I posted it in my build thread but forgot to mention here: the leaky STs I replaced with the ones from 949 seem to be holding up well. I'll let you all know how they do after the back-to-back trackday weekend at M@MRLS next weekend.

Though I'm not sure how to determine if its going to be my EFR or the new valve stem seals that are leaking, maybe @aidandj can advise :giggle:

Too soon...

???

Re: Aidan

Stem seals made it through the one session I ran on Saturday, and then all day Sunday at MRLS with nary a wisp of smoke. I are happy camper :bigtu:

For those following along at home...

These seals: Supermiata Valve Seal Miata

This valve spring compressor tool:
These valve stem pliers:
This hammer: https://www.harborfreight.com/2-12-l...mer-67816.html

Then add to your list a green Starbucks drinking straw (grande iced black tea, no sweet, easy ice) about 3' of cotton or nylon rope, some razor blades, a valve cover gasket, a quality in/lb torque wrench, some engine assembly lube, a tube of RTV, and a copy of the valvetrain section of the FSM appropriate to your engine and model year and you should be good to go.

Taking the valvetrain apart is not exactly for the faint of heart, and certainly not something I would recommend without proper documentation. If you don't have the cams in the correct position when you tighten/loosen the caps, you can damage the bearing surfaces or bend the cams. That shit is game over, so get the FSM and follow the damn instructions. This is definitely in the reach of the homegamer if they take their time, do the reading, ask questions and keep organized. If you've done a timing belt, you can (probably) do valve stem seals.

G do you have Subs, and does that make a difference at all to the process?

No and I'm going to guess no. Looking at the SUB hardware I'd imagine its the same process with the same warnings: keep track of the cam caps (both location and orientation) and SUBs and shims and make sure they call go back exactly where they came from. As the British love to say, assembly is the reverse of disassembly. The key is organization, keep track of the parts and you should be fine.

Also, for the love of $DEITY, BLOCK OFF THE OIL DRAINS IN YOUR HEAD!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1b424335c3.png

This is NOT considered excessive. If you drop a keeper down the oil drain, the consequences could be quite dire.

That picture is mine. And it is like that because I had just spent 4 hours fishing a valve keeper out of the oil pan.

Anyone with a TSE built motor having issues with valve stem seals? From what I understand ST seals are the ones that go in TSE motors. I got one being built, hopefully it's not plagued with leaky seals.

He switched to felpros

That would be a question for TSE/@Savington. Where I you and this was the kind of thing that was keeping me awake at night (because this IS the kind of thing that would keep me awake at night) I'd pick up the phone and give them a call. I'm sure they would be happy to explain what they are using.

He posted in this thread.

I was going to say I read a thread about TSE motors getting ST seals, apparently it was this one :doh: I'm not sure if anyone with a TSE motor has noticed any sort of issue since he last mentioned using ST seals. Either ST has shoddy QC or a lot of people are botching the install.

He posted in another thread (and told me in person last weekend) that he bought approx 1million felpro seals on Rock Auto when they were pennies.

​​​​​But if you are buying motor from him, call and ask if you want to be sure.

You mentioned the earlier photo was yours - looks like you did not pull the full timing belt out is that correct? I'm hoping to do valve seals soon but just did my belt and pump last year, would rather keep the bottom half of as-is while doing seals.

you can kind of keep it as-is. but usually you will have to reset timing and stuff because the belt wont stay in place without the cam gears.

Definitely, makes sense. Seems like there's a bit to keeping the cam seals and other internal pieces aligned as well which is beyond my experience as a timing belt is the furthest I've gone, any recommended resources? Thank you

You may be able to keep things right if you mark the timing gears and belt to keep those aligned. Take a picture to see the orientation of the cams as well and everything to double check.

I used the same tools Gordon mentions above and sourced some Felpro valve stem seals. The Lisle 36050 is pretty damn handy and easier to use than I initially thought. I was fortunate(or unfortunate given the situation?) enough to do this with the head pulled.

Taking a hammer to your head is quite.....nerve racking. I had to get a buddy of mine to do the first one cause I was skurt. I tried both the hammer and compressing "techniques" with the tool. I found it easiest to hammer it to get the keepers off and then compress(a bunch) to "clip" them back in. This is a given, but worth saying.... you need to do this on a sturdy bench. I attempted to press the first one in on a typical fold-out table, it wasn't happy about it. I ended up relocating to the floor with a bunch of cardboard, towels, and paper-towels under the head.

