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Old 02-17-2014, 07:47 PM   #181
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No, the 6D is gone but it did start with the squaretop back when I 1st fired it up and it ran like poo (beginning of this thread), so if anything it should at least fire up. All ports unused are blocked off, this has been confirmed numerous times. All used ports are on properly and not leaking, this is also confirmed.

The setup is really simple, there are no vacuum lines anywhere except the IM, one going to bov and one to MS. That's it.

1st thing I'm doing when I get home tonight is yank the rear cam sensor and poke/prod the stupid cam trigger ring with a screwdriver. oh boy am I actually HOPING it moves lol. cause that's literally it. that's all that's left to check
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:20 PM   #182
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Awaiting results!
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Old 02-17-2014, 08:35 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
The pulley itself (where the serpentine belts go) or the little sprocket where the timing belt goes, with the key thing?
The pulley itself. It's a vulcanized two piece unit that damps harmonic vibrations. The rubber separates and isn't really visible to the eye unless it's spinning on the crank nose or completely delaminated. With the engine turning over, you'll see a pronounced wobble.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:54 PM   #184
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The pulley itself. It's a vulcanized two piece unit that damps harmonic vibrations. The rubber separates and isn't really visible to the eye unless it's spinning on the crank nose or completely delaminated. With the engine turning over, you'll see a pronounced wobble.
It doesn't matter if the damper pulley has slipped as far as the timing goes. See below, he's checked the timing mark on the main timing belt pulley and verified #1 piston at TDC with the marks lined up:

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It's possible to look at something for so long you go snow blind. Sometimes you have to just forget all the assumptions and theories you've run through and go back to the beginning. I suggest you go back and systematically look at the key things an engine needs to run:
  • Air
  • Fuel
  • Compression
  • Spark

I would go in reverse order from what I've listed. Check your spark and spark timing. Put a timing light on it. It doesn't take any time and you can eliminate it as a cause if it checks out. If the cam trigger is the culprit, this should confirm it.

If spark timing checks out, do a compression check. If cam timing is the problem, it should show up in the compression. If compression is lower than expected, a leak down test will tell you if it's open exhaust valves or open intake valves.

If spark and compression are good, look at fuel delivery. Is there unburnt fuel in all the cylinders? How much? Is it flooding before it can start?

You get the idea. You obviously know what you're doing. You've just looked past something because you're chasing some of your theories and our guesses. Back to basics, man, and you'll soon have it figured out. We're all rooting for you.

Dave

Last edited by Blue_Heron; 02-17-2014 at 10:02 PM. Reason: Cause I can
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:44 PM   #185
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Dumb idea, Put a timing light on it with stock ECU...

This will tell you if stock ECU sees something good enough to at least throw spark and fuel.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:55 PM   #186
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I was REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY hoping one of the MS gurus could tell me what the composite logs is showing in terms of cam/crank triggers and if they're still showing intake cam advanced before I pull the freshly re-installed/RTV'd valve cover for the umpteenth time and waste yet more time ripping everything apart.
REALLLLLLLLLY needed you to put the MS on the known good car and take the composite log to compare to the non-running car.

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1st thing I'm doing when I get home tonight is yank the rear cam sensor and poke/prod the stupid cam trigger ring with a screwdriver. oh boy am I actually HOPING it moves lol. cause that's literally it. that's all that's left to check
I doubt it will move using ordinary means. The ring slipping *probably* has something to do with a combination of heat soak, oil bath, and resonance.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:57 PM   #187
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Sorry man I'd love to have done that, but that is not my car. I'm willing to do anything within my means, but I don't have 2 miata's that are mine, just this one.

I had no idea this was such a rare issue.

Should I make a thread and try to find someone with a composite log of an 01 with ms3x?
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:00 AM   #188
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Would a log by a different VVT Miata work? I will happily start my car and log it for you Ben/Vlad. Just say the word.

EDIT: just read Vlad's last post. Putting back on clothes and heading to the garage.
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:07 AM   #189
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DUDE!!

you are awesome

props given
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:17 AM   #190
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Here you go.

BTW... 666 Posts. F' yeah.

