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Old 02-07-2014, 07:16 PM   #1
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Red face Fired up the new setup/engine, weird issue

My thread:
https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...8/#post1100095

Details:
2001 engine
ms3x
ID1000's
e85

Here is the post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Ok, so good news and bad:

I go to start the car just now, it fired up like a champ. I think the stupid gas station sold me regular gas not e85 so I adjust req fuel to pump gas setting and it ran great.

30 seconds later it shuts down abruptly. does not restart no matter what. I give it about 10 minutes, it restarts perfectly and runs for about 30 seconds, then same crap again: shuts down wont restart no matter what. Crank and crank til the battery dies. I put charger on it. Waiting for it to get some juice.

Also its showing "VVT1 error" on the bottom.
I'm pretty sure I set timing right, replaced all the vvt solenoid seals and gaskets, everything is top notch.


Its driving me bananas

What the crap is "VVT1 error"? Someone know? is it just the solenoid not operating, or cam out of place, or what?
So I've done this like 5 times now. When the engine catches it runs okay. Most other times it doesn't. I can get it to start by varying throttle, and it will catch, run REALLY ROUGH, and SUPER RICH.

Like, no matter what I do to fuel settings, its rich and rough, sounds like its on 2-3 cylinders.
Also no matter what I do to the trigger offsets, it does the same thing.

Is it possible that my intake cam is 180*? Or off a lot, enough to cause the engine to flip out? I did set it perfectly according to writeups/specs.
Can the marks line up and everything be good but one of the cams is somehow way off like that? the intake cam there's 1 alignment hole in the pulley for the cam, so I can't comprehend how it could be that much off.

But its driving me crazy.

PLEASE HELP if anyone has any ideas.
Thanks

PS: I'm letting it charge up again and will do a log and composite log if needed.
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:12 PM   #2
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Logs attached.

It seems that my vvt is stuck at full advance.

any ideas?
Attached Files
File Type: msl 2014-02-07_16.08.05.msl (94.1 KB, 57 views)
File Type: csv 2014-02-07_16.08.52.csv (42.0 KB, 48 views)
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:21 PM   #3
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Dumb question and please forgive me for asking, but did you do the timing procedure where you line up the timing marks at TDC, then rotate the engine 1-5/8 turns (or abouts) and then line up the timing mark on the pulley with the "Tension" timing mark on at approximately the 10 0'clock point on the timing cover? You don't tighten down the tensioners until you get to that point. From there, rotate the engine a couple more times and check timing...

I had a similar problem on a car I did timing on a couple months ago. Sounds like the same problem.

https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...7/#post1024187

Quote:
After you have rotated the engine enough times and your timing marks still line up, rotate one and 5/8 turns approximately and try and line up the mark on the cam sprocket with a secondary arrow at approximately the 10 o'clock position. Tighten your tension pulley. Check a couple more times to make sure you are still hitting your timing marks. I am guessing that the tension mark at 10 o'clock is there because it is at a place where the valve springs coordinate to work with the tension pulley to give just the amount of tension.
ETA: Also, it is my understanding that part of the tension procedure is making sure that the VVT is pre-loaded correctly or else your cams might be advanced even to start, and when the oil pressure starts to come up it gets worse...
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:43 PM   #4
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I'm a noob, and I don't know jack about megasquirt, but I have some thoughts on the VVT. Since it runs off oil pressure, that's probably why the engine cranks and runs for 30 seconds after a rest. Then when you start it, the oil pressure comes up after 30 seconds, activates the VVT and kills the engine.

Seems like it's either the VVT solenoid, or something wrong in the seals or valving in the VVT mechanism. If it's the solenoid, or the MS is activating the soilenoid when it shouldn't, you should be able to unplug it and the problem will go away.

Did you, by any chance, disassemble the cylindrical VVT thingey that mounts to the front of the intake cam pulley? I accidentally did that on mine recently during a motor swap, and the internals were baffling. I couldn't figure out how it worked. With all the small parts that go into that thing, it would be easy to miss something on the reassembly.

Or there could be an o-ring missing on the solenoid, or on the vertical tube that slots into the valve cover as you reassemble it.

Anyway, good luck with it. It's got to be aggravating to run into something like this after all the work you've put into your build.