Here's to hoping my valve stem swap was a success. I'll know sometime next weekend.

I was all set to do this job and realized NB's have shim over bucket lifters which I assumed had to be re-shimmed. You're saying you can just put the same shims back in?

Replacing valve stem seals does not, by itself, require re-shimming, so as long as you keep track of which part came from where and put them back in the same place you'll end up with the same lash gaps as you had before. That said, if it's been more than 30K miles since the last time you adjusted the valves there's probably at least one that's out of spec and this is a good opportunity to fix it.

I recommend picking up a couple of those little plastic storage bins with movable dividers to use in storing the parts. You can write on the top surface of them with a sharpie to indicate which ones came from which hole.

--Ian

Thanks - head was rebuilt 2 years ago and only used for 2 race seasons. I'll check lash first and make sure they're within specs. Good idea about parts bins - was going to use ice trays but probably a good idea to have something with lids!!

Would appreciate some help with re-assembly of the stem holder and keepers.

I'm using the leslie tool to get the keepers back onto the grooves in the stem. However, after multiple attempts the keepers seem to be sitting about 2mm higher after reassembly compared to the stems that I haven't disassembled yet. The end of the stems with the old seals are about 2mm above the keepers - I'm guessing that the top of the keepers is wrapped around the stem groove. However in the seals that I'm trying to reassemble it appears as though the bottom of the keepers is around the groove and the top of the valve is nearly flush with the top of the keepers. I have the wider end of the keepers towards the top with the narrower end towards the valve seals. To be clear, the keepers and retainer are definitely fixed in place and aren't moving at all once reassembled but the configuration looks different than the ones I haven't done.

I've tried adjusting the starting position a few times to make sure the keepers are not fully sat into the retainer in case that was preventing them from opening over the stem but no luck getting any different result so far. I think I'm hitting it more than hard enough and any more at this point seems excessive.

TLDR. Take a picture. If they don't look the same, they aren't seated. Slip a Ziploc bag in between your spring compressor tool and the keepers. It helps drive them in.

I'll try with the bag. I attached a picture of my reassembled seal, you can see how the valve stem is recessed below the keepers.https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...170a4a31f2.jpg

Pics no work?

Didn't work until the edit for some reason. Imgur alternative: https://imgur.com/a/tCIwY

Thanks for your help

Yep. That hasn't seated at all. Was up a clean rag below the head of the valve you are compressing so it can't move at all when you compress the spring. Slip in the Ziploc plastic to push in the keepers. You can double up the bag if it tears.

this is most certainly wrong. Looks to me like you have the bottom groove of the keeper where the top should be. Grease the keepers on the inside surface, and use a small flathead with grease on it to install the keeper. Compress the spring quite a bit, rotate the retainer side window so you.can access the keeper groove.

hard to explain in words....

edit: this is probably still on the car. My way probably won't work too well for you.

I've got nylon rope inside and have the cylinder pushed up as much as it will go so I think things are pretty tight on that end. For the ziploc do I just lay some flat on top of the keeper/retainer assembly while using the tool again?

Are you referring to doing this with a fixed compressor tool? Not sure I can make any adjustments with the Leslie tool since it all happens inside the tool. I guess worst case I can try to find one of those compressors you attach to the block and it pushes the spring down manually instead of the Leslie tool.

Yep lay it flat. I posted a pic earlier in this thread.

https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...5/#post1419278

Make sure when you install the keepers that the raised inner lip is on the end down closest to the combustion chamber.

Also, if you're doing this with the head still on, there's a chance that you don't have enough rope in the cylinder. I used Paracord, which is thin enough to really fill the cylinder. If you don't have enough rope in the cylinder, the valve will move down when you compress the spring, and the keepers won't seat even when you bottom out the valve spring.

Turns out my issue was just using a light hammer. 4lb hammer made easy work of getting everything seated.

