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Forged piston choices for a daily driven BP (1.8) swapped 90
Sorry guys, I've done research for my 1.6 and pretty much was settled on what I wanted, but then I came across a decent deal on my 94 parts car really just for the motor and brakes...so I want to continue my 'mild build' on this motor and swap it in.
Since I already have the forged rods from the group buy Ben put on a while ago and should have the billet oil pump gears from the group buy sometime before I die... I'm really just looking to do piston, rods, oil pump gears, full seals etc, and put the motor in the car and swap in a 99 head at a later date. There are a TON more options in parts for the 1.8 and than the 1.6...I would like to be able to make 300 all said on done safely...but I'd prolly just be tossing the greddy kit I have laying around from my 1.6 motor to the 1.8 when I swapped it so it wont see that much power immediately...but it seems like it will do OK for a while. 9.0:1 seems to be the preferred CR...but what brands are suggested? And where can I get a decent piston/ring set from (vendor wise)? PISTONS: FM Wiseco $563 9.0:1 1mm overbore (= "???) Normal Wiseco: $500-525ish? 8.6:1 .020" .040" .060" over (Not sure on best price vendor...seems high) JE $550??-ish w/ rings and wrist pins 9.0:1 .020" .040" .060" over (same here...expensive as nuts...) Supertech from belfab: $450 w/ rings... 8.6:1 not sure of sizing...shit still confuses me. What else, where can I find them? What do you suggest Also, on the 1.8 how far of an overbore is considered safe? (haven't searched sorry!) I know the motor has more room, but there are a ton of options. I'm trying to get out cheap as possible but reliability/saftey is KEY. I'll pretty much have to have everything sent out...I've never done any motor work, nor do I know if I would trust myself to do so. (the good news is I can finally boost my 1.6 up as soon as I can have time to install everything in my buddies garage once his rock crawler is out! Hooray for not being hustler...) |
Should I just ask where the cheapest place to get pistons is? The Noobs get more help/shit/trash talking than my overly confusing threads.
lol. :D |
Give Top Speed a call. Theyre right here in NC and can get Wisecos and a few others I believe. 252-321-6356.
Theyre having a dyno day/open house Oct 11th, for any of you miata owners close by. Ill be there, but my miata is still in the garage and not currently running.:bang: |
Most important thing is cold start with forged pistons. I'll be using FM Weiscos (so long as I can get them in a 9.5:1 configuration).
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Outside of miatas, I've heard several things about different forged pistons. In general, people say the Wiseco's take forever to break in, and if you don't break them in you can crack them. But, if you break them in right, then they're indestructable.
On the other hand, JE's break in quick and work great, but they aren't as strong as the Wisecos, though still really strong. But that's just what I've heard from different racers over the years. If I buy pistons, I'll buy Wiseco. And sav, why 9.5? Isn't 9:1 plenty? If I buy pistons, they will be 8:1, not 9:1, and damn sure not 9.5:1. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 309904)
And sav, why 9.5? Isn't 9:1 plenty? If I buy pistons, they will be 8:1, not 9:1, and damn sure not 9.5:1.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 309904)
Outside of miatas, I've heard several things about different forged pistons. In general, people say the Wiseco's take forever to break in, and if you don't break them in you can crack them. But, if you break them in right, then they're indestructable.
On the other hand, JE's break in quick and work great, but they aren't as strong as the Wisecos, though still really strong. But that's just what I've heard from different racers over the years. If I buy pistons, I'll buy Wiseco. And sav, why 9.5? Isn't 9:1 plenty? If I buy pistons, they will be 8:1, not 9:1, and damn sure not 9.5:1. why would you ever go lower than the stock CR unless youre running like 35 PSI?? Have you researched static and dynamic CRs? 9:1 is plenty low for any boost youre ever going to realistically run on a miata on the street. 8:1 is going to lower the crank HP of the engine, lower the EGTs and lower the EGVs. Overall is going to be much less efficient. Ideally you would want to RAISE your CR, problem is, not many people know jack #### about tuning and cant tune an 10 or 11:1 turbo car. The key is tuning, tuning, tuning. You dont need to lower your CR, you DO need to run a stand alone ECU and get the car properly tuned. I guarantee half the turbo miatas out there arent making the power they should because their engine management is all out of wack. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 309903)
Most important thing is cold start with forged pistons. I'll be using FM Weiscos (so long as I can get them in a 9.5:1 configuration).
