Flyin' Miata Internals... worth the cost?
 

Hey y'all!

So I'm getting ready to piece together my motor build as I'm ditching the wimpy MSM system for a BW system from Fab9. Of course, like anyone else I only want to put the best parts in my car, and if that means waiting to save up the cash, I will.

Naturally, I checked out one of our most trusted vendors, Flyin' Miata.... but I have a really hard time justifying $796 for weisco pistons and $1230 for carillo H beam rods. I'll include the links below

https://www.flyinmiata.com/wiseco-1-...o-pistons.html

https://www.flyinmiata.com/carrillo-h-beam-rods.html

So my question is, is it worth it? My engine builder can build the entire bottom end parts+ labor for not much more. Also when I spoke to him about these parts he said that the only thing special about the pistons are the offset wrist pins, which quiet down the noise, and the coatings which he can do himself in the shop. Regarding the rods he told me that back in the day Carillos were worth the money hands down, but ever since they were bought out by CP they are not that much better then comparable Manleys or Eagles

I wanted to get a second opinion here, do any of you have any experience or thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Chris

You're buying the turbo kit from Fab9. Talk to Bryan and I bet he'd get you a nice package deal on the internals + turbo setup.

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Wisecos ( which can be bought way cheaper than that ) and any forged rods will be fine. You should be under $1k for pistons and rods.

To be fair though, FM wisecos are different from "normal" wisecos and you can't get FM wiseco specs unless you magically figure out all the details and custom order said specs from Wiseco.

This. FM has spent a lot of money and engineering effort into coming up with a very nice piston. I don't know if a side-by-side has ever been done between the standard Wiseco and FM's version though. A call to FM would probably explain the differences.

Just doing my built motor now . I've sprung for the FM wiescos but went with ETD rods that I've been sitting on for couple of years. Fred B

I called them and asked why pay twice for theirs vs off the shelf Weiscos. They explained. I bought their version. They are a better, stronger piston for a miata BP Engine. Less noise, stronger, less oil consumption compared to regular weiscos. I think they are heavier too.

A good friend of mine has one of the first versions of the FM Weisco and a version made a few years later and it was cool to see how much things had changed in a short time. I'd be curious was a current piston looks like compared to the first.

Did they explain how they have all these properties over a regular Miata spec'd Wiseco? I'm a little skeptical but always willing to learn.

Yes, to make it better. Quieter, stronger, less oil consumption.

I think he means how did they achieve those properties.

OK Pat. that's marketing lingo. this is MT.net.

Exact measurements if possible, but at LEAST what did they change... Wider spaced rings? thicker ringlands? Different tolerances? thicker crown?

HOW did they get that stuff?

Oh... Well to be honest, he probably did on some of it. I don't remember his exact words. He told me a few things they did, said there were 20 or so differences in the design between off the shelf vs FM Weiscos, and when he got done explaining why there pistons were better, I was sold. I don't think he was extremely specific, but he said enough that I was convinced their pistons are better than the regular off-the-shelf ones, and that's what I wanted to know. Basically am I getting a better part, or just paying more because I'm buying it from FM instead of someone else.

I'm sure the 400 dollar ones are nice though, and I'd choose them over the 400 dollar, less-strong (but potentially quieter) supertechs. But if you can swing it, I'd recommend the FM pistons.

But I also bought the 1,200 dollar H-beams too, because they are also "better" than the 250 dollar ebay rods I was previously running.

But I can't say that without saying this: I gave my ebay rods PURE HELL, 28 PSI, choked flow on a GT3271, 8,800 RPMs 200+ times, and they never missed a beat. I used them in 3 different motors too, broke pistons TWICE and the rods were fine....

You should call and ask, I'm not gonna make shit up, I don't remember. He listed a bunch of differences though.

One thing I do remember that I know is right is that these pistons are coated, and that helps keep them alive in the event of detonation. I can also explain WHY this helps if anyone wants to know, but it does help.

Also I remember him saying the pistons were tapered a certain way to eliminate (not reduce, he said eliminate) cold slap on startup. I then asked him, will they slap at all when cold and he said no. And so far, they don't, they are silent at .0035 thousands clearance.

Another difference is their pistons require deleting the oil squirters, and he said that made them stronger too. This was concerning to me, I thought it would be better to keep them. He said they could have them made to keep the squirters (using their old design) but that the pistons would not be as strong.

More research shows that almost all OEMs that use squirters use them on cast pistons, and almost all OEMs that use forged pistons do NOT use oil squirters.

Aluminum has a temp where it turns from strong stuff to play-doh. The alloy Weisco uses is ~20% stronger than a supertech alloy, but at certain temps (like really hot), the supertech alloy turns to play-doh while the Weisco alloy does not. Another reason I went with these pistons, and you can find pics of melted supertechs in miata motors with a search.

Ask FM if you'd like , but don't be surprised if they won't go into specifics . I believe it's called proprietary information.

I wouldn't buy something from company A if they said "Our stuff us better, that's all I can tell you."

