Radium Fuel Rail and why I got one
01-27-2018, 04:40 PM
#21
Also going off what was said a few posts up. A sae orb, an flare, and jic all have the same thread pitch. On some an fittings they even have a space for an o-ring. The orb fitting will be flat on the back. And the only difference between a jic and an is the angle of the flare but can typically be mixxed despite having a different flare and still seal good
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01-27-2018, 07:33 PM
#22
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Also going off what was said a few posts up. A sae orb, an flare, and jic all have the same thread pitch. On some an fittings they even have a space for an o-ring. The orb fitting will be flat on the back. And the only difference between a jic and an is the angle of the flare but can typically be mixxed despite having a different flare and still seal good
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01-27-2018, 10:09 PM
#23
JIC and AN have the same flare, 37 degrees. There are 45 degree fittings that may be incorrectly labeled JIC, but those are actually SAE-45 fittings and are very rare. AN is a military/aerospace spec that is much tighter tolerance than the lower cost JIC equivalent. If fittings don't have the same flare angle, they should NOT be mixed and will not seal.
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01-28-2018, 03:52 PM
#25
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I have this lean restart problem as well and it's been driving me nuts. I've seen this problem with both Flow Force 660s and Injector Dynamics 1000s. I attempted to fix this problem by installing a fuel temp sensor, a coolant reroute and a Vishnu fuel rail, each of which helped but didn't solve the problem.
I asked ID about the theory that hot injector coils would change dead times and cause lean restarts. They said it's technically possible there would be a minuscule change but not enough to make a difference. They said deadtimes effectively don't vary based on temperature. They didn't claim to be ECU experts, and especially didn't have tons of experience with Megasquirt, but they're not hearing these complaints on other applications. That led them to think the problem was in the MS.
I also talked with Jeremy at FM, who says they don't have this problem with ID 1000s driven by either of their ECUs. He's also unfamiliar with Megasquirt but suspected it was a settings issue or that the MS is missing some capability to handle hot restarts. He said that OEM ECUs are way more complex than aftermarket ones and can adjust for more scenarios, consistent with what Codrus and DNMakinson said. Jeremy suggested I tune so the engine starts pretty consistently and let EGO handle the lean restart. Basically, he said the problem was in the MS and not to worry about it.
That irritates the engineer in me, but it's hard to handle a situation an ECU doesn't support. I've been wondering recently if the engine needs some kind of timing adjustment when everything is hot. Even so, I've noticed the lean restarts correlate more to a heat soaked engine than anything else. They seem to be disconnected from CLT and MAT, which means it would be hard to adjust for because you couldn't trigger off those sensors.
I asked ID about the theory that hot injector coils would change dead times and cause lean restarts. They said it's technically possible there would be a minuscule change but not enough to make a difference. They said deadtimes effectively don't vary based on temperature. They didn't claim to be ECU experts, and especially didn't have tons of experience with Megasquirt, but they're not hearing these complaints on other applications. That led them to think the problem was in the MS.
I also talked with Jeremy at FM, who says they don't have this problem with ID 1000s driven by either of their ECUs. He's also unfamiliar with Megasquirt but suspected it was a settings issue or that the MS is missing some capability to handle hot restarts. He said that OEM ECUs are way more complex than aftermarket ones and can adjust for more scenarios, consistent with what Codrus and DNMakinson said. Jeremy suggested I tune so the engine starts pretty consistently and let EGO handle the lean restart. Basically, he said the problem was in the MS and not to worry about it.
That irritates the engineer in me, but it's hard to handle a situation an ECU doesn't support. I've been wondering recently if the engine needs some kind of timing adjustment when everything is hot. Even so, I've noticed the lean restarts correlate more to a heat soaked engine than anything else. They seem to be disconnected from CLT and MAT, which means it would be hard to adjust for because you couldn't trigger off those sensors.
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01-29-2018, 01:24 PM
#26
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ORB is a threaded port standard. So a Male SAE-8 ORB to Male AN-8 would be a fitting with male threads on one side (to connect to the female ORB fitting on the fuel rail) and a male AN flare fitting to connect a hose to. Or a Male SAE-8 ORB to Barb fitting would just be a hose barb adapter to thread into the fuel rail.
8AN ORB Fittings
See here, ORB is referring to the threads on the left side of the adapters in the pictures.
8AN ORB Fittings
See here, ORB is referring to the threads on the left side of the adapters in the pictures.
SAE Straight Thread O-Ring
SAE J1926-1
This fitting is also known as O-Ring Boss (ORB)
Recommended by the NFPA for optimal leakage control in medium and high pressure hydraulic systems. The male fitting has a straight thread and O-ring. The female port has a straight thread, a machined surface (minimum spotface) and a chamfer to accept the O-ring. The seal take place by compressing the O-ring in the chamfer. The threads hold the connection mechanically.
