Interesting info for those here claiming w/i>* - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-02-2011, 02:31 AM   #1
Murderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default Interesting info for those here claiming w/i>*

There are a few here that preach "intercoolers are not needed with w/i" etc.
You might find this interesting.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2277692
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 02:51 AM   #2
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tyler, TX
Posts: 254
Total Cats: 0
Default

Really good info, thanks for the advice.
85z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 03:49 AM   #3
Elite Member
iTrader: (10)
 
soviet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VA
Posts: 3,516
Total Cats: 255
Default

GREAT POST WOULD READ AGAIN A++++++++++++++++++

3psi more, 60whtq less. lols.
soviet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 06:59 AM   #4
Oni
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Tasmania, AUS
Posts: 164
Total Cats: 3
Default

good testing. I would have liked to know the mixture ratio and ammount injected, the power /TQ loss was directly related to intake temps acording to them and that should have been countered by adding a higher concerntration / ammount of methanol. To a point it would have reduced the intake temp towards its usual intercoolec temp, possibly matching it that would be when the real power gains would have been made. With such a short intake tract on the subie there likly wasnt enough time for the meth to really lower the IAT, thats where they should have tested pre turbo injection and would have gotten much different results on IAT's.

Im not bashing the write up etc, its really intersting. But there are a few things they could have done to improve the situation, im gonna guess that this company sells intercooler kits? .

I honestly dont think W/I is a total replacement for an intercooler but there is a place for a simple W/I only system, with enough injected at the correct location IAT's are a non issue as proven by most meth injected carb cars / old school jets.
Oni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 04:41 PM   #5
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

who here was claiming it was better than anything?

(e-cool need not apply)
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 08:10 PM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (4)
 
MartinezA92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 1,702
Total Cats: 28
Default

E-cool was the first thing to come to my mind.

Somebody should post this on m.net and watch the shitstorm ensue.
MartinezA92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 08:25 PM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

I'm one of the ones running WI without an intercooler (are there others?).

I'm also a moderate boost guy (10psi). The effectiveness of an intercooler is directly proportional to boost because you've got to have hot charge air for an intercooler to do its thing. If my goal was 15psi or above (article target was 19), you can bet your hinny that I would have an intercooler.

I'm happy with my setup. Reliability and driveability are great and there are a lot of other advantages for moderate boosters. Once I get some dyno results, I promise to make a detailed, heretical post so that you guys can flame away.

Last edited by hornetball; 12-02-2011 at 09:17 PM.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 09:13 PM   #8
Senior Member
iTrader: (14)
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South East Florida
Posts: 690
Total Cats: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
who here was claiming it was better than anything?

(e-cool need not apply)
paging magna..
94mx5red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2011, 11:48 PM   #9
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: sacramento ,ca
Posts: 402
Total Cats: 46
Default

you dont need an i/c... the dodge caravelle has the turbo directly attached to the log intake manifold... and has the throttle body bolted to the inlet of the turbo.
fastivab6tg25mr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 12:55 AM   #10
Hittin' Boost & Cones
iTrader: (2)
 
240_to_miata's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cromwell, Connecticut
Posts: 2,572
Total Cats: 11
Default

it kills me to admit that there was a productive engineering related thread on nasioc. . . but I think it happened.

I am interested to put my w/m on and tune for it.

I put megasquirt on my buddys 5.0 with a kenne bell and we maxed out the IAT sensor on the original setup. We almost went w/m only due to space constraints (it was in a yota pick up)...but we instead went with an awesome custom water/air intercooler. GLAD we did.
240_to_miata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 11:22 AM   #11
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Thanks for the link, Vlad.

I'm curious to see what people think here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?p=5484461 I believe my post is fairly neutral in tone.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2011, 02:47 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Thanks for the link, Vlad.

I'm curious to see what people think here: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?p=5484461 I believe my post is fairly neutral in tone.
I liked your posts over there Joe. Spot-on. I was one of those that had a misconception about water/meth injection and its ability to cool the intake air. After 8 months and 10K miles of actual experience, many of my misconceptions (not all, I'm sure) have been dispelled.