Dave
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:47 AM   #5
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You are sure your timing belt is on right? Or did you not take the timing belt off?
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:47 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Heron View Post
...Since it runs off oil pressure, that's probably why the engine cranks and runs for 30 seconds after a rest. Then when you start it, the oil pressure comes up after 30 seconds, activates the VVT and kills the engine.
This is what I was thinking too...

Quote:
If it's the solenoid, or the MS is activating the soilenoid when it shouldn't, you should be able to unplug it and the problem will go away.
If the VVT is actuating when it shouldn't then I believe unplugging the solenoid would leave it to work like a fixed degree cam.

Quote:
Did you, by any chance, disassemble the cylindrical VVT thingey that mounts to the front of the intake cam pulley? I accidentally did that on mine recently during a motor swap, and the internals were baffling. I couldn't figure out how it worked. With all the small parts that go into that thing, it would be easy to miss something on the reassembly.
I too disassembled mine on accident not realizing I could remove the whole thing in one piece. I was able to reassemble mine without an issue once I spent some time messing with it.[/QUOTE]

I still think it's something to do with pre-load on the VVT advancing cylinder thingy. Can't wait to hear the results.
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Old 02-08-2014, 02:39 AM   #7
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Thanks for the input guys.

-I didn't take apart the vvt mechanism in the cam gear, just took the gear off and put it back on.
-I did change all the o-rings and seals everywhere with OEM Mazda ones
-I did set the timing per the marks, and I did rotate it and all was well.
-I didn't, however check that the 1st cyl was at TDC when I set the timing marks. Is this the possible culprit?
-I covered the vvt mechanism with VHT clear and when I threw it in the oven to cure there was a plastic plug in it that melted. I cleaned ALL of the stuff off/out and triple checked that no bits were still remaining/stuck anywhere.
-I did try disconnecting the vvt plug, that didn't do anything. I also disabled vvt in the MS, and that too didn't do anything.

At this point though I'm thinking its probably not MS related and will be double checking the OCV solenoid that goes into the vvt mechanism tomorrow to see that its functioning properly, and if that's not it I guess I'll pull off the covers yet again (my 2nd time with this motor) and checking yet again that the belt is done right.

Keep up the good suggestions, nothing is being ignored and all input is appreciated. I agree that its either vvt valve or timing belt at this point. Lets hope so.
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Old 02-08-2014, 06:11 AM   #8
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This may sound stupid, but, you have connected your MAP line, and the grounds on the intake manifold, by the TB, right?
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Old 02-08-2014, 12:07 PM   #9
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I know NOTHING about VVT, but I'd definitely check mechanical timing first. Long socket extension (I think mine is 12") to verify #1 is at TDC, and then check that your pulley is pointing to the T on the timing cover (if that still exists on a VVT engine), and check that the cams at that point are pointing at 9:00 and 3:00 for intake and exhaust respectively, and that the sprockets are pointing correctly.

Is there a way to disable VVT? Almost sounds like some sort of after start enrichments or warmup enrichments are shutting off after start up in 30 seconds and killing the engine.

There's also always the option of draining the tank and pumping good gas or e85 from one bucket to another to flush the lines to make sure you know what gas you're dealing with.
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Old 02-08-2014, 01:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
-I didn't, however check that the 1st cyl was at TDC when I set the timing marks. Is this the possible culprit?
If the crank was off TDC by more than a few ribs when you set your cam pulleys, I don't think it would start. But if you're going to pull the timing belt covers off again, go ahead and pull the lower one so you can see the mark on the crank timing pulley and line it up with the mark on the front seal housing.

Dave
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
This may sound stupid, but, you have connected your MAP line, and the grounds on the intake manifold, by the TB, right?
Yes all are connected and secured perfectly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
I know NOTHING about VVT, but I'd definitely check mechanical timing first. Long socket extension (I think mine is 12") to verify #1 is at TDC, and then check that your pulley is pointing to the T on the timing cover (if that still exists on a VVT engine), and check that the cams at that point are pointing at 9:00 and 3:00 for intake and exhaust respectively, and that the sprockets are pointing correctly.

