Did you fuck with the timing at all?
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I haven't looked at too many 2871 dynos, but it seemed like it took a while to spool then once it got there, it dropped off. It looked as if the turbo was too big for the engine, but without the peak numbers, which would indicate a lack of flow.
It sounds like the first thing to do will be to get your exhaust flowing better, then maybe an intake manifold followed by larger valves |
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I dont know if this is my best plot, but this is my set up. 1.8 built. BEGI cast mani. +1mm valves, 3" DP and exhaust.
This is about 1.5yrs old. I also have a gutted 99 intake. Thats not helping my spool. gt2871r. My point is, I believe you can do better. Esp with it being a 1.9?? |
Dynos make what they make. Any dyno operator can fuck with the numbers as he pleases and one of them leave their baseline as is. I've been on dynojets that are spot on with a fairly close drivetrain loss estimate and I've seen Mustang dynos that were jacked up from their "heartbreaker" numbers.
You get a baseline, you get it tuned, you get a final number, you compare the difference. That's what dynos are for. I'd much rather have a dyno operator that knows what the fuck he's doing than some moron on the "most accurate dyno in the world". And BTW, any good tuner knows the tuning differences from Dynojets that most owners don't set up for load (though they can), and a street tune. If you think you need a load bearing dyno to properly tune a car you really need more tuning time to know what the hell you're doing. |
gj wes
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Originally Posted by TURNS101
(Post 606545)
I dont know if this is my best plot, but this is my set up. 1.8 built. BEGI cast mani. +1mm valves, 3" DP and exhaust.
This is about 1.5yrs old. I also have a gutted 99 intake. Thats not helping my spool. gt2871r. My point is, I believe you can do better. Esp with it being a 1.9?? I think a good intake manifold like the honda skunk w/ BP flange welded on, should prevent the torque curve from going limp like that without taking away too much low/mid-range. |
Damn guys quit gangbanging the frikken intake manifold wagon. There are lots of 350+ hp miatas out there with stock intake manis.
There's lots of other shit in the car that affects the numbers not to mention the frikken tune, the damn boost control system, heatsoak etc... You know for all the cheering about intakes I haven't seen -one- real back to back same day pull with the ONLY change being the intake swap out. |
Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606609)
Damn guys quit gangbanging the frikken intake manifold wagon. There are lots of 350+ hp miatas out there with stock intake manis.
There's lots of other shit in the car that affects the numbers not to mention the frikken tune, the damn boost control system, heatsoak etc... You know for all the cheering about intakes I haven't seen -one- real back to back same day pull with the ONLY change being the intake swap out. If he's holding a pre-set pressure level all the way to redline what the fuck else would you IMPROVE on in the boost control system? There are many here that have shown before and after dyno sheets. The numbers don't lie. If you're going to go against the majority of members on here in your way of thought you better provide some damn good examples to validate your reasoning. So far only thing you've shown is how badly someone could fuck up a frame rail with a hack saw. |
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Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606609)
You know for all the cheering about intakes I haven't seen -one- real back to back same day pull with the ONLY change being the intake swap out.
Attachment 195706 So yeah, only like a ~30whp difference. |
Allright, here's a few:
http://flyinmiata.com/tech/dyno.php http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=342323 And here, Jay's done it. And that's just FM charts and you know there's many "FM cars" more out there which aren't on that website. Sav, I saw your graph and I "believe" but for the $, when it comes time for me to try one out I will do a same day back to back. 18psi if you really believe that having an IM is a prerequisite 300+whp that's asanine. If your turbo can handle it, moar boost will get you there. Don't be obtuse. As I said before, have you considered the frikken map? He didn't reply to my question about timing. Maybe his map is fucked, maybe the timing is untuned. Regardless, he can easily see over 300 with bigger injectors and more fuel. BTW it was a sawzall... I also don't like this shit too much because while the intake is not a closed system, it seems like the forum (collectively) is forgoing engineering. Does anyone know what the volume of a stock intake + runners is? What is the volume of X replacement? With the runner length, what power band should we expect to improve? What's the volume of the plenum and how does it compare to a stocker? I understand strapping one on and seeing what kind of difference it makes but who knows, maybe the results would be much more dramatic if it was sized properly and most of the intakes I've seen out there are smaller than what the maths tell me they should be. |
Originally Posted by NickC
(Post 606601)
BEGI cast mani is ambiguous, but I'm assuming you mean the turbo/exhaust manifold.