The main misconception I had was that water/meth injection would be much more effective at cooling the intake charge -- as the ads say, "chemical intercooling." But, in my experience with post-compressor injection, the main evaporative cooling from WI happens in the combustion chamber. The more alcohol you use, the more the ratio gets tilted towards cooling the intake tract vs. the combusion chamber. With pure water, at least 90% of the cooling is in the combustion chamber.

Cooling the combustion process does some good things, it acts like extremely high-octane fuel letting you increase timing to MBT (you likely are no longer det limited), increase boost, and/or increase CR.

Focusing on the mid-range where there was a large torque disparity at similar boost numbers, what Perrin's test showed is that there is only so much to be gained from increasing timing from det limited to MBT. It was much more effective to make torque by physically getting more air and fuel into the combustion chamber by cooling (and increasing the density) of the intake air.

One of the byproducts of using the intercooler is that the turbo is working harder (that's where the work to increase density is coming from). It's not a 1:1 increase though as the intercooler cools by wasting some of the work that the turbo does as heat. In this case, the intercooler worked the turbo so hard that it ran out of steam on the top end.

Cool stuff. I like thermo.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2011, 03:04 PM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,881
Total Cats: 45
Default

Very interesting data.

I'm curious how much water/ meth they were injecting and what ratio they were running.

I'm also curious how (practically) effective straight meth injection can be. I'm sure you guys have seen a methanol Top Alcohol dragster or Pro Mod after a pass with the carbs frozen solid from the heat of vaporization of evaporating the methanol in the carb venturis. That may have something to do with evaporating a gallon and a half of meth in 6.x seconds, though...
vehicular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2011, 05:28 PM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

I think the article said they were spraying 50/50.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 10:05 AM   #15
Murderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

Bumping my thread to try to steer the conversation toward same topic except with e85 instead of w/i.

Actually kinda considering going that route til I build the bottom end.

From what I've been researching/reading the past few days, tons of people run up to 10-15psi on various different cars/setups (making some serious power I might add, way more than we make on our cars) without any ill effects. e85 burns a lot cooler iirc. Knock/detonation/pre-ignition is nearly non-existant. AIT doesn't effect output/safety nearly as much. Etc.

Here's the scenario if that makes it easier to consider:

01 vvt stock engine 10:1 comp
2876r with all supporting mods (3" exhaust, tubular mani, etc)
only 11psi or less on wastegate spring (no mbc or ebc yet) so it should be pumping as cool a charge as possible
1000cc Injector Dynamics
e85
NO INTERCOOLER just a cross over tube with blow off valve on it.

Question:

WOULD YOU DO IT? YES/NO and WHY/WHY NOT

TIA
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 12:24 PM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,881
Total Cats: 45
Default

The DSM guys are running a lot of 'hot pipe' E85 setups these days. They run small injectors on the manifold, and a bunch of big injectors right at the compressor outlet/ between the compressor outlet and throttlebody, which gives the maximum amount of time for the hot charge to evaporate the fuel. There has been some VERY serious horsepower made like this.
vehicular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 12:35 PM   #17
Murderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

So its like e-cool with e85?
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 12:45 PM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 1,881
Total Cats: 45
Default

Yes, but with less homo.


You might not want it because of that.
vehicular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 12:49 PM   #19
Murderator
Thread Starter
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

Well I did attempt to read the thread Joe started on M.net, and after about 2 minutes my head hurt from all the retarded fgts defending e-cool and how it MYTHICALLY/MYSTERIOUSLY still works despite not really working and whatever. Don't even know why I bothered clicking the link honestly.

That's why I'm asking here again instead of that stupid ass forum.

My idea would be to run it without any extra injectors or nozzles. Just via the ev14's in stock location.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2012, 01:21 PM   #20
Free Moustache Rides
iTrader: (8)
 
matthewdesigns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 1,656
Total Cats: 49
Default

I tried a hotpipe setup on my Talon once and it knocked like a bitch. This was on e85 and a setup that when typically intercooled never knocked. But I was trying this at 25+psi, not 10-15.
matthewdesigns is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 57 07-19-2017 05:11 PM
Buzzing from driver side of engine bay? (MS3 install) nick470 MEGAsquirt 7 06-16-2017 02:53 PM
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
Leaky Wilwoods mx592 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 1 10-01-2015 01:45 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:33 PM.