Loud Clattering from the Head at Startup??
 

When I start up my car after it's sat a while (30 minutes-1 hour), I hear a loud clattering from the head. After about 1-2 seconds, it goes away and everything sounds great. If I immediately restart it, it sounds normal. If it's only sat for 20-30 minutes, it only clatters for about a half second or less. It happens when the oil is cold and when it's hot.

Strange thing is that this started happening in my old stock motor too, around 70K or so miles. My current motor is a completely different block, head, oil pump etc etc and is freshly built.

WTF is this shit? I am not low on oil. FWIW if I crank with the valve cover off, oil does shoot up the VVT stalk. Not a huge stream of oil, but it does spray. I do also have oil pressure on my gauge after startup, in cruise etc.

I am guessing this clattering has to do with oil pressure building up in the head? WTH is it happening in both my old and new motor? Does anyone else hear this when they start up? Help please. I don't want my fresh motor to die young.

Here's a pic of the cams fwiw. As you see, there is oil in the head.

Attachment 241592

My 1.8 does it every time I start it up. Pretty sure both my 1.6's did it also. I don't know much about accusump but if you are worried about damaging something due to low/no oil pressure on startup maybe you should look into it.

I am pretty sure when you turn the car off the oil drains down into the engine and the ticking from the lack of oil for the few seconds it takes the pump to supply oil to the head.

Well, it's not really a ticking. It's a loud BRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAATTTTTTTTTTTT

I will make a video soon.

In the meantime, anyone else experience this?

Do you still have hydrollic lifters? If you do, don't sweat it.

It takes a few seconds for the oil pump to push oil into them. Until then there is no "pillow" of oil inside the HLAs and they click when they bottom out. If the sound continues for more then 5 seconds or starts randomly while driving then worry.


Make sure you are using an oil filter with an anti drainback valve (it'll be on the box and you usually can see the the rubber like material in the little holes on top of the filter itself) and the correct weight oil for your temp range, too thin can cause the same issue.

This is part of the reason you should let your car idle for 30 seconds to a minute before driving, just to make sure the oil have traveled everywhere it needs to.

My gosh...how many of you people don't understand that 99-05 heads DO NOT HAVE HYDRAULIC LIFTERS?!

I know that noise you are talking about- almost like a spinning bearing that is loose. Next time it does it, immediately turn the engine off and restart and it should go away. Mine did it now and then...but I never figured out why. It *seemed* to happen when oil was a bit low...but I never determined that for a fact.

Does it happen every single time you start? For me, it goes away after 1 second so I just let it go after I start.

Oops probably should have looked at the year. Admittedly i know nothing about NBs or NCs.

Did they go to solid tappets?

I only had it happen awhile back on the engine before I replaced it. Since the sound was very hard on my ears, when it would happen, I would cut the ignition and restart the car....I didn't want to take any chances, ya know?

Hmm can you tell from my awesome picture? I don't know much about heads.

Nope but I think I read somewhere that they weren't hydrollic.:rolleyes:

The VVT actuator kinda gives it away.

Are your cam pulley bolts tight? Get the feelers out and measure at cold and hot on the lifters.

Yah they are tight. How do I measure the lifters and what specs do I look for? I do have feelers. Is this in an online manual or something? I did some searchasaourusing but didn't find details.

Is the Actuator hydrollic?

Yes. Operates via a solenoid that sits on top of the valve cover.

I am pretty positive if his cam bolts were loose he would loose timing quickly (as I did). So where is the video of this "noise"???

Anything hydrollic acts on fluid pressure. If the is no fluid there is no pressure. This causes lifters and actuators to bottom or top out. The metal on metal contact makes the hash clicking noise until fluid pressure is built up to pervent said contact.

I would treat it exactly the same as HLA noise.

Do you have heavier valve springs? This would magnify the effect because the cams would have just a bit more resistance to rolling because of the increase pressure on the lobes.

happens to me everytime i start the car cold....i should get into the habit of starting the car in 'flood clear' mode for 5 or 10 seconds. It's just the oil pump self priming. The ticking would probably go away with near perfect cam->lifter clearances.

