williams805

iTrader: (2)

Lately I've been looking into this and read many opinions on the subject. Found on other forums that it is common practice to remove squirters. Fish around on SRT4 or Mitsubishi forums and you will see what I'm talking about.

From what I read, mostly it's for those that have replaced factory cast pistons with aftermarket forged units. Some claim forged simply don't need it. Other have noted that aftermarket pistons (like my Supertechs) have oil drain back holes near the oil control rings where the factory pistons do not. These drain back holes can be overwhelmed by excess oil from the squirters and lead to oil consumption.

Some respected members on this forum run them religiously and some have found removing them has helped with oil consumption. I hope these members will chime in here and post their oil consumption figures.

Let's talk about cons for removing squirters:
1) Less piston cooling. Some people will look and this thread and say you are retarded for considering removing oil squirters with a boosted engine. "The factory put them there for a reason", is always the go to. "It makes the piston cooler so less detonation".

2) Less lubrication for piston walls. (like they need extra or something)

Please add more pros in your posts as that's all I can really think of.

Now pros for removing squirters:
1) More oil pressure under peak. What I mean is; the oil relief valve in the oil pump sets max pressure in a healthy engine. But before the oil pressure reaches the spring pressure of the relief valve, bearing clearances, oil viscosity (and temperature), engine rpm and other "leaks" like oil squirters determine oil pressure. So removing squirters and plugging holes will give more pressure under the relief valve pressure.

2) Less oil in the air. Same idea as a crank scraper here. Less oil on the crank may net more power.

3) Lower oil temps. Most I have read about claim their oil temps are less without the squirters spraying the bottom of the piston and absorbing heat. So what? "Just run an oil cooler" most will say.

4) some claim they can run more timing do to less oil in the combustion chamber.

If there are other thread here that I've missed where someone has found some definitive answer on this subject, point me to it. I have not read anywhere that someone has a failure that is a direct result of removing the squirters and some of these guys even claim their engine longevity has increase. We're not talking about 200whp either.

I have mine in now but will be pulling them soon. I'm on a fresh rebuild and consume about 1 quart of Rotella T6 every 1k miles of street driving. I'm running 84mm Supertechs and Wiseco XX rings. My oil consumption may be caused by bad honing, or break in. I'm not blaming the rings, pistons or anything for that matter at this point. I am removing my squirters only, to see if that helps. If not, I will re-ring and hone the cylinders. I'll update here and let you know how it goes.

Keep it civil here. Your opinions are just that. If you have actual experience and knowledge (not just some old school way of looking at things) please share.

williams805

iTrader: (2)

Also I'm running a check valve in front of PCV and I know for a fact I'm not having a PCV related issue. My PCV side catch can/ separator has only ever had a shot glass or less in 3k miles. My fresh air side can, has never had any oil in it.
My compression is 180-185. My cylinder leakage is about 3% across the board. However both of these numbers could be masked do to oil sealing up the combustion camber.

guttedmiata

How did you break it in? A quart every 1k miles is a ton. I'm guessing removing the squirters isn't going to solve that.

williams805

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, I know. We will see. That's why I'm doing it before a re-ring. Just want to be certain. Plus it's super cheap and fast.

Warmed it up and then drove wide open throttle to 4k rpm a few times with heavy decel. Then up to 5k with decel. And so on. Maybe the time I let it warm up screwed me. Next time I'm thinking I will put a hot plate under the oil pan for an hour to heat the oil. Then I can just WOT right out of the gate.

guttedmiata

Did you use the rotella to break it in? Old stock or new stock?

williams805

iTrader: (2)

No, Rotella. Joe Gibbs break in.
What do you mean old or new stock? Is the new stuff not the same as old? My oil analysis show plent of zinc. What is the cut off for old and new? Is there a date?

williams805

iTrader: (2)

Ring gaps were .017"-.018" top. Had to file because .012" out of the box.
Second rings .019"-.020" out of box so I left them.
Oil controls .019"+ out of the box. I think the largest was .022". I didn't write down the largest gap because I wasn't concerned at the time I just wanted to make sure they were at least what the second rings were.

