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Old 02-15-2014, 10:18 PM   #141
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Your datalog is saying that at 0% duty cycle and target of 0 of advance your cam is advanced.

Still sounds like the cam trigger ring slipped, a rare but known problem.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:36 PM   #142
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For the love of everything holy, can you please please please please explain to me how I get it back in the correct position?

it looks like its just pressed onto the cam. what position is it supposed to be?

Any links to threads or anything? I'm searching for a description of this issue, and coming up with nothing.
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:43 PM   #143
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I just spent the whole day re-assembling everything, swapping to stock injectors, ecu, and draining/refilling e85 to pumpg 91.

The car still doesn't start, even on stock ecu.

This trigger ring crap is honestly going to be my last attempt to figuring this crap out. Otherwise engine/setup is coming out in a week
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Old 02-15-2014, 10:51 PM   #144
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Yeah, I'm trying to find pics of the cam trigger ring myself...

Found some interesting discussion about the possibility of the cam trigger slipping. First time ever hearing about this. Didn't even know it was a thing.

BPZ3 1.8 VVT discussion - Forced Induction & N/A Power Mods - MX5Nutz Forum

Quote:
What the problem stems from is the poor design. The trigger for the cam is a press fit on the back of the camshaft. It is permanently in oil and getting heated. Over time the oil works its way under the trigger and makes it loose. It then moves and gives the wrong cam timing back to the ecu. The car stops working. There are no alignment marks or info from mazda to refit this. The trigger is not sold seperately and even if you could do it, the fix will fail as the cam which creates the interference fit will be worn by that time from the movement of the trigger.
See post by skuzzle

Last edited by Chiburbian; 02-15-2014 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:22 PM   #145
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IMO, you swapped all components except the one that is most likely to have the problem -- the intake cam. Sounds like you have 2, so could simply eyeball the trigger ring vs cam lobe on each and look for a discrepancy. A fancier method would be to use your log cam and crank mode on the MS3 and compare composite logs.

If you find that the non-running engine had the ring slip, the repair procedure is:
  • Disconnect battery negative
  • Replace intake cam
Is there a way to reset the ring on your used/existing cam? I dunno, it would need to be reset pretty precisely though, and you'd need to find a way to pin it in place. I'm not going to condone trying to fix it publicly when a new cam isn't all that expensive.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:57 AM   #146
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LOGS!! Attached

Please take a look and tell me what you think.

My mind is about to explode. I have pulled off the valve cover like 5 times now. I have pulled the cam gears like 4 times now. I have done the timing belt at least 5 times now. I have swapped the plugs, I have swapped injectors, I went back to pump gas, I went back to stock ecu.

NOTHING!!

So literally the only thing left is this stupid cam trigger ring apparently.

BUT

My bro is selling the donor long block on monday. So I can't borrow another one, unless he lets me open up yet another of his long blocks, or I guess I might have to open up my other engine, which I don't want to do.

I'm just getting sick of this crap. I've done my fair share of miata BP builds and rebuilds, and its not like I'm completely clueless. I have quintuple checked every single stupid bolt on this engine, everything is flawless.

So yeah, before I friggen open it up yet again, someone please look over these logs and confirm whether my cram trigger ring really is showing my cam advanced.

I am pulling my hair out right now
Attached Files
File Type: csv composite 1.csv (10.1 KB, 35 views)
File Type: msl start log 1.msl (157.7 KB, 44 views)
File Type: msl start log 2.msl (67.4 KB, 29 views)
File Type: csv composite 2.csv (10.3 KB, 25 views)
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Old 02-16-2014, 02:10 AM   #147
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Looks like a new intake cam is 250-300 or so, but if I buy one and its not the problem, I think I'm going to /self
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:42 AM   #148
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Zero a working engine and remove the cam sensor, compare the wing position with yours.
Much less disasemblly, you are looking for big differences.
OK, you will either see 0 or 360, but from the pictures your wing is placed identical to mine (comparing pictures).
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:45 PM   #149
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Seriously, there isnt a cam trigger angel in the MS that you can change? It should be in the trigger setup stuff. Change it.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:44 PM   #150
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I've got a 6D head sitting on a shelf in the garage. Its not doing anything on my shelf and you are welcome to borrow it. Say the word and I'll pull it, stick it in a shipping tube and send it on its way to Sacratomato.