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Originally Posted by jc_rotor
(Post 309932)
why would you ever go lower than the stock CR unless youre running like 35 PSI??
Have you researched static and dynamic CRs? 9:1 is plenty low for any boost youre ever going to realistically run on a miata on the street. 8:1 is going to lower the crank HP of the engine, lower the EGTs and lower the EGVs. Overall is going to be much less efficient. Ideally you would want to RAISE your CR, problem is, not many people know jack #### about tuning and cant tune an 10 or 11:1 turbo car. The key is tuning, tuning, tuning. You dont need to lower your CR, you DO need to run a stand alone ECU and get the car properly tuned. I guarantee half the turbo miatas out there arent making the power they should because their engine management is all out of wack. I said I want lower compression because I will be running a lot of boost. Not 35, but probably 20 with a GT3271, and all that on a stock motor. In part, I would lower compression for the safety threshold, although I would take a hit in efficiency for it. But for what I loose in efficiency that hurts power I'll add back with more boost, which is less likely to cause detonation and break my stock motor. Anyway, I have 9.5:1 stock compression pistons. Buy me some forged 8:1 and I'll trade ya. :) |
lol no thanks, the stock pistons would last about 20 mins in my motor.
Just remember that if your planning on being at such high power numbers, youre going to want to pick up a new harmonic balancer or youre going to shatter your oil pump gear and the whole motor goes kaboom. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 310027)
I took statics last semester and I'm in dynamics right now. Though those are different definitions of static and dynamic than you are refering to.
I said I want lower compression because I will be running a lot of boost. Not 35, but probably 20 with a GT3271, and all that on a stock motor. In part, I would lower compression for the safety threshold, although I would take a hit in efficiency for it. But for what I loose in efficiency that hurts power I'll add back with more boost, which is less likely to cause detonation and break my stock motor. Anyway, I have 9.5:1 stock compression pistons. Buy me some forged 8:1 and I'll trade ya. :) |
Originally Posted by jc_rotor
(Post 310034)
lol no thanks, the stock pistons would last about 20 mins in my motor.
Just remember that if your planning on being at such high power numbers, youre going to want to pick up a new harmonic balancer or youre going to shatter your oil pump gear and the whole motor goes kaboom. Way I see it is the engine as a system is a two stage compressor. First stage is the turbo. I can utilize a heat exchanger after the turbo to remove heat from the charge. After that it goes into the engine and is further compressed before combustion takes place. I can't cool the charge between when the engine compresses it and combustion starts. (assuming no WI or any other fluid that will change phases to remove heat) I will choose lower static compression and offset it with higher boost. Not the most efficient setup, but it's safer. More air, more fuel, less heat. Less chance for detonation. Lower EGT's. Not ideal for spool, not ideal for making HP/PSI, but it's more reliable. |
Awesome debate. But the original question was where can I find these bitches at for the cheapest price and what size/compression ratio/rings are best suited from a reliable motor. Argue.
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Originally Posted by miatamania
(Post 309723)
Sorry guys, I've done research for my 1.6 and pretty much was settled on what I wanted, but then I came across a decent deal on my 94 parts car really just for the motor and brakes...so I want to continue my 'mild build' on this motor and swap it in.
Since I already have the forged rods from the group buy Ben put on a while ago and should have the billet oil pump gears from the group buy sometime before I die... I'm really just looking to do piston, rods, oil pump gears, full seals etc, and put the motor in the car and swap in a 99 head at a later date. There are a TON more options in parts for the 1.8 and than the 1.6...I would like to be able to make 300 all said on done safely...but I'd prolly just be tossing the greddy kit I have laying around from my 1.6 motor to the 1.8 when I swapped it so it wont see that much power immediately...but it seems like it will do OK for a while. 9.0:1 seems to be the preferred CR...but what brands are suggested? And where can I get a decent piston/ring set from (vendor wise)? PISTONS: FM Wiseco $563 9.0:1 1mm overbore (= "???) Normal Wiseco: $500-525ish? 8.6:1 .020" .040" .060" over (Not sure on best price vendor...seems high) JE $550??-ish w/ rings and wrist pins 9.0:1 .020" .040" .060" over (same here...expensive as nuts...) Supertech from belfab: $450 w/ rings... 8.6:1 not sure of sizing...shit still confuses me. What else, where can I find them? What do you suggest Also, on the 1.8 how far of an overbore is considered safe? (haven't searched sorry!) I know the motor has more room, but there are a ton of options. I'm trying to get out cheap as possible but reliability/saftey is KEY. I'll pretty much have to have everything sent out...I've never done any motor work, nor do I know if I would trust myself to do so. (the good news is I can finally boost my 1.6 up as soon as I can have time to install everything in my buddies garage once his rock crawler is out! Hooray for not being hustler...) Now if you will excuse us, back to the thread drift... :giggle: |
Or you can look into keeping the OEM pistons and having them tri-coated for heat and oil shedding. Most agree that's good enough to protect against anything your engine will ever see unless you're trying to build a monster.