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01-29-2018, 07:30 PM
#27
Why dont you guys just tune it out. My ASE tables always start to go back up over 160F. It can deal with idling rich for 10 seconds in those rare instances you restart the car in less than like 2 minutes of shutting it off.
Hope the radium kit doesnt burn your car down. I havent had issues with my pcv plate (besides lack of attention to detail), but I know others that have had vac referenced dampers gush fuel.
Hope the radium kit doesnt burn your car down. I havent had issues with my pcv plate (besides lack of attention to detail), but I know others that have had vac referenced dampers gush fuel.
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01-29-2018, 08:49 PM
#28
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Why dont you guys just tune it out. My ASE tables always start to go back up over 160F. It can deal with idling rich for 10 seconds in those rare instances you restart the car in less than like 2 minutes of shutting it off.
Hope the radium kit doesnt burn your car down. I havent had issues with my pcv plate (besides lack of attention to detail), but I know others that have had vac referenced dampers gush fuel.
Hope the radium kit doesnt burn your car down. I havent had issues with my pcv plate (besides lack of attention to detail), but I know others that have had vac referenced dampers gush fuel.
I will use the OEM dampener, so no worries about it leaking (works fine now)
I am also not worried about burning the car down, a few thorough pressure checks will make me happy. Heck about 15 years ago I made a fuel rail for a set of old GSXR ITB's for my old 1992 when I was a poor college student. A rail is not rocket science, it either leaks or it does not, and a part milled from bar stock will be less prone to failure then a welded steel rail like OEM (which is also fine)
Raidum's two dampeners seem to have different operating pressures. so if perhaps someone used the 70psi (IIRC) damper with a 1:1 FPR it could over pressure. Or even using rubber instead of Viton maybe? This is speculation I have no knowledge of the people you reference.
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01-29-2018, 09:04 PM
#29
It really does make me wonder about the other stand-alones out there and what they do for hot restarts. Has anybody checked if other cars (different make/model) running MegaSquirt also experience this issue? I think MS has a pretty large BMW following/user-ship. Another idea is to check out other ECU forums to see if there are threads along the same topic. AEM, Haltech, or Adaptronic maybe? The thought that a Miata's fuel system is SO much different than all the others on other cars just seems remote. I feel that others with different cars/ECUs have come upon this issue and found a way to tune it into submission.
Another thing I've wondered about the factory setup is the vacuum solenoid that leads to the stock FPR. I'm pretty sure that it normally references the manifold pressure but when activated references atmospheric pressure. If my thinking is correct, that would boost the fuel pressure considerably at idle and the only reason I can think this would help anything is to keep fuel from boiling. Of course, added fuel pressure would make getting the correct amount of fuel injected at idle more challenging.
This kind of makes me wish I had done some testing stock before I went turbo. It would have been handy to just toss a light bulb in-line with that solenoid to see how the stock ECU uses it. Otherwise, a fuel pressure gauge on the stock system could potentially help as well. I'll be watching this thread for sure.
Another thing I've wondered about the factory setup is the vacuum solenoid that leads to the stock FPR. I'm pretty sure that it normally references the manifold pressure but when activated references atmospheric pressure. If my thinking is correct, that would boost the fuel pressure considerably at idle and the only reason I can think this would help anything is to keep fuel from boiling. Of course, added fuel pressure would make getting the correct amount of fuel injected at idle more challenging.
This kind of makes me wish I had done some testing stock before I went turbo. It would have been handy to just toss a light bulb in-line with that solenoid to see how the stock ECU uses it. Otherwise, a fuel pressure gauge on the stock system could potentially help as well. I'll be watching this thread for sure.
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01-29-2018, 09:11 PM
#30
You guys are funny.
We've been tuning this out for YEARS. With megasquirt. It's effective, it works.
But to answer your question: yes, other standalones as well as many other OEM ecu's have this logic built in. It is very similar to ASE, but (obviously) specifically applied to hot starts and cold starts in separate configurable tables.
This aint some new issue
We've been tuning this out for YEARS. With megasquirt. It's effective, it works.
But to answer your question: yes, other standalones as well as many other OEM ecu's have this logic built in. It is very similar to ASE, but (obviously) specifically applied to hot starts and cold starts in separate configurable tables.
This aint some new issue
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01-29-2018, 09:38 PM
#31
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You guys are funny.
We've been tuning this out for YEARS. With megasquirt. It's effective, it works.
But to answer your question: yes, other standalones as well as many other OEM ecu's have this logic built in. It is very similar to ASE, but (obviously) specifically applied to hot starts and cold starts in separate configurable tables.
This aint some new issue
We've been tuning this out for YEARS. With megasquirt. It's effective, it works.
But to answer your question: yes, other standalones as well as many other OEM ecu's have this logic built in. It is very similar to ASE, but (obviously) specifically applied to hot starts and cold starts in separate configurable tables.