Attached Thumbnails
Fired up the new setup/engine, weird issue-screen-shot-2014-02-17-10.19.16-pm.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: csv tooth_2014-02-17_22.10.35.csv (79.4 KB, 36 views)
File Type: csv trigger_2014-02-17_22.10.02.csv (56.5 KB, 46 views)
File Type: csv comp_2014-02-17_22.11.11.csv (64.5 KB, 40 views)
File Type: msl 2014-02-17_22.12.02.msl (95.9 KB, 50 views)
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Old 02-18-2014, 12:46 AM   #191
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ok, before I even look at your logs, KINDA SORTA update:

I popped off the cam angle sensor and compared it to my original one: they are not the same, and the part numbers are not the same.

So I stuck on the one from my original engine.
Then I hooked up the MAF.
Then I tried to start it.

it still doesnt' start, but now its not flooding the cylinders. its actually relatively lean now after cranking for a while. 16-17AFR

so then I noticed that it popped a CEL

P010

My generic code reader little book says its "Camshaft angle circuit malfunction"

So we're getting somewhere, but still not there.

Ok I'll take a stab at the logs now, but really hoping smart guys like Ben and others can now tell me something more useful.

Its 9pm so can't spend much more time on it tonight, but I'll keep plugging away at it ASAP
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:03 AM   #192
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I thought you said you swapped them already. The one with the tri star on it are the ones that normally have problems. The one working one I have has no markings on it.

You're not going to be able to spin the trigger wheel by hand if it slipped. I dont know the mechanics of why it slips but it seems the more time you spend about stock redline the more likely it is to happen.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:13 AM   #193
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The trigger ring does not move at all. I tried to move it with screwdriver it won't budge. It does have a tiny dimple on one of the teeth, possibly from putting it down and the tooth may have made contact with the surface it was being put down on? I dunno.

And yes I swapped the sensors before with no luck. The one I swapped it with before was 100% known working good. Maybe the sensor isn't the issue, but at least there's some teensy weensy progress.

I hope.
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:21 AM   #194
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snipped a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Heron View Post
It doesn't matter if the damper pulley has slipped as far as the timing goes. See below, he's checked the timing mark on the main timing belt pulley and verified #1 piston at TDC with the marks lined upave
Sorry but yes it does. You have notches in the outer ring of the crank pulley which is how the crank position sensor gets it position reference from. If the out ring slips then the inner ring is still fastened to the crank nose and still in mechanical time but the ECU is seeing a different time from true mechanical time.
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Old 02-18-2014, 04:48 AM   #195
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Quote:
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snipped a bit.

Sorry but yes it does. You have notches in the outer ring of the crank pulley which is how the crank position sensor gets it position reference from. If the out ring slips then the inner ring is still fastened to the crank nose and still in mechanical time but the ECU is seeing a different time from true mechanical time.
The CKP trigger is a separate disc on the back of the crank pulley, it's located via the 4 M6 bolts which bolt into the lower cam belt gear, (and also hold the crank pulley on).

It can't slip.
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Old 02-18-2014, 06:19 AM   #196
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The CKP trigger is a separate disc on the back of the crank pulley, it's located via the 4 M6 bolts which bolt into the lower cam belt gear, (and also hold the crank pulley on).

It can't slip.
But you can mount it the wrong way round aka flip it?!
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:15 AM   #197
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But you can mount it the wrong way round aka flip it?!
You can, but it won't fit right. There's an offset in the center of the trigger wheel that spaces it off the back of the pulley slightly. If you put it on backwards it will leave a space between the mounting surfaces of the wheel and pulley at the center.
Dave
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:08 AM   #198
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Yep, I double checked that at least 3 times actually.

There is no way you can mount the trigger wheel backwards unless you intentionally ignore the gap that it will leave between it and the crank pulley. It bolts directly onto the plate that holds the crank timing sprocket, it is physically impossible for it to slip.

I wish that was my problem lol. I'd have been done with this a long time ago.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:09 AM   #199
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But 2 ways to plug in the electrical connectors to them. Or at least with my harness since I cranked my engine for 10 minutes last night with some really loud backfires and almost catching before I swapped the connectors and it started on the first crank.
Are you sure about this? If you plug the #2 coil pack connector into the #4 coil pack, the #4 connector wont reach the #2.

NVM I didn't read that you actually did this to yourself.
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Old 02-18-2014, 10:18 AM   #200
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he's got a hacked up/spliced wiring harness.
those of us with intact engine harnesses will not be able to mix or confuse the connections


*edit:
EO2k is sending me a vvt intake cam from his spare head to try out, more updates as soon as it arrives.

Last edited by 18psi; 02-18-2014 at 10:29 AM.
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