Gates standard or Blue Racing Timing Belt?
 

While getting ready to finally install the turbo I have removed the front engine covers and intake manifold to look around and make sure everything is still looking good after the rebuild I did about 10-15K miles ago. I found one intake manifold stud broken (top one furthest to the front) and two nuts missing. I also found the timing belt to be really loose, even after adjusting the tensioner to the tightest position it still flexes a little more than I would like. I cheaped out and got the Autozone Duralast belt, but want to go with something better this time. I am at least looking at the standard Gates belt or the Gates Racing blue belt. I do not rev over 7500 rpm and only see one or two track days a year. 949’s website mentions that the blue timing belt can be noisy onstartup and in the cold, but how loud is that for the guys that daily with theblue belt?

Which onewould you guys recommend?

I've never used the Blue racing belt but I got one for the rebuild I'm doing.

It's not much more $$$ and it's "better", I don't see why not to get it.

Plus if you do the valve cover mod you can show off your fancy BLUE timing belt, and be cool like all the other cool kids.


ALSO, when can you make me a set of brake caliper brackets like yours?

PRETTY PLEASE....?!? PLZ?

ALWAYS get the part that says "Racing" in it. ALWAYS.

My only concern is the additional noise mentioned on the 949 site. I don't want to have a newbie belt squeel every time I start the car on a cold day. Other than "Racing is always better", what other reasons are there to run the Blue belt on the street.

From experience, racing is not always better on the street!

I've only done one timing belt change on mine so far so I don't have a lot to compare it to...but I used the Continental belt that came from Rosenthal's timing belt kit and I have no complaints.

My blue belt doesnt seem to make noise on startup.

I know its never been reported in miata's but on subarus supposedly the blue paint wears off the belt and onto the idler/tensioner pullies and increase the pulley diameter and eventually cause the belt to fail. Probably not a big deal.

I always figured the necessity for the Gates belt to be relevant to the demands likely to be placed on it. Is this going on a built motor that will see significantly elevated power levels? i.e. beyond stock rod strength, if not, then it's very unlikely that the belt will do more for you than add to the color pallet of your engine, as your rods should give well before the belt. Also, isn't a little belt flex within factory spec (and dependent on current cam position)? It was my understanding that if you adjusted all the flex out of it, then it would be too tight, causing advanced wear on the belt/ tensioner and idler bearings.

Rosenthal Timing Belt/WP kit FTW!

I'm curious about you intake manifold stud and nuts. That's extremely unusual. Is your torque wrench properly calibrated?

I had a broken one when I took the manifold off this winter, and I broke a 2nd one trying the double nut method to remove. And I didnt even get to the loosening step of the double nut method, just started tightening the nuts together than the stud broke inboard of both nuts.

I have the blue belt, its not crazy loud. Had a fairly loud whine when it was new, but a few hundred miles later, it was dulled down quite a bit. Now i can only hear it when in high RPM's or revving at a stop. Its nothing to be worried about... unless you are one of those people who wants your car to be dead silent all the time like a hybrid. lol

I put the blue kevlar belts on everything, and I don't even carry the standard belts in stock. If the noise bothers you, I would suggest covering your ears, although you might have to put your purse down first :party:

I never noticed any additional noise from mine. I really can't even imagine what noise it would make if it were to make a noise since it's not like it's going to slip or anything. The blue one is a lot prettier.

I don't mind noise, I just hate a belt squeel when cold almost as bad as brake squeel. Makes you look like an idiot. I am only shooting for a 200whp max goal and a factory spec engine (just refreshed and ported) no upgraded rods, pistons or anything so I am wondering if I will need any of the benefits of going to the blue belt.

The intake stud was found broken. It did not break during installation or removal. The fracture surface looked more like a fatigue crack/break. I have one of the thin thermal gaskets installed between the manifold and the head, don't know if that caused anything. I am thinking the manifold nuts hat to be retorqued after some period of settling or gasket compression because all the other nuts were prette easy to breake loose. I am going back with the standard metal gasket.

... How is a timing belt going to squeal, exactly? It's not a squeal noise, it's a toothed belt. It's a whining.

If I had known I would get a cool noise from the blue belt, I would totally have gone for it. I doubt it'd be as cool as straight cut cam gears in a Type1 VW motor, but anything helps.

robert

Will the blue belts make my car sound like this?

