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Old 02-11-2014, 12:00 PM   #81
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I wonder where the missing chunks went. Where does the oil go after leaving the actuator? Into the head? Is there a filter or screen that might have recovered them?
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:03 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by sharkythesharkdogg View Post
So, perhaps that little puck was installed incorrectly and destroyed itself, explaining why it managed to run correctly the first few short start up sessions. The little puck was destroying itself and therefore the actuator slowly lost the ability to hold itself in the correct position?

I guess I'm trying to see what exactly that little puck was doing (helping guide oil pressure across those three chambers?), and if it could have been installed backwards, causing it to fail?
I think it sits on top of the piston and keeps the VVT locked for startup. you can see the little oil channel that would allow oil to move it out of the way.

The more I look at the actuator, this might be why it wont start. The cam immediately unlocks and starts to advance once it sees any oil pressure.

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I wonder where the missing chunks went. Where does the oil go after leaving the actuator? Into the head? Is there a filter or screen that might have recovered them?
I thought they went to the first cam bearing after exiting the VVT, I could be wrong though
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:04 PM   #83
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So you never took the actuator apart? I wonder if the puck disintegrated from age somehow. Weird.

Those metallic chunks are still concerning to me too.

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I think it sits on top of the piston and keeps the VVT locked for startup. you can see the little oil channel that would allow oil to move it out of the way.
So then it's possible that the actuator couldn't lock for start up with out that puck, explaining the problem. Good info. So would being installed incorrectly keep oil pressure from moving it or damaging it, is the next question.

Since Vlad says he never took the actuator apart, it still doesn't explain why the thing failed unless it just cracked from sitting.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:22 PM   #84
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While I suppose it is possible, there is not a lot of room for the puck to get eaten by the actuator. Vlad, are you sure it is not on your garage floor?
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:29 PM   #85
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I am positive. You should have seen how carefully we took apart the cam gear yesterday. My dad was holding that sucker down in his lap on top of a towel, while I carefully took out the 4 bolts. Literally nothing fell out or sprung out or fell or anything. It was like a surgery in my garage lol. I was extra careful because of all the horror stories of people accidentally taking apart the vvt gear and losing crap or having it fall out.

The only thing I can think of is those pieces are it all crumbled up. There's no way they could have made it into the gear through the tiny channels
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:07 PM   #86
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swapped over:

cam gear
valve cover
all vvt stuff basically

from a good running car


car still won't start.

I'm done. Seriously considering parting this thing out. Going to take a break for a day and not think about it. after that I'm gonna make another attempt at getting it started. if not, there is about to be a TON of awesome parts in the classifieds soon

I don't care anymore
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:23 PM   #87
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Is anyone near you that could swing by and give you a fresh set of eyes and maybe some motivation?

Don't part-out...

So, to save me the time of reading your build thread, what exactly did you do to this engine? It was a swap from a running wrecked car and what then? Rebuild? What was taken off the engine if anything?
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Old 02-12-2014, 12:31 AM   #88
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Trying to think outside the box a little.

Is it possible that with the intake cam jumping around because of wonky oil pressure/actuator shenanigans that it caused the belt to jump, but remain in time across the two cam gears.

Basically, when you've been verifying timing, have you been verifying the crank as well, or just to two cams?

EDIT: Going back over your pictures it looks like you had the front completely exposed when you were working on all this, so I think I answered my own question.
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Old 02-12-2014, 06:16 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I don't care anymore
As a therapy thing, could you check the valve lash?
There must be something other than the VVT that is wrong when a stuff from a working car misbehaves (even when disconnected?).
I don't remember if you have SUBs or stock, but lash caps can be misplaced.

Leakdown, compression?
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Old 02-12-2014, 08:01 AM   #90
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First things first - let's assume for a moment that VVT, timing, etc are perfect. When you try and start what happens? You say it won't start, but does it try and fire or just spin? What are the logs seeing? Are you indicating RPM in megasquirt or your logs? What type of fuel do you have? Is it possible that you previously flooded the engine? Can anyone tell us what the expected kpa value is while cranking to compare with yours? Does this value change when you put the accelerator pedal to the floor?

I know that in the number of times that I did the install I made so many mistakes and in the end was in your situation when I realized that the idle control valve wasn't connected. Once I connected that it fired right up. Double check all your connections and make sure everything is plugged in.

You have experienced compounding errors. You fixed one, move on to locate the next.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:30 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
car still won't start.

I'm done. Seriously considering parting this thing out. Going to take a break for a day and not think about it. after that I'm gonna make another attempt at getting it started. if not, there is about to be a TON of awesome parts in the classifieds soon

I don't care anymore

Been there, its not worth parting out.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:17 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
Is anyone near you that could swing by and give you a fresh set of eyes and maybe some motivation?

Don't part-out...

So, to save me the time of reading your build thread, what exactly did you do to this engine? It was a swap from a running wrecked car and what then? Rebuild? What was taken off the engine if anything?
Not exactly. My dad looked it over and couldn't find a thing.

I took my time putting this thing together, it was done so carefully and thoroughly that I don't even know where else to look for faults. Maybe the megasquirt is acting up or not working right? I dunno. I know that now everything should be A-OK with the engine.

Its a 2001 vvt long block from a donor car. I tore it down, m-tuned rods, hone, new rings, ALL new gaskets/seals/bushings/you name it. Resurfaced head, lapped valves, set valve lash, ARP head studs, basically a beefed up OEM engine that can handle some serious torque.

