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Headers: 94-97 vs 01+ vs aftermarket
Hi everyone,
So I finally came across a 99-00 motor to replace the blown one in my 97. I figured while its out, I get most of the bolt-ons upgrades and maintenance items over with. The car is primarily used on the track with the occasional Auto-X. Engine will remain untouched, at most the MSM camshaft upgrade. Other than that, plans include: Supermiata clutch/flywheel (1.6) Squaretop intake manifold K&N intake Header MSPNP 96-97 That said, most of the research ive seen about the 01+ OEM tubular header being an excellent upgrade is coming from the 99-00 cast manifold, but nothing has been compared to the tubular header found on the 94-97. Some have said that the gains from switching to an 01+ header are comparable to gains from an aftermarket header, and that those who already have the 01+ header would see minimal gains switching to aftermarket. Would this still be the case coming from the 94-97 header? If not, would there be significant gains changing to the RB 4-1 header? Thanks! Kris |
If this is an NA chassis the amount of work to run the 01+ header wont be worth it.
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Just grab the 94-97 RB header.
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I've got a ceramic coated JR for sale in the same area if you want to go that route. I'd bet you'll get similar performance out of the 01+ header versus any aftermarket tubular from the NA. Mine would not work with the factory airbox on the NA however. Not sure if it's an older model or what, but the tube lengths are longer than the current model JR header.
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So ive decided to go with an aftermarket 4-1 header.
While the Racing beat and Maxim Works headers are ideal, apart from fitment, is the difference in actual power gains worth the difference in price compared to an eBay 4-1 header? I know this question has been beat to death, but most people only comment on the fitment/install differences, but not on actual power gains. The reason I ask is because the motor ill be putting the header on is out of the car, so installation should be much easier either way. Ill be running a MSPNP as well, so in that particular scenario, would the actual power gains be essentially the same between the headers? |
Ask emilio. Probably savington too. They mentioned numerous times that ebay header - crap and the popular name brand ones are the way to go. Not just fitment wise, everything wise. Those two have done more n/a builds and track testing than most here, so I'd probably believe them.
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The RB works, is <$500 shipped, and is extremely robust. I can't imagine wasting my time with an ill-fitting eBay header that may or may not crack after a year or two of use.
The RB header I used for a few years on Rover originally came from bike in dirt, a Socal track junkie who used it for hundreds of hours on at least two cars before jumping to a Hytech header. When I switched to my longtube Stahl, I sold it to a customer of mine who's using it in his own PTE car. Probably 400-500 race hours on that header and it has never needed any repair at all. It's kind of a no-brainer. |
The Stahl's only ~150 more. Worth it over the RB?
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1056427)
The RB works, is <$500 shipped, and is extremely robust. I can't imagine wasting my time with an ill-fitting eBay header that may or may not crack after a year or two of use.
The RB header I used for a few years on Rover originally came from bike in dirt, a Socal track junkie who used it for hundreds of hours on at least two cars before jumping to a Hytech header. When I switched to my longtube Stahl, I sold it to a customer of mine who's using it in his own PTE car. Probably 400-500 race hours on that header and it has never needed any repair at all. It's kind of a no-brainer. If I'm lucky, I can make it out to roughly 5-7 events over the course of the spring-fall here in the Midwest, which equates to around 10-14 hours per year of actual seat time. Assuming you're getting 50 hours of track time per year, the claim for a year or two with your seat time would likely be equivalent to 4-5 years for me. At that point, if it breaks, even purchasing a second header would still keep me under the cost of the Racing Beat. With that said, we know that fitment and now durability can both be had in favor of the Racing Beat. But still, when it comes to actual power, can it truly be said that the Racing Beat header makes significantly more power gains than the eBay header? I'm willing to spend my money where I can justify it (like the set of XIDAs I just purchased), but as a college student, I'm not one to spend the extra coin for a something if its actual purpose (power) can be had for cheaper, at least for now. The motor will be out already so fitment is out the window. Durability may be less, but for the amount of time I track my car, replacing it every couple of years shouldn't be an issue. However, if it can honestly be said that the power gains from the racing beat 4-1 header are significantly more (5 whp+) than an ebay 4-1 header, it would make me more keen on considering it. |
Originally Posted by itskrees
(Post 1056547)
The motor will be out already so fitment is out the window. Durability may be less, but for the amount of time I track my car, replacing it every couple of years shouldn't be an issue.
I'm not wasting my time with an Ebay unit. I'll either sticking with OEM 01+, buy an RB, or buy a Stahl and have a custom exhaust made with a flex pipe to hopefully prevent any potential cracking issues. It seems to me like this is just another problem caused by these engines vibrating so much. |
It seems like ebay is a poor choice. The two battling street tire miatas up here bought headers at the same time, one got an RB the other went RL. RB cracked in under a year right at a weld, the RL is still going strong. We've had a few cracked RBs up here that people have had repaired, talking with one of the guy's who is a welder by trade, the welds on some of them were too hot.