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Originally Posted by RotorNutFD3S
(Post 310179)
Or you can look into keeping the OEM pistons and having them tri-coated for heat and oil shedding. Most agree that's good enough to protect against anything your engine will ever see unless you're trying to build a monster.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 310174)
Well to answer the OP, it depends which brand you want. I have no idea who's the cheapest though. Have to do your own research their. But I say buy Wisecos. Not from FM, as they are the most expensive
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 310210)
OP, pats and I argued about this like a month ago. Quick search should turn it up. I say get the FM Weiscos because they are different enough to make them better (unless Weisco made the FM design changes in their standard Miata piston). Lots of folks with FM Weiscos in built motors, nobody complains about cold knock or oil consumption.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 310184)
What would coating them do? Will that make the ring landings stronger or less likely to fail? I guess I'm not most as I don't agree that's good enough.
BUT WAIT, there's more!!! If you actually tune or have your car tuned right, you won't be detonating to cause ringland failure. Guess you forgot about that, and the fact that Miata piston failure is extremely rare. Or like you said, you're not in the most group. |
Originally Posted by RotorNutFD3S
(Post 310221)
Actually, the ceramic coating does make the ringlands less likely to fail as it directs heat back up where it belongs and away from the sides of the pistons.
BUT WAIT, there's more!!! If you actually tune or have your car tuned right, you won't be detonating to cause ringland failure. Guess you forgot about that, and the fact that Miata piston failure is extremely rare. Or like you said, you're not in the most group. |
Thanks guys, I may have to call them when I understand exactly what to ask.
As far as not needing forged because its all about detonation...but I'd like to have a bit of safety. |
Don't forget to consider piston side loads...Side loading won't kill a piston as fast as detonation, but it can definitely cause some damage. Boosted engines build fairly high cylinder pressure (dependent on many factors) during firing which will push the thrust side of the piston into the cylinder, generally creating compressive stresses in the struts and tensile stresses in the crown. Now couple that with thermal loading (expansion and stress), and you'll see another reason why forged pistons are a much better choice than cast.
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i love threads like this :) dont have to ask a thing and learn a lot.
its nice to know that a BP's stock pistons will do 250+whp, 275+whp with head work yeah? |
Originally Posted by flier129
(Post 310808)
i love threads like this :) dont have to ask a thing and learn a lot.
its nice to know that a BP's stock pistons will do 250+whp, 275+whp with head work yeah? |
However, I am right in understanding that if tuned safely, the forged parts are more resistant to blowing the fuck up that stock parts?
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Yeah, forged is more resistant, so to speak. If you have a little knock, the forged pistons will hold up to it better than a stock piston. But any knock is bad and will quickly break everything. I personally just run a stock head gasket with stock bolts and let that be the fuse. If i get severe detonation, I hope that the fuse (head gasket) blows before it breaks a ring landing or bends a rod, etc.
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makes sense...the stiffer it is, the more likely something major will break. So overall would you recommend pistons? I know some people like to just toss in stock pistons...but I just want to try to have a decent motor that I know can make power when I want it to.
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The most important thing is that it is tuned correctly. It doesnt matter what parts you have in there if the tuning is bad. I have said this before and will continue to. TUNING!!!!!!!!! Most important thing you can do when modifying your car and best place to spend the money. If youre going to spend money, buy a stand alone ECU and have it tuned. Will make the most of all your mods.
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Originally Posted by miatamania
(Post 311188)
makes sense...the stiffer it is, the more likely something major will break. So overall would you recommend pistons? I know some people like to just toss in stock pistons...but I just want to try to have a decent motor that I know can make power when I want it to.