Savington

iTrader: (31)

Hone may have been wrong. How long did you wait until switching to synthetics?

williams805

iTrader: (2)

1000 miles. Started with joe Gibbs and changed the oil with joe Gibbs at 500. Switched to T6 at 1k.

You run squirters Sav? I've read several places you've posted that you don't burn oil.

I asked my machinist specifically about hone and he said shout be good for chrome rings. Thinking if I have to re-ring I will try a different machine shop. Actually he said it would be good for any rings.

guttedmiata

Using the Joe Gibbs was the way to go. Should do that first dump at 50-100. Nothing to due with seating rings, but just as a side note.

Yeah, the rotella was changed. Last year some time I think? I don't run it, but you can do a search on here and find the info.

Don't know about running wiseco rings in supertech pistons, but those end gaps are fine for wiseco rings in wiseco pistons.

The machine shop would have to be pretty bad to screw up the hone. How long did the car run at idle warming up?

bbundy

I don't run squirters. Repeatedly had oil consumption and cylinder wall wear issues till I took them out. and Flyin Miata built my motor the first couple of times. They don’t use squirters in their builds with Weisco pistons any more now either.

williams805

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for posting.
The only thing I'm a little concerned about is not running ceramic coating on the piston tops. If it turns out I have to pull the slugs, I will have them coated. You are running coatings correct? How concerned should I be running without squirters and no coating?

Twibs415

iTrader: (8)

im running weisco pistons and rings, no coating, and no squirters. i learned the second rebuild that i didnt want them in my engine. Aftermarket pistons arent cast right for squirters IMO

williams805

iTrader: (2)

Nice thanks.
How many miles have you run this way?
How the oil comsuption compaired with when you did run squirters?

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

Actual Experience:

I've installed new rings on pistons without honing. DRINKS oil. Like a quart every few miles/barely runs it drinks so much oil, soaks the plugs with oil till it misfires.

I've installed new rings on pistons where I did hone the cylinders, but I used an autozone hone, don't remember the grit but it was ROUGH. This engine ran, and boosted for a while, but compression was lower than expected (about 120-130, with my comp it should have been 150-160). Engine always had some blow by but it didn't cause any problems. It did not use oil though! As in none.... I never added any in 2 years/probably 5K miles with probably 200+ passes at the drag strip.

I've installed new rings on pistons where I did hone the cylinders, I used a bottle brush hone, that was the appropriate grit for chrome rings. Runs fine, uses no oil, no blowby at ALL. Only put 700 miles on this motor before wearing it out due to 8,800 RPM rev limit, but piston sealing is fine.

FWIW! As you can see I learn the hard way sometimes!

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

Also, new motor is FM Weisco's and no oil squirts as BBundy does. I won't argue with what works! I spoke to Keith about them and he says they are not needed. Their new piston design is stronger, and to make them fit with oil squirters he said would make them weaker. I'm fine with stronger pistons.

In THEORY, they should run hotter without the oil cooling them.

But these forged pistons, if you look at the Strength vs Temp curve, you'll see all aluminum pistons eventually turn into playdough at a certain temp. Weisco's forging, their alloy, that point where they go from big strong pistons to playdough is at a higher temp than other forgings/alloys. Thus they can withstand higher temps for the same load vs other pistons. Downfall is piston slap on coldstart, etc, well documented.

THATGUY6258

as some one lurking in this thread have you pulled your squirters yet? i am curious to see if you get any results

williams805

iTrader: (2)

Not yet. Shooting for next month (March) sometime.

TheBandit

iTrader: (8)

Make sure you have something to plug them or you will have to have someone weld up the tip of the squirter for you. The bolt length needed for a plug is abnormally short and I had to machine them to length. I might have it written down somewhere.

Leafy

iTrader: (1)

Thats interesting to note. I did notice that I could barely get 5 events out of an oil change before hot oil pressure at idle was lower than I'd like. I didnt pay too much attention to useage 2 years before because I was running the non synth rotella for a good bit of the season (or the car wasnt running yet), and only did a couple events that year on the T6. Between that and the film strength tests I saw it makes it easier to go with VR1 instead.