Of course, don't you have the engine that originally came in this car sitting in your garage?
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:16 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Seriously, there isnt a cam trigger angel in the MS that you can change? It should be in the trigger setup stuff. Change it.
I was thinking about this as well, but I think that you would have to modify the "Decoder" file. It would require a bit of trial and error to say the least.

Vlad, when you have the valve cover off next time, put engine at TDC and take pics of the valvetrain as clearly as you can. Also, take pictures of the cam trigger as best you can. I see pics of the valvetrain and I see pics of the engine at TDC, but I don't see any that show what the valvetrain looks like at TDC.

Also, to edit this post again... After looking at a number of posts of NB timing belt changes at TDC, it does seem that your cam trigger is shifted by 15-30 degrees. It could be just my mind playing tricks on me though.

Last edited by Chiburbian; 02-17-2014 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:17 AM   #152
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DELETE ME
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:10 AM   #153
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Will do.
Between comparing angles and (hopefully) someone telling me what the composite logs are showing (I don't know how to interpret composite logs) I am hoping to figure this out.

I don't think cam angle offset is adjustable in MS. But I'll ask the MS guru's to chime in on that.

Gordon,
If you are willing to do that, it would be awesome and of course I'll pay shipping. Let me poke around some more 1st before I ask anyone for anything though.
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Old 02-17-2014, 03:08 AM   #154
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This is just a shot in the dark since I don't have a VVT motor but is your crank pulley OK? I found a friends 2000 was having the same start up problem you are having. I found that his crank pulley started to separate. This sent the ECU 2 different TDC signals, even though the timing belt was perfectly lined up. Good luck.
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Old 02-17-2014, 12:33 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Gordon,
If you are willing to do that, it would be awesome and of course I'll pay shipping. Let me poke around some more 1st before I ask anyone for anything though.
No worries, you know how to get a hold of me

Edit: I re-read my post... just to clarify, I'm happy to pull the cam and mail it off

Last edited by EO2K; 02-17-2014 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:13 PM   #156
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Dear Vlad: parting this thing out would be an epic failure on a similar proportion to leatherfaces "rod knock" partout. You can figure this out. I honestly don't understand all the in and outs of the VVT setup, but that must be the culprit as everything else is spot on.

I honestly wish I had more to offer, other than moral support.. I say try a known good cam gear and go from there.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:32 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twothirdsCobra View Post
This is just a shot in the dark since I don't have a VVT motor but is your crank pulley OK? I found a friends 2000 was having the same start up problem you are having. I found that his crank pulley started to separate. This sent the ECU 2 different TDC signals, even though the timing belt was perfectly lined up. Good luck.
The pulley itself (where the serpentine belts go) or the little sprocket where the timing belt goes, with the key thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
No worries, you know how to get a hold of me

Edit: I re-read my post... just to clarify, I'm happy to pull the cam and mail it off
Thanks, will do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Dear Vlad: parting this thing out would be an epic failure on a similar proportion to leatherfaces "rod knock" partout. You can figure this out. I honestly don't understand all the in and outs of the VVT setup, but that must be the culprit as everything else is spot on.

I honestly wish I had more to offer, other than moral support.. I say try a known good cam gear and go from there.
See, but its not: he heard a sound and parted the car out.

I'm on my 5th time basically tearing the thing down to the bare bones, and have thus far checked every single thing that these guys suggested, as well as checked and tested like 100 of my own theories and guesses on why its not working.

It is what it is, I'm going to try literally everything under the sun including swapping the cam if I have to.
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Old 02-17-2014, 02:52 PM   #158
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I have a dream.... That one day I will open this thread and see the words "It Runs"!!!
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Old 02-17-2014, 03:01 PM   #159
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Me too
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Old 02-17-2014, 03:04 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
The pulley itself (where the serpentine belts go) or the little sprocket where the timing belt goes, with the key thing?
I think he's suggesting in the pulley itself. The layer of rubber in the damper separated, allowing the inside to rotate and versus the outside. (I think is what he's getting at.)

I see why you're asking though. Unless I'm mistaken about the +01's, they use the same 4 tooth timing gear as as the earlier cars, and it's a separate plate from the pulley. So I'm not following how the pulley would have thrown off the timing.

Is it made into the pulley?

/shrug
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