Supposedly they are the same construction as the standard Jesel belts, Fiberglass core, HSN material, nylon jacket. But 'our' people at Gates didn't know what I was talking about when I asked about the blue GatesRacing belts, so who knows.

EDIT: I'm talking about the timing belts. Accessory belts may be constructed from different materials, and probably are.

Typical of big corporations. People on this side of the hall don't talk to the people on that side of the hall.

I've been running on the same Gates blue timing belt for 2~ years now and its been totally silent until just recently when the temps got down closer to freezing at night. It makes a little noise for 10 seconds or so on start and then it goes back to being totally silent. Will probably buy again when the time comes.

Again, unless you're just color conscious, I'd say no.
That's not to say that the Gates racing belt isn't a great product, but to answer your question, NO.

I've used both. The standard gates black belt, and their blue belt.

Neither made noise. The black belt did and is still doing fine in another car at 250hp. No noise, works fine.
The blue belt i put on my car works just as fine with no nose at all. It also works up to and past 8000rpm. The one other reason i put the "blue" one on was that extra sense of security for the high RPM's.

I've been using mitsuboshi belts on all my cars, they actually make OEM belts for certain brands (honda, i think subie) and they are super cheap.

I think based on what sav said, i'll rock dat blue belt on my new semi-built bottom end.

Spoke to a spec miata builder who does north of 500 engines a year this week... blue is a nice color...

Whats wrong with the stock Gates belt? Any failures every reported south of 60k?

yep, purdy much.
It's easy to get the the tension a little too much.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1389328954

LOL at adjustable cam gears, carefully set to 0.

Never heard of one snapping first hand. Even used one for a charity rallycross event that had coolant on it when we couldn't find anything the night before on the beater car

yeah, sorry, shouldn't have put an older pic in the first place. That was the vodka and oj talking LOL.

I've had two timing belts get destroyed on me on a sketchy as hell motor that I bought. One of them, an oil pump bolt backed itself out and got ejected through the valve cover, caused the timing belt to jump a few teeth on either cam. It did come out in one piece, though, just barely. Everything looked OK, so I replaced the oil pump bolt and bought a Bando from NAPA, did a track day, and put 5k miles on it before it completely broke when turning into a shopping center.

Sooooooo, I bought a Mazda2 and parked the car for a year while waiting to graduate college, start a new job, and acquire parts. I put a blue Gates on my VVT motor.

I had an OE belt come apart after 10 hours on the 350whp powerplant in Theseus. No high revs, just power. That was enough to scare me off OEM belts for good.

Blue because I take the bait of "betterness" when I have to use a gear-puller to get my crank pulley off.

Ive only done one timing job but i have the standard gates and its been quite alright. Don't see a need for a "racing" timing belt lol.

Likewise, especially since these engines (1.6 or 1.8) are non-interference. I could only justify a fancy-ass-belt if the head assembly has been modified to a point where it is now an interference engine.

-Zach

With my hundreds of hours of beating the snot out of Miatas on/off track for 10 years. I have never had a belt break. I won't mention names but a buddy is running a used one he took off my garage wall on his turbo track car lol. Honestly most timing belts I pull off are in good condition. I basically change the timing belt because I want to replace the cam and crank seals, and the water pump.

On my completely stock Miata I bought ALL Gates performance and/or regular gates parts (when performance wasn't available) for every single part required in a timing belt change including water pump etc.

The reason I did this was so I could beat on the car and drive aggressively without feeling guilty or like I was gonna break something. It worked fine however buying everything gates is a lot more expensive than a $60 timing belt kit.

Also no loud noises or squealing on start up

I found the blue belt for only $35 on ebay which is only about $10 more than I could find a decent non racing belt for. At this low price there seemed to be very little reason not to try the blue belt. Heopefully it will be coming in today so I can replace all the front seals and install the belt this weekend. The tensioners and waterpump were replaced 10-15k ago so I am just keeping them.

How long are you guys running the racing belts for before replacing them (mainly street use)?

I believe in Sir Hustler's build thread he stated he was replacing them every season on the Green Glory Hole. Most found this interval to be excessive and dispensed appropriate criticism but I'm not sure if this has changed his opinion.

On a non interference motor on the street? I plan to run my blue until it breaks, if I notice it looks shaggy, if I manage to puke oil on it, or if I manage to make it another 60k before something lets go.