However, I think I bent my exhaust cam taking this all apart. My cam won't rotate past the point of where cylinder 4 exhaust valves are pushed down, in either direction. Is this something I take to a machine shop to check and fix or how screwed am I here? Am I crazy to try putting the intake cam onto the exhaust (along with the respective caps) just to verify it's a bend shaft and not something else?

You probably bent a valve, and now it's contacting the piston. You've drifted this thread of topic though. You should start your own thread.

Not sure what it was but I went valve by valve and found 1 that didn't seem to spring down. Redid the install and cams are rotating smoothly so seems I dodged a bullet there. For a simple process this is definitely one you've gotta make sure everything is perfect. Thanks for your help

Getting back on topic...anyone used KIA valve seals before? OEM Seals. They are made in Korea. Are the Mazda seals still made in Japan or have they been outsourced to Korea? The part numbers look the same and they are dirt cheap. Maybe it’s the same thing for a fraction of mazda’s Price? https://m.ebay.com/itm/8-NEW-Engine-...-/182673943776

I will add some notes here as well. I used Felpro seals on my 1.6 NA about 8 years ago. The limiter is soft 8000 and 8200 hard, and I have been on the limiter quite often. The engine is seldom running under 3500 rpm while being driven. I have also logged over 2000 km’s on the dyno. Cams are 10mm with single Supertech single springs. I had the engine out last summer for other maintenance and there was virtually no signs of leakage on intake or exhaust. I am currently building a VVT motor, and it will be getting Felpro seals too.

I have nothing against the Supertech seals, and have used them on one MSM build with 100% success. I do believe the install is key to good service from any guide seal. If you don't use some sort of condom on the stem when sliding on the seal you are just begging for issues. Also if the valve has to come out, it needs a new seal. Seals will not survive the keeper groove being pulled through the seal. Always check to make sure the seal spring stays in place. Too much press on the seal can also damage them, just push enough to seat them onto the groove on the guide, and keep the tool as straight as possible. I do not like to see the tool rotating while pushing on the seal. I like to lube with silicone lube (Super Lube) it is very slippery and washes away easily. I will also note that guide clearance can also be an issue with oil control at the guides. Honing to size and adding a crosshatch will help control oil passing through the guide along the stem as it will help hold the oil there, remember that oil is needed to lube the guide and stem while the engine is running. Just because the guide and the valve are both new does not insure proper clearance, or that they are straight. These areas need attention during a proper build, to ensure oil control and seat concentricity.

Leaking Supertech seals here as well. My engine was built in the fall of 2016. I, nor my engine builder had any idea of the Supertech seal issue. My engine has consumed oil since day one of break in. I broke in the engine on 30wt Valvoline oil and switched over to Mobil 1 at about 800 miles. Switched Rotela T6, but the consumption continued. I foolishly thought the rings never seated. This weekend I removed the head for leaking intake valves in cylinder #1 (valve seat leak, not valve oil seal leak) and found clear evidence of oil going from the opening for the valve in the head out the exhaust manifold. Found this thread last night at 2am because I could not sleep with the troubles this engine is giving me. The head is at the engine builder for the valve seating problem. He will be installing OEM valve seals. Here is a picture of one of my exhaust ports.

BTW, I had a BE oil pump installed on this engine with one of the leaking front oil seals. Oh the joys of modifying our cars.

Ken, did your builder replace the valve guides when the motor was built?

I do not know, but I will ask. Do you think this may be valve guide wear and not the valve seals?

That's my theory. The Supertech/US Seal bits are far, far less tolerant of loose guides than the OEMs or Felpros. We used Supertechs for years and years, including in half a dozen motors I built for myself for various cars, and both of my current motors use them, and neither one has any problems with oil consumption or smoking. ~10yrs ago every 3rd or 4th head would get guides, usually the high-mileage nasty cores. Now it seems like half the heads need 8 guides and half the heads need all of them done, regardless of condition.

Interesting theory. Could be that the viton in the supertech seals is a bit stiffer and doesn't conform to a wobbly valve as much.

Funny thing Adaindj, (and I am showing my age here); in the past engines have not always had much in the way of guide seals and they didn't smoke... well, much. Some of the mid 1950's-60's era V-8's used nothing more than an O-ring atop the guide to "deflect" excess oil. In going thru a 1960 recently Catalina I ran into a valvetrain design where Pontiac had actually drilled oil galleys to feed oil thru the guide, and they didn't smoke... much.