9 times out of 10 my car doesn't do it. Only after I drive it hard, park, and start it 5-10 minutes later. It'll tick from anywhere from 20 seconds to 5 minutes.

There you go making stupid posts again.

"hydrollic".... lol.

Just stop posting in here, you have no idea what you're talking about. The VVT system uses oil pressure and is activated by an electronic solenoid...nothing like HLAs on 90-97 engines that just use oil pres. to push on the lifters. Also, VVT isn't a on/off kinda system, it's constantly variable based on rpm and engine load and makes seemless adjustments.


Fae- I know the sound...it sounds like a friggin' diesel engine at start up, sometimes it starts immediately, sometimes there is a small delay between start up and the noise (~1 second) and it's LOUD. Amirite? When I heard it, I was too terrified to let it keep going enough for me to get out of the car and look for the sound. As I said before, I'd always turn the car off and crank it back up and it would be gone. Thinking back, it only did it on cold start up and when outside temps were cool to cold.

Fea, both systems could have empty hydraulic chambers at start up. If those chambers are fully collapsing without engine oil the you would hear the effect. Just my two cents.

Dopple, nice catch on the "hydrollic"

This isn't a $0.02 issue.

That being said, I have no idea about non HLA noises. I know my HLA's sing to me a nice drum solo when my oil gets about 2500 miles, lets me know it's about that time.

It's not a typical HLA noise if it's what I think it is..and I'm pretty sure I know what Fae is hearing. The frequency is much greater/faster than a HLA noise, it's much louder and the tone is deeper.

Also...99+ engines do not have hydraulic lifters...again.

I have been told that there is a locking pin in the VVT mechanism that can shear. When that happens upon start up this noise can happen.

Dope- it is like a diesel running but only for a few seconds.

Have a great day,
Jared

I'm aware, if that was directed at me. Was just using this as an opportunity to bitch about my displeasure with HLA noise. All the more reason to go with a newer head.

[off_topic]For people with HLAs, if you are displeased with the clatter, do this and you will never have a problem again.
Attachment 194656
[/off_topic]

[on_topic] GL man, hope you find the problem

If you find out that it is the VVT adjuster/cam sprocket (or what ever you call it), here is the mazda part number for it. BP6D-12-4X0. Depending on the vin there will be an a,b,c, or d at the end of the number. You will have to find that out when you order it.

Have a great day,
Jared

OK, this is great information. I think that this is exactly what is going on. The VVT adjuster/cam gear whatever the big shiny round thing is that is on the end of the camshaft was moved between my two engines. Everything else is different. That is the only thing in common. Also, since my original engine only started to make this noise about 60k miles in, I think that this locking pin must have fucked up. And it sound just like a diesel.

Have you replaced one of these before? If anyone has an exploded diagram of the gear that would be great so I can see what is involved.

I was told this by guy at the track who works for tripoint motors. He said that it was more common in the mazda3. But I would not doubt that the parts are very similar.

Have a great day,
Jared

Yah I saw the new parts cost. Owchie fuck. I can buy a whole frikken vvt head for that much :(

Yah, but if that is the issue then you will be having to deal with the noise again down the line. Just checked the mazda site and they have them in stock.

Have a great day,
Jared

Very intersting. I still have my VVT head and I may just look into it to see if I can find this. Mine didn't do it all of the time though....just a handful of times.

Mine just did it last night when I parked it on the street (usually in a garage) while waiting for an engine to be delivered. The car had sat out side fora good 3 hrs after sitting in the garage for a few hours as well. So the engine was cold. Last night was cold and foggy.

Just posting to keep a record of when it happened so that others may be able to recreate the problem if it is common.

Have a great day,
Jared

Hello,
Mine is also VVT engine and make the same noise as described, only sometimes. Till now I don't think its temperature related, its only on cold startup loud and for a second, then goes away.
So till now I was able to "fix" this with a different oil that I started to use but after 2 oil changes it's happening again?
Any ideas?
Best regards,
T.G