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Going f!ix my turbo to manifold joint for good!
I have had it all, copper coated, hardened, and now this shit is loose again with yet another stud broken and others backed off. It is time to put the idea below into practice.
Non-OEM turbo under race conditions: welding or die!
Originally Posted by E-mail reply from the guy from the pictures below
Hi, yes it was the only thing that lasted under race conditions... all the types of fasteners I tried eventually failed.. http://www.turbo240sx.ca/images/turbowelded.JPG I will probably remove the entire intake plumming and disconnect the downpipe and try to remove the manifold and turbo myself and bring them to my shop to have them resurface the flanges and replace the four studs, tighten it all up, heatcycle and then weld it all together. |
i knew contents of this thread when i looked at title :)
hope you are not planning to upgrade your turbo later... |
How about just a few spot welds instead of all around like that?
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I think fabbing up a v-band setup would be much better, you could easily remove it if your turbo fails or you need to take it off for some other reason.
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Just thinking if driftbadgerbanger is cracking manifolds, and I've torn downpipes, I have a feeling that weld is going to crack eventually.
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What were you using for lock washers? Can't remember the name of the type I'm using, the ones w/ the ramps on them....those things are good and stuff.
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Nord washers. And they suck on track cars. Mine bit the dust long ago. They're still there, but they can't shit from back out. And once you do secure the studs/nuts so they won't budge, your studs will back out or the threads will strip. I already have a heli-coil in one of the holes in the manifold and I'm just waiting for it to die, at which point I'll probably weld mine too.
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If it were me, I'd never weld a turbo to a manifold, instead, I'd get extra long studs and fab a square piece of steel that was big enough to sit over top all 4 studs on the backside (threaded side). It may end up looking like a horseshoe to get around the exhaust and still cover all 4 studs. I'd then tack weld that plate to the end of those studs. They won't back out, and if you ever need to remove the turbo, you just cut off the tips of the studs and unthread the bolts as normal.
What's so hard about that? I thought that up just now in 5 seconds while reading the OP. |
@Project84: the studs break.
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maybe a turnbuckle is needed? Maybe a big ass heat sink can somehow be added? These are quality studs and they just break? I don't get it.... that's frustrating just to think about, let alone actually have to deal w/ that. Sorry man, thought my idea had it squared away.
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V-band or spot welds.
If I ever change from the Greddy I'll be looking for a v-band setup. Chris |
Like i said earlier, if you can do it, v-bands are the way to go. We have countless v-band connections on the airplane i work on (b-52h), they undergo much more stress than im sure any turbo setup on a miata does, I've never seen one fail.
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greenday - Hey, my brother's a B-52 pilot stationed at Barksdale AFB. I wonder if you know him? (I suppose there are quite a few B-52 pilots stationed there.....)
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V-band is nice, but I don't see how that is going to fit with this manifold and this turbo. So that is another very expensive route...
V-Band Adapter - GT25/GT28/GT307X-WG Series: atpturbo.com These aint for the turbo to mf connection... |
Originally Posted by Project84
(Post 413190)
turnbuckle
Heat sink for what?! |
Originally Posted by Spookyfish
(Post 413445)
V-band is nice, but I don't see how that is going to fit with this manifold and this turbo. So that is another very expensive route...
V-Band Adapter - GT25/GT28/GT307X-WG Series: atpturbo.com These aint for the turbo to mf connection... Tial Turbine Housings: atpturbo.com |
PROGRESS UPDATE:
Started to disassemble everything. Work for 2 hours this afternoon with icecream and beer breaks because the weather is lovely. The intake plumming is gone and all nuts are loose. Wasn't actually hard, just took it slow and easy. I am now in the process of removing the manifold and turbo as one unit. This is currently not possible because of stud length in the block and turbo which I am going to shorten all. Dremel works I found. After it is all out, i will also make a bit more room in the firewall/suspension top mount reinforcement area - the horizontal sheetmetal below the brake booster. Not alot, just a little more. The turbo+mf should then easily slide on the engine and downpipe. Pics monday probably... |
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I was thinking some type of heat sink like copper tubing that you could flatten on one end and drill a hole through it and run a stud down on it w/ a lock washer of course. (this would go between your fastener and the manifold) Totally just guessing whether or not it would work (or allow for you to adequately tighten your bolts) but it would suck a lot of heat of your fasteners (while looking ridiculously lame). Sorry... nix that idea, it blows. Oh, by the way, is your manifold flange cast? You're going to have a hard time wedling to it if so. |
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S
(Post 413430)
greenday - Hey, my brother's a B-52 pilot stationed at Barksdale AFB. I wonder if you know him? (I suppose there are quite a few B-52 pilots stationed there.....)
Back on topic: I thought you were looking for solutions for the MF to turbo connection not the turbo to dp? |
Originally Posted by greenday3437
(Post 413613)
Back on topic: I thought you were looking for solutions for the MF to turbo connection not the turbo to dp?
I will get new mf gasget and nuts for mf and dp. Should I replace the studs in head and turbo too or should they be fine? There are all quite new (sept 08). Im leaning towards leaving them alone and shortening them where they are excessively long. |
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Removed the turbo and manifolde earlier this week and took them to the race shop to have the broken stud removed.
Discussed the various options and they strongly advised against welding them. Welding injects a lot of heat and would alter the material and it would probably crack right next to the weld... :jerkit: They will source some incredibly strong studs and meanwhile I got the manifold and turbo back with the 'regular' studs so I can put together the car for street use at least... So while I can drive again once I get it back together, I am still at a loss at the solution to this never ending issue... :vash: During dis assembly I noticed the hex nuts on the oil return flange where not fully tight, so that probably caused some oil loss there I noticed a while back. |
I'm going to safety wire bolts with large diameter safety wire. If that fails, one time, I'm going with a begi s4 with v-bands on everything and a tial wastegate. There's a reason racecars use v-bands.
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Stuff back together:
It's good to have the car back together. But I am still debating the permanent solution for track abuse. |
is that the same turbo I saw in a box at Zomer last friday?
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Yes, most probably. They drilled out a broken stud in the manifold for me (and the other three because they were stuck) and replaced all four. Picked it up Friday at the end of the day and got it all back together last night.
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BTW, you should have told me you where going there so I could come over.
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New idea:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...g/DSC00663.jpg Brace turbo to block to unload manifold loading. |
Product:
Turbo Support Brace - 034 MOTORSPORT |
dirty dutch, lol.
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Other brace sample:
http://www.ripsracing.com/images/ima..._lines_lge.jpg |
The race shop suggested we source some Inconel (space material) studs.
Others also go that route: Inconel studs - where to get em Syd? - PerformanceForums |
There are several threads about this problem and I am a bit confused. if it is the studs stretching due to thermal expansion would you want to use a material for the stud that had a lower COE like titanium or if it is stretch of the stud caused by expansion of the flanges do you want something more resistant to stretch(is titanium more resistant to tension than steel?), just larger diameter studs, somehow add additional studs to the flanges?
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Originally Posted by Spookyfish
(Post 416474)
BTW, you should have told me you where going there so I could come over.
must've missed you by a couple of hours then. No worries, I'll be back there soon to get my adjustable camgears mounted and have the car retuned. Hope to break 150 rwhp then. I'll let you know when I go so we can meet up. |
I'm looking for an affordable set of titanium nuts and studs right now.
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seems like it will be a bitch to put in now...
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and if you break a stud?
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Bitch? yes
Impossible? no |
Stuff is still together after a 3-session track day and several street test runs. Anyone in for a batch of those studs and how much would you pay?
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