Hmm. that's ridiculously cheap. Are you sure it's part #T179RB and not just an accessory belt instead or that it's indeed a legit Gates belt?

If it is legit, you can run that thing till the cows come home at the power levels you're talking about.

Its ligit part #T179RB it came in today. I was planning on running it for at least 50k. I hope to swap to a NB head before then and i will change the belt at that time if needed.

Damn. That's a heck of a price then if it was new. Or was it used?

Its new in box. Why would I buy a used one, lol. The guy had 10 listed and I grabbed the last one. I will let you guys know if he relists some more.

If you're making X times more power than stock then its a no brainer. The reasoning is simple - crankshaft rotation is not smooth. The crankshaft accelerates with every combustion event. If you're making 3 times the stock power, then guess what, that acceleration is 3 times higher. The belt rides directly on the crankshaft and therefore it is subject to much higher forces as well.

Hence I have the blue belt.

Looks like they're already listing again. Shows three available. I agree, for that price, why the hell wouldn't you go blue.
Gates T179RB Engine Timing Belt High Performance Automotive Timing Belt | eBay

Yup, that is the same guy. They ship fast too!

I just cranked it for the first time since I did the turbo install and timing belt swap. I forgot I stuck the blue belt in there since it didn't sound any different. My car isn't quiet by any means, but I don't hear any sounds that would be considered annoying on the street. I have not tried a 30 degree cold start, which might be a different story.

SOB!!! While getting ready to pull new wires for sequential fuel and COP I noticed something strange.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1401980160

I noticed a small bolt sticking through the upper timing belt cover right below the valve cover. I pulled the valve cover and timing belt cover and found this.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1401980160

That is freaking less than 100 miles on a brand new belt. Luckily I found the first one for cheap and picked up a replacement from the same guy for $35 again. I am glad timing belt replacements are easy on these cars. I am used to the hell of front wheel drive timing belt replacements on 1.8T VW engines (i've done 8 of those) and rank 2nd on my worst jobs to do, right after FWD clutch replacement.

I found the culprit.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1401980160

I found one of the timing belt cover backing plate bolts missing and three others were loose too. I knew I should have used locktite on these too, i did on every other bolt. Bad news is that I think the one that came out is stripped on the head side. I will have too drill and tap for a slightly larger bolt or come up with some way to prevent this from happening in the future. Right now I wish I could just leave all these covers off!

I never heard any strange noises or anything. By the look of the belt I am lucky to have made it home. These belts must be real strong if it can stay in tact with half of the cords being cut!

Nice front thermostat block off btw!

I had that happen to me, except the bolt went through the valve cover O_O
Thats the story of how I have exposed timing belt.

Be careful with those bolts. They are different lengths and you really need to pay attention. The holes are blind. If you put a too-long bolt into one of the holes and torque, the result is either a sheared head or stripped threads.

Oh . . . and loktite FTW!

I've started to just use my drill to "torque" those M6x1 bolts. It says 19ft/lbs. Whatever that means.

If I try to put any force on them I snap the heads off.

I might look into running an exposed belt. I have always been worried about getting crap in an exposed belt, but after this crap I might just get some adjustable cam gears and run with an exposed belt. I need to do some research first. Do you guys take all the covers off? I always thought most people just trim the valve cover so you can access the can gears but leave other covers on.

Thanks! Made it out of 1/4" 6061 plate tapped for 1/4 NPT and used 1/4 NPT tee and barbed fittings. Works great. 3 years and 5 track days with no leaks or issues.

I've been running fully exposed with blue belt for 3 years...no issue yet as daily driver...

homo question to thread jack this a little....is there a safe way to clean this belt to keep it shiny blue and pretty??

Yes. Leave it covered.

:fawk:

Who's run these consistently in sub zero weather and can comment on the cold start (literally) noise?

I have had a few PMs now about the source of the $35 blue belt.

Engine Timing Belt High Performance Automotive Timing Belt Gates T179RB | eBay

Just do an EBay search for Miata gates timing belt and this guy pops up. He seems to relist frequently.

Glad to know that it's properly listed. I was convinced that he had accidentally listed this as a timing belt rather than a serpentine/accessory belt.

Let's hope there is no such thing as a Gates "rep" :rofl:

I'll give anyone a $20 bounty to find a Gates Blue belt for an F2T.

Is it the same belt as the F2?

12v F2, yes. No idea if the 8v F2 uses the same one.