The worst part is that it started just a few days ago. It started like crap, and ran like crap, but it actually started, and actually ran.

Now, when it supposed to be all better, it doesn't start at all anymore. Keeps flooding like crazy.

I'm going to start diagnosing the megasquirt/injectors possibly. I can't think of a thing on the engine remaining that's not completely fine at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkythesharkdogg View Post
Trying to think outside the box a little.

Is it possible that with the intake cam jumping around because of wonky oil pressure/actuator shenanigans that it caused the belt to jump, but remain in time across the two cam gears.

Basically, when you've been verifying timing, have you been verifying the crank as well, or just to two cams?

EDIT: Going back over your pictures it looks like you had the front completely exposed when you were working on all this, so I think I answered my own question.
Yeah, timing is verified every time I touch the belt. So each and every time I try to start it timing is dead on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NiklasFalk View Post
As a therapy thing, could you check the valve lash?
There must be something other than the VVT that is wrong when a stuff from a working car misbehaves (even when disconnected?).
I don't remember if you have SUBs or stock, but lash caps can be misplaced.

Leakdown, compression?
I did, valve lash is fine. I guess it won't hurt to check yet again, but I actually checked it just the other day, just to make sure.

No comp/leakdown yet. Its a new engine. But I guess it won't hurt. Maybe I damaged something trying to start it when its flooding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
First things first - let's assume for a moment that VVT, timing, etc are perfect. When you try and start what happens? You say it won't start, but does it try and fire or just spin? What are the logs seeing? Are you indicating RPM in megasquirt or your logs? What type of fuel do you have? Is it possible that you previously flooded the engine? Can anyone tell us what the expected kpa value is while cranking to compare with yours? Does this value change when you put the accelerator pedal to the floor?

I know that in the number of times that I did the install I made so many mistakes and in the end was in your situation when I realized that the idle control valve wasn't connected. Once I connected that it fired right up. Double check all your connections and make sure everything is plugged in.

You have experienced compounding errors. You fixed one, move on to locate the next.
It spins forever. After a LONG time it sounds like it almost catches, but just keeps spinning and "almost catching" for ever. Every now and then I hear a backfire in the intake manifold, and some popping. But then it just keeps spinning, and almost catching, and just will not catch.

The whole time it reads uber rich, no matter what. Its flooding for sure. I go WOT to clear it, and that doesn't help ever. 9-10AFR's the whole time.

I checked cam sensor. I checked crank sensor. Both perfect.

Yes I flooded the engine repeatedly because of what its doing. Yes tps, iacv, etc everything is connected and working. I dunno what kpa its supposed to be when cranking, but Rev looked at the logs I posted and said its way too high. It should be drawing more vacuum, and its barely drawing any.

I guess I'll do another composite log and regular log.

As for RIGHT now I'm really starting to think its a megasquirt and/or injector thing.
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Been there, its not worth parting out.
I know man, I'm just so frustrated. Its one thing if I cut corners somewhere or half assed something and it didn't work. But I took more time putting this thing together than every other car I've worked on, and it still won't friggen run.

I think I'm going to try this next:

swap in stock injectors and ecu and try to fire it up like that. it should 100% prove whether the ms and id1k's are to blame for this.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:05 AM   #93
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is it possible that after you got the vvt actuator figured out, the trigger wheel got put on backwards?
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:07 AM   #94
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Trigger wheel? that's on the crank, and I never took it off. So nope. I'll take a look at it today just in case though.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:09 AM   #95
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I dont think the crank trigger wheel can be put on backwards.

If you disconnect the vvt noid and crank the car what does the vvt position (or error) read in MS?
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:11 AM   #96
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With all this fuel, have you pulled and inspected the plugs?
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:14 AM   #97
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It can be put on backwards. Car will not run. Owned the **** out of me the first time I did a timing belt and couldnt figure out what I did wrong. Doesnt sound like its his problem though. still worth eliminating.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:22 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I dont think the crank trigger wheel can be put on backwards.

If you disconnect the vvt noid and crank the car what does the vvt position (or error) read in MS?
I think so. I'll have to double check, tried so many combinations of things I'm starting to forget.

I have to say though: even with this known good VVT setup on the car the MS is still showing "VVT1 Error"

So that makes no sense at all
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkythesharkdogg View Post
With all this fuel, have you pulled and inspected the plugs?
Yes. They were fouled up. I cleaned them and put them back in. I will obviously replace them but don't want to until the car actually starts and runs ok.

Stupid question: with fouled plugs is it possible that they're so fouled that they won't even produce enough spark to start?
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It can be put on backwards. Car will not run. Owned the **** out of me the first time I did a timing belt and couldnt figure out what I did wrong. Doesnt sound like its his problem though. still worth eliminating.
I will definitely check it, but like I said just the other day it started up and ran, despite very rough and terrible, but still started and ran.

The only thing between then and now that I touched is the vvt stuff, and the parts on there now are from a 100% running engine that was started and ran before I yanked them off it yesterday.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:25 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
I think so. I'll have to double check, tried so many combinations of things I'm starting to forget.

I have to say though: even with this known good VVT setup on the car the MS is still showing "VVT1 Error"

So that makes no sense at all
Check tonight, this is beginning to sound like the trigger angle is off or the cam sensor **** the bed. Especially with the vvt1 error code with a known good vvt system.
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Old 02-12-2014, 11:32 AM   #100
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I replaced the cam angle sensor as well with a known good one. But yeah whatever I'll try anything and everything at this point
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