Good thing they do tell us as FM does explain a few things regarding their pistons. So it's not so much secret as it is FM specific by request to Wiseco. To get a piston maker to do a one off for an individual will cost you more than a motor, and or they will say we have a deal with X company just buy those.
I can see why they cost more I'm just not looking for those extras. I can tell you that the FM & Regular Wiseco's are the same 2618 alloy, have the ArmorGlide™ skirt coating and both are elliptical. The rest I believe are that the FM's can handle a +1 VVT valve setup, top coated, different pin bore placement, dome shape and more...
For me just wanting 300WHP on a DD I'm happy with my standard Wiseco's. Seeing as Pat is going for 30psi on a high revver pushing the limit those FM's will be great for him.
My build has a smaller budget and goals.
BTW Pat glad to hear the ebay rods survived what they did, that's what I have in my short block right now.
I've used Wiseco in 2 and 4 stroke motocross bikes so I like their stuff, I've also paid FM for a stronger than normal Throwout bearing so I when the price and performance cross my personal line I make purchases on upgraded items from many of the venders here.

Yeah part of the reason I spent the $$$$ on rods and pistons on this motor is that in the past, I always ended up breaking a (stock) piston. One motor ran at 28 PSI for 2 years, but broke a piston at 31, the other broke a piston at only 20 PSI, though the tuning was aggressive. So this time, I wanted to upgrade and basically build a bomb-proof bottom end.

I have bent rods before (stock rods) and broken pistons (stock pistons) twice. Never had a problem from the oil pump. Bearings in the bottom end are either perfect or only showing a little wear, and I discovered using the wrong oil was wearing out my bearings.

Blown a HG twice, once from nitrous, once from detonation at 20 PSI and then later-discovered the bolts were not torqued correctly when installed due to a faulty torque-wrench.

So when I added it up, I figured I was going to upgrade the rods and pistons at a minimum in the bottom end. So I went with the best I could buy for those this time as I want this motor to be more-reliable than my previous engines.

And I decided to buy the ARP main studs too, though I have no evidence to support them being needed. My theory here was MAYBE they will help keep the crankshaft from flexing as much, which will improve reliability. No proof though, this may have been a waste.

I put ARP head studs so I could raise the clamping force on the head since I've blown a HG twice now (both times my fault though). This should help keep the head sealed, and the ARP lube improves clamping force evenness a lot. So there is a benefit to this.

I also went with an ATI damper since it's designed to dampen harmonics at higher-than-stock RPMs and I rev my motors higher than stock. This part works, I did a before/after and I can 1000% feel a difference in engine smoothness. Nice part.

If this motor were to break, I'd probably build a new motor with FM weisco's, and either the high end rods or some ebay rods if I want to save money, and use an ATI damper and that's it for the bottom end. That's about as cheap as I know you could build a bomb-proof bottom end.

nahh, set of 4 custom pistons from 2611 from JE will run you about $600. Everyone else wants you to buy like 50 though.

I stand corrected. That's reasonable custom piston cost if you are say doing a custom stroker or bore.

I'm ARP / Damper / Oil Pump etc invested as well. I'd like to "set it and forget it" for a long time once she is built.

For everyone claiming these are quiet, quieter, less noise - or anything implying these aren't loud as fuck - can you please produce a video of cold start?

Because mine sounds like a tractor ready to plow.

Isnt that just normal for a BP? :noob:

That's because that's what motors making real power sound like.


I will say that my JEs in the 95 were dead fucking quiet. Spook-ily so.

I'll do it in the next few days. You're going to hear a lot of blower wine, nothing I can do about that, but you won't hear piston slap.

Every piston manufacture has options over there stock line of pistons. FM includes some of these options. Wiesco makes a piston based off of a stock piston and computer modeling. FM takes that and refines it through real world testing and calls it there own. Your getting a custom weisco piston rebranded as FM.

That being said, my off the shelf ones held 460whp just fine

I went back and forth with the same dilemma. I just couldn't justify the extra cost. I also noticed when I was looking Wiesco off the shelf pistons didn't have reliefs in the skirts for oil squirters. I don't believe super tech had notches either. I was also told by one machine shop that I should delete the squirters. I came to the conclusion i wanted to keep mine. After talking with a few people with built motors I decided on JE. I haven't found anything bad about Je's and the skirts are notched for squirters.

Does any happen to know the dome size (cc) on the turbo FM Wisecos and intended C/R? If it's listed I missed it.

The radial clearance for oversize valves seems to be taken into account on the FM Pistons where it is VERY tight on the OTS Wisecos using +1mm valves on a BP6D head.

All OTS Supertech Miata pistons are notched for squirters.

Here you go. Blower wine and exhaust are loud, but I have never heard piston slap. Granted it's not winter right now so can't say for sure but in summer it's silent.

Unrelated question:

Why does your oil pressure gauge show pressure before engine start?

Because I have oil pressure before engine start.

Because 2qt accusump.

I didn't realize that was a thing, although I'd thought it would be a good idea to have an electric oil pump to build pressure before engine start. This looks like a simpler way to accomplish the same thing. Very cool.

Yeah it's nice. Simple and effective. It's mainly there to supply the engine with oil in case the oil pump sucks air for any reason. Pre-oiling is also a feature which is nice.