I can't believe that a well made stem seal of this modern generation could cause so much trouble. If your guides are somewhere in the .0015-.0018" range then I would think that the oil control issues (in the amount that you are describing) would be coming from another source. I believe that you are onto something when you talk about loose guides and wobbely valves.

btw: I did pick up that other car... now how long before I have Gabe turn up the boost? cj

Well, those old pushrod engines had significantly less oil above the valves, unlike the DOHC motors that have 10+ oil journals to keep lubed entirely above the valve stems...

I just received feedback from my engine builder. All 16 Supertech valve seals are leaking. All valve guides showed wear, but are within Mazda specification. Right now my plan is 16 new valve guides and Felpro valve seals.

That's... impressive!

Reposted from the other thread here:
Issues with Supertech Viton Seals

I'm reposting this in order to keep the info on the Sticky.

"OK! I've finished a fairly exhaustive test to evaluate these valve seals. Somehow I've ended up with 7 different seals to test.

I decided to make up some kind of test in order to evaluate actual performance. Measuring the various dimensions is all well and good. But due to the spring, material type and shape/form of the lip, I can't positively establish which is really any better/worse.

So I made up a way to mount each valve seal as mounted on a valve stem. Then I'd simply add weight until the grip on the stem is lost.
Now all of these basically have a 'slip point' at which they whip right out. So I tried to very carefully measure that point. Using engine oil for lube, I put these on and gave them a chance to fall (over and over) in order to establish a repeatable measurement. In most cases I tested 3-5 samples. Unfortunately, some of these only had one or two samples to test (US Seal EOK, Felpro)

http://i66.tinypic.com/25throj.jpg

The results make perfect sense. Something we already know: DON'T INSTALL SUPERTECH VALVE SEALS.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2z6tcg2.jpg

Overall winner? A seal that I don't even have a new one to test. OEM. I'm going to guess that the seals on this motor are fairly well used. But I have no idea.

The Supermiata are great. Really tight fit and strongest grip overall."

I have a fresh rebuilt motor and I'm 90% sure my seals are leaking. I went with the supermiata ones after reading this thread. The engine builder checked the guides and said they were in spec, so didn't replace any of them. They also installed the seals, did a valve job, and built my bottom end. I have ~800 miles on the motor and have noticed that it very slightly smokes, but only after idling for 10+ minutes and then i rev the motor, or engine braking down long (1+ mile) downhills.

Otherwise under WOT, or even normal driving conditions around town it does not smoke at all.

I plan on proving this theory by pulling the intake and/or exhaust manifold to check for leakage, though the smoking is so minor I probably won't bother until the dead of winter. I'll update this thread at that time.

As a data point when I pulled the head for the rebuild, the old valve stem seals were clearly leaking, a lot. I'm now wondering if those should have been replaced as well.

The builder of my engine and head were well known shop that works with spec miatas, so I trust they did things correctly.

Another data point- I went with 949 viton seals two years ago as part of my rebuild and still no leaking or smoke.

Were your valve guides replaced?

Going to drop off my head to the machine shop this week and just wanted to confirm that the super miata VSS are the way to go right?

I used felpro when i changed them out and didn't notice any ill effects, but I have leaky valves and wanted to have the head refreshed and was hoping to go with the least leaky option which sounds like super miata at this time, yes?

I ordered the Kia Sephia ones from Kia. Same part numbers as Mazda, will keep you posted.

Any update on the Kia ones?

Supertech valve stem seals installed in early 2016 checking in- Leaks like crazy. Motor has about 1000 miles on it. Fun times.

Anyone use these Miataroadster Viton valve seals?
https://miataroadster.com/miataroads.../i-411995.aspx

I have a set of Mazda valve seals that came with the Mazda rebuild kit, but was wondering if these Miataroadster Viton seals are worth. After reading through this thread again, I am pretty sure I will just use the Mazda seals since I have them.

Mazda ones will be fine. I think i used felpro to replace the supertech seals and they work fine as well.

Incredible meme btw hahaha

It's the seals, st won't back them up.

Miatabob,

Thank god for that answer! He's been waiting four years for your reply... We can finally all move on.