are into track stuff there is a track day at PIR on thursday, and they are super lax on the passenger rules so you can get rides if you ask nice.

I am not planning on tracking any time soon. I would have to cut back on too many other hobbies to do it but I am down to meet new peeps and definitely down to do a ride along. No problem with wrench turning to help out. Will change tires for food type shit.

E85 Gas stations in the NW


well fuck. not looking good for Glisan. I am not going to do this if there is only one inconvenient location for me to get my fix.

I'm like 90% sure that Jay's garage is the only place to get it.

Install walbro 450, install adjustable FPR, find corn, and run 72psi of base pressure. DW200 cannot keep up at the pressures you will need to run, the walbro is a twin stacked pump in one housing and it just happens to be cheaper too.

Flow force injectors are right at 800cc at 4 bar, they love allthepressure and will idle even gasoline just fine at higher pressures. ~800cc of flow should be good for around 300whp on corn, but that's about it.

Every single alternative fuel finder website on the internet is wrong, at least in my experience...

I have 640s. Are you saying they run out to 800 if pushed?

Yes. Flow is dependent on pressure. More pressure more flow.

More fuel pressure means more fuel flow with the same pulsewidth. The only disadvantage is you will also increase idle fuel flow, and it'd be possible to get way too rich at idle with no way to correct. In my experience that won't happen with flow force injectors, not even a 1.6 on gasoline.

You have 42.5psi base pressure at atmospheric, run it up to 72psi or 4 bar and you get free 800cc injectors. You just have to make sure your fuel pump can flow enough at that higher pressure. Remember the rail is manifold referenced, so if you are running 20psi of boost you need a pump that can flow enough volume at 92psi, otherwise your pressure will drop and your injectors will shrink where you actually need em.

Edit: Maths for volume to horsepower...

Numbers..

.91BSFC for e85, 350hp for 80%dc at crank= ~318lbs/hr

318lbs/hr / 6.59lbs/gal = ~49gal/hr

72psi + 10-14 pounds of boost = ~90psi at WOT

You'd need a pump that does ~45 gal/hr@92psi to run 72psi, the warb is really the only single pump solution I know of at the moment.

Walbro450 is beast. Check my build thread, I'm about to drop one in next week probably. I'm controlling it with PWM so I don't have to run it at full tilt all the time.

If it runs at full tilt all the time and you don't need it most of the time I take it your FPR is running g overtime to bleed of pressure right?

Not really, the fuel just circles around over and over again. The walbro runs more amps with more restriction from the FPR from increased rail pressure. At 43.5psi it's around 180W, up to 240W at 90 psi. Since the FPR is manifold referenced actual current draw will vary.

For a comparison a walbro 190 would be turning around 70W at 43 psi.

If you get a proper fpr, its fine.
Stock fpr is on borrowed time with a 450.

plenty of people here have splooged their stock fpr with even a wally 255hp.
even if it doesn't get overwhelmed I'd imagine it would be unstable pretty often trying to bleed off all that fuel. just a thought

^^the reason PWM fuel pump control needs to become the norm. :)

Yeah lot's of newer OEM's use that now too

FYI, this is the only accurate map for E85 stations around me: Alternative Fuels Data Center: Ethanol Fueling Station Locations

Maybe it's accurate for you as well. Every other one I've tried is either outdated, or just plain wrong.

This site also provides a "last confirmed" date if you look at the details for a station. Helps provide a little more confidence. I've been thinking hard about E85 of late. I've got a station very close to my house, I think I'm going to try it on my next tank of fuel.

I have mine all wired outside the car. Track day tomorrow then I'll get to installing it.