This aint some new issue
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01-29-2018, 09:39 PM
#32
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It really does make me wonder about the other stand-alones out there and what they do for hot restarts. Has anybody checked if other cars (different make/model) running MegaSquirt also experience this issue? I think MS has a pretty large BMW following/user-ship. Another idea is to check out other ECU forums to see if there are threads along the same topic. AEM, Haltech, or Adaptronic maybe? The thought that a Miata's fuel system is SO much different than all the others on other cars just seems remote. I feel that others with different cars/ECUs have come upon this issue and found a way to tune it into submission.
Another thing I've wondered about the factory setup is the vacuum solenoid that leads to the stock FPR. I'm pretty sure that it normally references the manifold pressure but when activated references atmospheric pressure. If my thinking is correct, that would boost the fuel pressure considerably at idle and the only reason I can think this would help anything is to keep fuel from boiling. Of course, added fuel pressure would make getting the correct amount of fuel injected at idle more challenging.
This kind of makes me wish I had done some testing stock before I went turbo. It would have been handy to just toss a light bulb in-line with that solenoid to see how the stock ECU uses it. Otherwise, a fuel pressure gauge on the stock system could potentially help as well. I'll be watching this thread for sure.
Another thing I've wondered about the factory setup is the vacuum solenoid that leads to the stock FPR. I'm pretty sure that it normally references the manifold pressure but when activated references atmospheric pressure. If my thinking is correct, that would boost the fuel pressure considerably at idle and the only reason I can think this would help anything is to keep fuel from boiling. Of course, added fuel pressure would make getting the correct amount of fuel injected at idle more challenging.
This kind of makes me wish I had done some testing stock before I went turbo. It would have been handy to just toss a light bulb in-line with that solenoid to see how the stock ECU uses it. Otherwise, a fuel pressure gauge on the stock system could potentially help as well. I'll be watching this thread for sure.
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01-29-2018, 09:39 PM
#33
Raidum's two dampeners seem to have different operating pressures. so if perhaps someone used the 70psi (IIRC) damper with a 1:1 FPR it could over pressure. Or even using rubber instead of Viton maybe? This is speculation I have no knowledge of the people you reference.
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01-30-2018, 09:54 PM
#34
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I have this lean restart problem as well and it's been driving me nuts. I've seen this problem with both Flow Force 660s and Injector Dynamics 1000s. I attempted to fix this problem by installing a fuel temp sensor, a coolant reroute and a Vishnu fuel rail, each of which helped but didn't solve the problem.
I asked ID about the theory that hot injector coils would change dead times and cause lean restarts. They said it's technically possible there would be a minuscule change but not enough to make a difference. They said deadtimes effectively don't vary based on temperature. They didn't claim to be ECU experts, and especially didn't have tons of experience with Megasquirt, but they're not hearing these complaints on other applications. That led them to think the problem was in the MS.
I also talked with Jeremy at FM, who says they don't have this problem with ID 1000s driven by either of their ECUs. He's also unfamiliar with Megasquirt but suspected it was a settings issue or that the MS is missing some capability to handle hot restarts. He said that OEM ECUs are way more complex than aftermarket ones and can adjust for more scenarios, consistent with what Codrus and DNMakinson said. Jeremy suggested I tune so the engine starts pretty consistently and let EGO handle the lean restart. Basically, he said the problem was in the MS and not to worry about it.
That irritates the engineer in me, but it's hard to handle a situation an ECU doesn't support. I've been wondering recently if the engine needs some kind of timing adjustment when everything is hot. Even so, I've noticed the lean restarts correlate more to a heat soaked engine than anything else. They seem to be disconnected from CLT and MAT, which means it would be hard to adjust for because you couldn't trigger off those sensors.
I asked ID about the theory that hot injector coils would change dead times and cause lean restarts. They said it's technically possible there would be a minuscule change but not enough to make a difference. They said deadtimes effectively don't vary based on temperature. They didn't claim to be ECU experts, and especially didn't have tons of experience with Megasquirt, but they're not hearing these complaints on other applications. That led them to think the problem was in the MS.
I also talked with Jeremy at FM, who says they don't have this problem with ID 1000s driven by either of their ECUs. He's also unfamiliar with Megasquirt but suspected it was a settings issue or that the MS is missing some capability to handle hot restarts. He said that OEM ECUs are way more complex than aftermarket ones and can adjust for more scenarios, consistent with what Codrus and DNMakinson said. Jeremy suggested I tune so the engine starts pretty consistently and let EGO handle the lean restart. Basically, he said the problem was in the MS and not to worry about it.
That irritates the engineer in me, but it's hard to handle a situation an ECU doesn't support. I've been wondering recently if the engine needs some kind of timing adjustment when everything is hot. Even so, I've noticed the lean restarts correlate more to a heat soaked engine than anything else. They seem to be disconnected from CLT and MAT, which means it would be hard to adjust for because you couldn't trigger off those sensors.
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