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Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606687)
I also don't like this shit too much because while the intake is not a closed system, it seems like the forum (collectively) is forgoing engineering. Does anyone know what the volume of a stock intake + runners is? What is the volume of X replacement? With the runner length, what power band should we expect to improve? What's the volume of the plenum and how does it compare to a stocker?
I understand strapping one on and seeing what kind of difference it makes but who knows, maybe the results would be much more dramatic if it was sized properly and most of the intakes I've seen out there are smaller than what the maths tell me they should be. |
Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606687)
18psi if you really believe that having an IM is a prerequisite 300+whp that's asanine. If your turbo can handle it, moar boost will get you there. Don't be obtuse. As I said before, have you considered the frikken map? He didn't reply to my question about timing. Maybe his map is fucked, maybe the timing is untuned. Regardless, he can easily see over 300 with bigger injectors and more fuel. BTW it was a sawzall... Reason people on here get bigger turbo's, head work, cams, tubular exhaust manifolds, and free flowing exhausts is why? FLOW. More flow = less heat = more power at less pressure. I get your point about no one REALLY doing thorough tests on stock im vs the sheetmetal ones, but then no one REALLY did any tests on the absurdflow and other tubular exhaust manifolds either to prove that they flow better than the BEGi log, yet everyone and their mother will agree that they flow more. |
Originally Posted by Sparetire
(Post 606772)
If you say BEGi cast mani, it's known what you're talking about.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 606790)
So your argument is that because we cannot spend the money to fully optimize the intake manifold, we shouldn't bother at all? I've gotten a quote for the kind of engineering work you're talking about, and it goes way, way beyond plenum size and runner length. Throat angles, cross-sectional area at several points down the runner, portmatching, etc, etc. Just the design quote was more than I have into my current IM, and then they wanted like 2-3x that for sheetmetal fabrication. It might get me 60whp instead of 30, and it might get me 35. Someday when I shit gold I'll go have that done, but in the meantime I'll put my money into other places.
The honda skunk manifold is popular and therefore "gangbanged" because it is cheap and proven to be effective on a similar engine. |
Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606879)
Is there anyone on the east coast with a hybrid honda mani? If so I will pay for some dyno tests. comeokn any takers
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 606805)
I get your point about no one REALLY doing thorough tests on stock im vs the sheetmetal ones, but then no one REALLY did any tests on the absurdflow and other tubular exhaust manifolds either to prove that they flow better than the BEGi log, yet everyone and their mother will agree that they flow more.
I will paypal anyone who has a NB mani the $ for a back to back dyno on the hybrid and stock mani, with fueling adjust for the same AFR targets. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 606805)
I get your point about no one REALLY doing thorough tests on stock im vs the sheetmetal ones, but then no one REALLY did any tests on the absurdflow and other tubular exhaust manifolds either to prove that they flow better than the BEGi log, yet everyone and their mother will agree that they flow more.
I will paypal anyone who has a NB mani the $ for a back to back dyno on the hybrid and stock mani, with fueling adjust for the same AFR targets |
Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606884)
Ok this is the shit that bugs me. Just because everyone thinks a part is better doesn't mean that it is better part.
Can you provide an example of a part that everyone assumes is better without any evidence at all? |
Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 606884)
I will paypal anyone who has a NB mani the $ for a back to back dyno on the hybrid and stock mani, with fueling adjust for the same AFR targets
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Originally Posted by JayL
(Post 606919)
How about some more details here. Are you looking for the only change to be just an intake manifold? If so, good luck because most people also change out the throttle body as well as alter the cold side intercooler piping. All of these items make a difference. Are you also willing to cover the entire dyno cost, not just the one money pull?
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