Is there a way to disable VVT? Almost sounds like some sort of after start enrichments or warmup enrichments are shutting off after start up in 30 seconds and killing the engine.

There's also always the option of draining the tank and pumping good gas or e85 from one bucket to another to flush the lines to make sure you know what gas you're dealing with.
already tried disabling vvt, does nothing. that's why I'm starting to be convinced that this is a hardware issue and not MS related.
Yeah one of my next things on the list is to start checking the mechanical timing.
Can this be moved to the general or engine section?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Heron View Post
If the crank was off TDC by more than a few ribs when you set your cam pulleys, I don't think it would start. But if you're going to pull the timing belt covers off again, go ahead and pull the lower one so you can see the mark on the crank timing pulley and line it up with the mark on the front seal housing.

Dave
Ok. But I know for 150% that the mark on the crank pulley was dead on, I checked it like 5 times.
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:20 PM   #12
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Which firmware are you on?
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Old 02-08-2014, 03:26 PM   #13
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1.2.3

car ran flawlessly on this firmware and this tune and these injectors, etc on the stock engine I just pulled out.
this engine is exactly the same year/etc but just built.
nothing else was changed.
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Old 02-08-2014, 04:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Can this be moved to the general or engine section?
Done.

My pulley slipped 90*, still ran fine when timed to the bad timing mark. If I floored it, it took around 5-10 seconds to get to 3000rpm. Sounded really bad, but ran "smoothly", just no power.

So verify that mechanical timing!
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:13 PM   #15
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Bad gas can do wacky things. I once filled up an old Suzuki GSX-R, it ran fine a little ways up the road to where I parked it, and then later when I went to ride it, every couple of miles it would go from running perfectly to completely bogging down and eventually stalling. Let it sit for 10 minutes, and it would run perfectly again, for a couple of miles. This repeated a few times until I got it to a point where I could get it towed. The following day it did the same thing. I changed out the gas, and never had a problem again.

I'm not convinced that this is your issue, but it's an easy variable to eliminate.
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Old 02-08-2014, 05:26 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
-I covered the vvt mechanism with VHT clear and when I threw it in the oven to cure there was a plastic plug in it that melted. I cleaned ALL of the stuff off/out and triple checked that no bits were still remaining/stuck anywhere.
-I did try disconnecting the vvt plug, that didn't do anything. I also disabled vvt in the MS, and that too didn't do anything.

At this point though I'm thinking its probably not MS related and will be double checking the OCV solenoid that goes into the vvt mechanism tomorrow to see that its functioning properly, and if that's not it I guess I'll pull off the covers yet again (my 2nd time with this motor) and checking yet again that the belt is done right.
Baked (how hot) the VVT and it's stuck open?
Is there and reasonable easy way to block the oil going there (for test purposes without disassemble)?
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Old 02-09-2014, 03:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
Baked (how hot) the VVT and it's stuck open?
Is there and reasonable easy way to block the oil going there (for test purposes without disassemble)?
I'm guessing he baked it at 400 or 600 for 30min to cure the paint. I'm curing my manifold right now using the same paint.

Blocking off the oil would be an incredibly bad idea as IIRC the cam journal gets its oil from the VVT mechanism rather than from an oil passage in the head.
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Old 02-09-2014, 03:42 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Blocking off the oil would be an incredibly bad idea as IIRC the cam journal gets its oil from the VVT mechanism rather than from an oil passage in the head.
Forgot that one, sorry.
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Old 02-09-2014, 08:36 PM   #19
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I dont have MLV on this computer. Did you take a composite log to make sure the cam sensor didnt randomly decide it didnt like life any more. I really hate our cam sensors.
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Old 02-09-2014, 10:34 PM   #20
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I'm not sure you should have cured the actuator in the oven it looks like there are some rubber seals inside the actuator, curing in the oven may have damaged them resulting in a actuator that can not control cam position.

Quote:
-I covered the vvt mechanism with VHT clear and when I threw it in the oven to cure there was a plastic plug in it that melted. I cleaned ALL of the stuff off/out and triple checked that no bits were still remaining/stuck anywhere.
-I did try disconnecting the vvt plug, that didn't do anything. I also disabled vvt in the MS, and that too didn't do anything.
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