Personally, I'll probably never build a motor because it's easier and cheaper to keep a spare and IMO, it's better. You could build a nice motor, have detonation, and break it. Then you'll be out a lot of money and down time while you build another. That's expensive and inconvenient. In my case, I bought a good used motor for 88 bucks, and if my stocker dies I'll swap them out and get another 88 dollar motor to keep as a backup. Personally, I feel better beating on it knowing I have a spare if it breaks. Some would feel better beating on their car knowing it's got 3K dollars worth of forged internals. I wouldn't because I know anything can happen and it could be lost. You could loose a radiator hose or water pump, etc, overheat it, and blow a head gasket or lock it up. The oil bypass valve in the oil pump could stick and you could loose oil pressure. An injector could stick and you could hydro lock the engine. A foreign object could get into the engine (such as a broken spark plug tip) and destroy a cylinder in the engine. It could get low on oil and spin a bearing. Ship happens. We all do our best to protect our engines. Some build 2K dollar engines. They buy expensive (though now more affordable) oil pump gears to protect their investment. The do it because it's taking out another weak link, killing off one more point of failure. They buy them because they don't wanna have to do this again. Nothing wrong with do it once, do it right, but it's expensive. The more they spend, the stronger and more reliable the engine becomes. However, it's not immune to failure. Just less likely to succumb to it. In my case, I'd rather buy 4 engines instead of a set of pistons, or 4 engines instead of a set of rods, or another engine instead of a set of bearings, or another engine instead of a paying a machine shop to polish my crank, or two more engines instead of paying to have my pistons coated, or two more engines instead of buying oil pump gears, or another engine instead of ARP studs. BP's have been around for a long time, and here they can be found in good shape for cheap. Given my circumstances and preferences, it makes sense to use a stock motor and keep a spare. |
Pat, dont mean to say youre wrong or anything, but most of the cost of a built motor is the initial investment of the rods and pistons, and whatever machine work you have done.
Example: I spent 500 on pistons, 700 on rods, 300 on main and head studs and 500 on machine work. thats 2000 and then the gaskets and bearings. It netted me +40 whp over stock, naturally aspirated. Ive now rebuilt my motor once at the cost of a head gasket, $100, rings $79, and rod bearings $45. But I do all the work myself so that may be an issue to others. I re-ringed the motor after 3 years just out of precaution for the upcoming turbo build. Im running 11:1 compression and will be turbocharged very soon. |
Originally Posted by jc_rotor
(Post 311208)
Pat, dont mean to say youre wrong or anything, but most of the cost of a built motor is the initial investment of the rods and pistons, and whatever machine work you have done.
Example: I spent 500 on pistons, 700 on rods, 300 on main and head studs and 500 on machine work. thats 2000 and then the gaskets and bearings. It netted me +40 whp over stock, naturally aspirated. Ive now rebuilt my motor once at the cost of a head gasket, $100, rings $79, and rod bearings $45. But I do all the work myself so that may be an issue to others. I re-ringed the motor after 3 years just out of precaution for the upcoming turbo build. Im running 11:1 compression and will be turbocharged very soon. Go start a thread on compression ratios and boost. I want to discuss that. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 311200)
It's really hard to say, and it would all depend on circumstances. My car runs fine right now. It has good compression, good leak down numbers, and it's burns < 8 oz of oil after 5K miles. So I have no intentions of pulling my motor apart before boosting it since it's fine. Plus I don't think forged pistons are needed anyways for the power I'm looking for. Add to that, I have a good 81K mile spare engine sitting on a engine stand that's ready to go if I ever do blow an engine. If my motor took a shit tomorrow, I'd swap motors and buy another spare to keep.