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Originally Posted by jpreston
(Post 1056570)
I don't have any personal experience with Ebay headers other than watching the experiences of 3 friends over the past couple weeks. One of them had his <1 year old Ebay 1.6 header crack at the track this weekend after less than a year. The other two bought Ebay headers for vvt swaps. One bought a springfield dyno 1.8 exhaust and ended up having to take the car to an exhaust shop to mate the two together because the flanges were so far off. The other didn't even try and had a custom exhaust built to work with the Ebay header, and was still paranoid about it cracking all weekend. I'm not wasting my time with an Ebay unit. I'll either sticking with OEM 01+, buy an RB, or buy a Stahl and have a custom exhaust made with a flex pipe to hopefully prevent any potential cracking issues. It seems to me like this is just another problem caused by these engines vibrating so much. That said, still interested to hear what is to be said about the power differences between the two, for the sake of future reference. Id say that pretty much swayed me a bit in the RB direction. |
2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Oscar
(Post 1056449)
The Stahl's only ~150 more. Worth it over the RB?
My custom 4-2-1 longtube Stahl. Built in 7 pieces because it would be impossible to install otherwise. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1380043589 |
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1056574)
It seems like ebay is a poor choice. The two battling street tire miatas up here bought headers at the same time, one got an RB the other went RL. RB cracked in under a year right at a weld, the RL is still going strong. We've had a few cracked RBs up here that people have had repaired, talking with one of the guy's who is a welder by trade, the welds on some of them were too hot.
I am assuming "RB" is Racing Beat and "RL" is Raceland, aka "eBay header." |
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack
(Post 1056604)
Are those typos above? The bulk of your post seems contradictory to most anecdotes and your own first sentence...
I am assuming "RB" is Racing Beat and "RL" is Raceland, aka "eBay header." |
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1056574)
It seems like ebay is a poor choice. The two battling street tire miatas up here bought headers at the same time, one got an RB the other went RL. RB cracked in under a year right at a weld, the RL is still going strong. We've had a few cracked RBs up here that people have had repaired, talking with one of the guy's who is a welder by trade, the welds on some of them were too hot.
However, seeing as Savington is now running a 4-2-1 header (and a quality one at that) and from your account in regards to the raceland's durability, it may be another option to consider. Leafy, did the two guys notice any differences in the powerbands between the RB 4-1 design versus the RL 4-2-1 design? |
Doesn't the Raceland have some shitty fitment issues? Judging by their low res picture, I don't see a bump to give clearance for the steering.
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I cant give a good comparison on the two guys since so much else was different in their cars. The reason I mentioned the extra length on the runners for the RL is because its tuned for too high of an rpm range. Based on the runner lengths, it wants your peak power to happen around 8k rpm. The 4-2-1 doesnt necessarily make more low end, they typically make a wider and less peaky power band, and in the opinion of some master header builders make more peak power than 4-1 as well.
Some people seem to have reported problems with fitment on the RL, but they normally complain about it rattling off either the tranny or the trans tunnel. |
What size primaries on those? My BOIGs are starting to get thinnnn.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1056600)
I wish the Stahl was only $150 more. I paid $1100 for mine. Only worth it if you're looking for a specific powerband for a race class - my Stahl is specifically designed for maximized low-end torque at all costs.
My custom 4-2-1 longtube Stahl. Built in 7 pieces because it would be impossible to install otherwise. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1380043589 |
I've had a Raceland header for 3 or 4 years, can't remember. I got it for $93 shipped off ebay. It cracked once about a year and a half ago right at the collector and split all the way around when I was about 200 miles from home on the opposite side of the continental divide, $50 to reweld. I drove it year around through snow rain and summer track days. Still have it on the shelf in case I need to abandon the turbo setup for emissions or some other reason. It's easier to install than the OEM mani and lighter and fits just fine.
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Originally Posted by itskrees
(Post 1056547)
I don't doubt the durability of the header either, but again some people don't have the opportunity to track their car for hundreds of hours per year.
If I'm lucky, I can make it out to roughly 5-7 events over the course of the spring-fall here in the Midwest, which equates to around 10-14 hours per year of actual seat time. Assuming you're getting 50 hours of track time per year, the claim for a year or two with your seat time would likely be equivalent to 4-5 years for me. At that point, if it breaks, even purchasing a second header would still keep me under the cost of the Racing Beat. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1056600)
I wish the Stahl was only $150 more. I paid $1100 for mine.
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Originally Posted by itskrees
(Post 1056547)
I don't doubt the durability of the header either, but again some people don't have the opportunity to track their car for hundreds of hours per year. If I'm lucky, I can make it out to roughly 5-7 events over the course of the spring-fall here in the Midwest, which equates to around 10-14 hours per year of actual seat time. Assuming you're getting 50 hours of track time per year, the claim for a year or two with your seat time would likely be equivalent to 4-5 years for me. At that point, if it breaks, even purchasing a second header would still keep me under the cost of the Racing Beat. With that said, we know that fitment and now durability can both be had in favor of the Racing Beat. But still, when it comes to actual power, can it truly be said that the Racing Beat header makes significantly more power gains than the eBay header? I'm willing to spend my money where I can justify it (like the set of XIDAs I just purchased), but as a college student, I'm not one to spend the extra coin for a something if its actual purpose (power) can be had for cheaper, at least for now. The motor will be out already so fitment is out the window. Durability may be less, but for the amount of time I track my car, replacing it every couple of years shouldn't be an issue. However, if it can honestly be said that the power gains from the racing beat 4-1 header are significantly more (5 whp+) than an ebay 4-1 header, it would make me more keen on considering it.