Personally, I'll probably never build a motor because it's easier and cheaper to keep a spare and IMO, it's better. You could build a nice motor, have detonation, and break it. Then you'll be out a lot of money and have to build another. That's expensive. In my case, I bought a good used motor for 88 bucks, and if my stocker dies I'll swap them out and get another 88 dollar motor to keep as a backup. Personally, I feel better beating on it knowing I have a spare if it breaks. Some would feel better beating on their car knowing it's got 3K dollars worth of forged internals. I wouldn't because I know anything can happen and it could be lost. You could loose a radiator hose or water pump, etc, overheat it, and blow a head gasket or lock it up. The oil bypass valve in the oil pump could stick and you could loose oil pressure. An injector could stick and you could hydro lock the engine. A foreign object could get into the engine (such as a broken spark plug tip) and destroy a cylinder in the engine. It could get low on oil and spin a bearing. Ship happens. We all do our best to protect our engines. Some build 2K dollar engines. They buy expensive (though now more affordable) oil pump gears to protect their investment. The do it because it's taking out another weak link, killing off one more point of failure. It's another drop in the bucket in a sense. They buy them because they don't wanna have to do this again. Nothing wrong with do it once, do it right, but it's expensive. The more they spend, the stronger and more reliable the engine becomes. However, it's not immune to failure. Just less likely to succumb to it. In my case, I'd rather buy 4 engines instead of a set of pistons, or 4 engines instead of a set of rods, or another engine instead of a set of bearings, or another engine instead of a paying a machine shop to polish my crank, or two more engines instead of paying to have my pistons coated, or two more engines instead of buying oil pump gears, or another engine instead of ARP studs. BP's have been around for a long time, and here they can be found in good shape for cheap. Given my circumstances and preferences, it makes sense to use a stock motor and keep a spare. |
Originally Posted by oilstain
(Post 311231)
Link to plethora of pinatas Motors for $88 a piece? I mean, hey I live in a small apartment with my wife, but for $88, shit, I need a new coffee table!
Hence the name, you have to pull the motor. For some this is not an option. It's not a problem for me as I prefer to pick and choose my own engine, and pulling one take about 4 hours from walking in there to driving off in my truck. They sell "engines" for 163.99, but that's with all accessories, brackets, flywheel, etc. The engine and all its peripherals as if you cut the motor mounts and slide the transmission off. The "motor" I speak of is their price for a long block. Everything from the valve cover to the oil pan. No manifolds, brackets, or flywheel. |
Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 311238)
http://www.barrysupullit.net/products.php
Hence the name, you have to pull the motor. For some this is not an option. It's not a problem for me as I prefer to pick and choose my own engine, and pulling one take about 4 hours from walking in there to driving off in my truck. They sell "engines" for 163.99, but that's with all accessories, brackets, flywheel, etc. The engine and all its peripherals as if you cut the motor mounts and slide the transmission off. The "motor" I speak of is their price for a long block. Everything from the valve cover to the oil pan. No manifolds, brackets, or flywheel. ...another reason to leave MD. |
Originally Posted by oilstain
(Post 311247)
In MD, the pick n pulls haven't seen a miata in a year.
...another reason to leave MD. |
I haven't seen a miata in over a year at the local yards. I have seen Ford Protege's out the ass though, and 95-97 Kia Sephias, and 323's, and Escorts. They all have 1.8 BPs. My motor I have on the engine stand cam from an automatic Kia Sephia. It's a mazda BP 1.8L and has the MBSP stock. Granted it doesn't have the 99' head. I'll swap mine if I ever use it, though I wouldn't have to. But seeing how it cam from a low mileage, clean clean car that was totaled in an accident, and through tedious inspection, I feel confident I have a good motor that has never seen a hard life. I doubt it's every turned 7K in it's life. Being an auto I think it has lower compression than my 99, but I need to verify that. Still, for 88 bucks after tax with the motor set in my truck, it's not a bad price to pay for a ready to go motor that I feel is as close to new as one could expect for its age.
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 309921)
After driving a 500whp C5Z, I have no aspirations for 300whp anymore.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 310210)
Lots of folks with FM Weiscos in built motors, nobody complains about cold knock or oil consumption.
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^What pistons did you end up with Hustler?
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Hustler had low comp Supertech's, but he sold them and bought Wiseco's I think.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 315140)
Hustler had low comp Supertech's, but he sold them and bought Wiseco's I think.
I bought the supertech's because I wanted the lower expansion rate at the cost of strength within reason. Its going to be a 220-250whp car, so I don't need the strongest thing out there, but not a bad idea considering my car sees roughly 30-hours of track time per year. If I could do it all over again, I'd just coat new stock pistons. Actually, if I could do it all over again, I'd keep the 1.6. Maybe that will change when the 1.9l 99 motor fires over. |
lol, 3 sets...fuck dude.
How much did the supertech's run you and what size overbore? |
I got the rods and pistons (1mm over) for $730 or something like that. I was only after the rods, but for that price I did both.
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