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1056759)
So you're willing to save $250 on the header knowing full well that there's a high likelyhood that the part will fail and potentially ruin a $500-$700+ (entry fees, transport fuel, hotel, amortized brake/tire/bearing wear) track day? Especially when that track day represents ~15% of the track time you will get for the entire year? Sounds like a smart decision to me :party: And even then, the experiences that leafy and vitamin j have brought up completely contradicts the claims made about the durability of the Racing Beat versus the cheaper alternatives. If the RB has been known to fail after less than a year of use, that would also be putting me at high risk for the same situation as you described. So wouldn't knowing that a raceland header can outlast a racing beat under the same track conditions be enough to at least consider it? That said, its not a matter of saving $250, its more along the lines of why would I spend an extra $250 for a header if theres not a significant difference in power or even potentially durability? That money can go towards a clutch, dyno tune, coolant reroute, track day, etc.. Based on the differences in claims even just from this thread, I hope you can see why this topic isnt as clear cut as it has been made out to be. That said, ill gladly shut up once I have an answer addressing power between the two headers. |
I have no idea whether the eBay header makes more power. No vendor will ever do that A-B test, because headers aren't expensive enough and the test won't sway enough people to buy the RB even if it did produce a 4+whp bump (which it might, I don't know). What I do know is that RB is a Mazda-oriented company so they probably did a half-decent job designing a header specifically for the BP. If you think Raceland or whoever else is making eBay headers this week spent the same money on R&D/engineering, you're smoking some super awesome crack.
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itskrees:
Remember when you should have listened to me before? I'll say it again. I've had an ebay header. Even if it were free I wouldn't buy it again. I needed a six foot pry bar to install it, it didn't match up to anything and rattled like crazy. Like I told you originally, get the RB, don't go lower. Edit: I should say, in all fairness, the OGK header I have now was definitely not any easier to install. Six foot prybar plus two hours of sweating. The RB I owned was slick, strong and looked great, though. |
I just installed a RL in my 2000 and it's coming back out to be replaced by a 2001+ factory.
If I had the engine out and had room to swing a big sledge hammer maybe I could've got enough tunnel clearance but otherwise, even with one of the tubes flattened a bit to clear it still bangs/rattles against the tunnel. The header went in + came out 3 times to get it that far. Then, the rear flange was rotated about 5-10 degrees so the bolt holes didn't line up. Had to slot the holes with a dremel cutoff wheel(s) to make them work. And, to make matters worse, the flange face was just enough out of square with the converter pipe to need 3 gaskets to seal. What really set me off though was an email I got from the RL CSR telling me the fitment issues of old had been resolved. So, I'm going to send the POS back to them. Just my thoughts and opinion. |
There's a big difference between the OBX and Raceland headers. Both are sold on ebay but the OBX is a pile of shit and the Raceland is a copy of the Jackson Racing header. It's a Chinese copy and like all Chinese copies some are good and some are bad.
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It's clear who has and who hasn't been to the track.
Moving on, how long would it take you to contact OBX or Raceland? I think the longest it took me to call up Racing Beat was 2 hours because I live on the East Coast and their office wasn't open. |
Didn't you already make that joke? Also you should at least get the quote correct.
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1057496)
It's clear who has and who hasn't been to the track.
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1057496)
]Moving on, how long would it take you to contact OBX or Raceland? I think the longest it took me to call up Racing Beat was 2 hours because I live on the East Coast and their office wasn't open.
And I have a fair amount of RB products on my car. |
I was making fun of vitamin j.
It's good the RL has somewhat decent customer service, it just sucks that their product is garbage. ;) |
Old thread is old but still relevant to my interests so here goes:
My first 1.6 Racing Beat header cracked after a couple years. Racing Beat kindly replaced under warranty and told me they had some problems with a certain batch of manifolds. My replacement 1.6 Racing Beat header cracked again after 1 year. It was repaired by my welder friend and is sitting on the shelf collecting dust. I upgraded to Mazdaspeed motor mounts to eliminate that as a possible culprit. Installed a generic 1.6 eBay header, has been on car for past 4-5 years with no problems to report. I know eBay parts are a crapshoot and many people have had fitment issues with the 1.8 headers. Quality control varies and with the supply chain being what it is you never know if you're going to get a decent one or a bad one. What worked for a guy 5 years ago might be crap today or vice versa. Same problem when buying Harbor Freight parts. Now I'm looking for the right 1.8 manifold to go with my 1.8 motor swap so I'll probably give Racing Beat another chance. I just wish TDR thermal insulating blankets lasted longer before burning through as you definitely need to use some sort of heat shield and I don't want to do header wrap again and Jet Hot supposedly doesn't last well on polished SS headers. |
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