Cooling Upgrades - which radiator? DD with future turbo
08-24-2018, 01:41 PM
#21
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago. (The less-murder part.)
Posts: 33,022
Total Cats: 6,589
Both fan shrouds had to be trimmed a bit to fit (it's obvious once they're laying in place,), and the condenser mount has to be moved slightly forward, for which hardware is included. The instructions cover this, and it's important to read them carefully, as I missed a step the first time around and was wondering why I had some rubbing. After I re-read the instructions, it worked perfectly.
Here's a photo of mine from just before I installed it back into the car. I've highlighted in red the cuts I made to the OEM fan shrouds.
Reply
1
1
08-24-2018, 08:25 PM
#23
Uh, no. Never made that explicit statement. If quoting me, I prefer cut/paste of actual stuff I wrote.
The Supermiata Crossflow (32mm) does just fine on street turbo cars with A/C. Where larger capacity cores help is in cars with inadequate ducting and airflow for stop and go driving. A larger core is bit of a band-aid in this scenario. Even with a huge 50-70mm crossflow, if you have bad ducting and venting, your car will overheat once moving. We have seen this and that's the reason we built our Crossflow to 32mm. When everything is right, you don't need band-aids. Bullet, running 30 minute w2w races at 400whp in 90° at 85% humidity never strayed above 210° clt with our Crossflow.
The Supermiata Crossflow (32mm) does just fine on street turbo cars with A/C. Where larger capacity cores help is in cars with inadequate ducting and airflow for stop and go driving. A larger core is bit of a band-aid in this scenario. Even with a huge 50-70mm crossflow, if you have bad ducting and venting, your car will overheat once moving. We have seen this and that's the reason we built our Crossflow to 32mm. When everything is right, you don't need band-aids. Bullet, running 30 minute w2w races at 400whp in 90° at 85% humidity never strayed above 210° clt with our Crossflow.
Running an SPM crossflow in Bullet, 220whp turbo. Stays below 200° even during races on warm days. William has one in his S1 and same results. The Crossflow is optimized for cars with good airflow, which Bullet has. If you have a 300whp turbo street car running pump gas with A/C, only OEM ducting, no hood vents or reroute, huge FMIC blocking the rad you need a mack truck sized rad to make up for the lack of airflow. In such a case its just thermal mass keeping your car from blowing up. A giant radiator cures many ills. The Crossflow is designed for a well setup cooling system, chopped up front end to increase airflow, lotsa hood vents, tight ducting to rad, FMIC set below or at bottom of rad, reroute, not too much antifreeze. In such a case, our high efficiency core works perfectly even with big power.
With an N/A build, it has enough spare capacity that airflow and ducting are less critical. Where high mass rads like the TSE shine is in less optimized systems like street cars with A/C and mostly stock front ends. Our Crossflow would not be happy in Acamas, Andrews 350whp pump gas burning street car with A/C and no hood vents.
With an N/A build, it has enough spare capacity that airflow and ducting are less critical. Where high mass rads like the TSE shine is in less optimized systems like street cars with A/C and mostly stock front ends. Our Crossflow would not be happy in Acamas, Andrews 350whp pump gas burning street car with A/C and no hood vents.
I got your back, fam.
Reply
9
9
08-24-2018, 08:41 PM
#24
FWIW, I ran a $90 ebay radiator for a whole year at 350 whp with AC and no ducting with ZERO overheating. I never saw more than 210* even at the drag strip running mid 11's at 121 mph.
Hell my race car runs the same rad with only the OEM bumper duct and no undertray and no reroute and I have never seen it hot either on track.
No reason to overthink this...
Hell my race car runs the same rad with only the OEM bumper duct and no undertray and no reroute and I have never seen it hot either on track.
No reason to overthink this...
Reply
0
0
08-24-2018, 09:35 PM
#27
Maybe I used the wrong term, but point is to focus on how much and how fast coolant is coming into contact with rad core and in turn, how much air mass is coming into contact with that core.
See more synonyms for conduction on Thesaurus.comnoun
conduction
[kuh n-duhk-shuh n]ExamplesWord OriginSee more synonyms for conduction on Thesaurus.comnoun
- the act of conducting, as of water through a pipe.
- Physics.
- the transfer of heat between two parts of a stationary system, caused by a temperature differencebetween the parts.
- transmission through a conductor.
- conductivity.
- Physiology. the carrying of sound waves, electrons, heat, or nerve impulses by a nerve or other tissue.
__________________
Reply
-1
-1
08-25-2018, 01:22 PM
#30
Senior Member
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 1,105
Total Cats: 229
Maybe I used the wrong term, but point is to focus on how much and how fast coolant is coming into contact with rad core and in turn, how much air mass is coming into contact with that core.
See more synonyms for conduction on Thesaurus.comnoun
conduction
[kuh n-duhk-shuh n]ExamplesWord OriginSee more synonyms for conduction on Thesaurus.comnoun
- the act of conducting, as of water through a pipe.
- Physics.
- the transfer of heat between two parts of a stationary system, caused by a temperature differencebetween the parts.
- transmission through a conductor.
- conductivity.
- Physiology. the carrying of sound waves, electrons, heat, or nerve impulses by a nerve or other tissue.
Although there is some conductive cooling, it is a much smaller percentage than that from convection in this system.
con·vec·tion
kənˈvekSH(ə)n/
noun
con·vec·tion
kənˈvekSH(ə)n/
noun
- the movement caused within a fluid by the tendency of hotter and therefore less dense material to rise, and colder, denser material to sink under the influence of gravity, which consequently results in transfer of heat.
Reply
0
0
08-25-2018, 01:44 PM
#31
OK fine. Let's get technical then. Forced convection is what we are talking about since the fluids (air and water) are being forced through the radiator (water pump for the water and a fan or vehicle movement for the air).
That said, at the point where the heat is being transferred from the water to the aluminum to the air, it's conduction. Surface area is what counts.
It's after the fact and I agree with OPs choice. I've got a Koyo Hyper on the turbo daily, and Emilio's crossflow on the track car. The big benefit of the Koyo is that it is completely plug-and-play and cools well. I got it before Emilio's crossflow was available.
But Emilio's crossflow is fantastic. I saw a 15-20 degree drop in on track temperatures vs. a Ron Davis (itself considered a decent radiator). It may even be better than that because I always end up at the thermostat temperature, so there is still excess cooling even when air temperatures exceed 100F. It's also nicely configured for a reroute hose. Only downside is minor fab required as Joe pointed out. Very minor.
Also, as OP discovered, the OEM temperature gauge lies on purpose. You can get up to 215 to 220 before it starts budging from the middle. This prevents warranty returns. If you ever see that gauge indicate hot, it means it!
That said, at the point where the heat is being transferred from the water to the aluminum to the air, it's conduction. Surface area is what counts.
It's after the fact and I agree with OPs choice. I've got a Koyo Hyper on the turbo daily, and Emilio's crossflow on the track car. The big benefit of the Koyo is that it is completely plug-and-play and cools well. I got it before Emilio's crossflow was available.
But Emilio's crossflow is fantastic. I saw a 15-20 degree drop in on track temperatures vs. a Ron Davis (itself considered a decent radiator). It may even be better than that because I always end up at the thermostat temperature, so there is still excess cooling even when air temperatures exceed 100F. It's also nicely configured for a reroute hose. Only downside is minor fab required as Joe pointed out. Very minor.
Also, as OP discovered, the OEM temperature gauge lies on purpose. You can get up to 215 to 220 before it starts budging from the middle. This prevents warranty returns. If you ever see that gauge indicate hot, it means it!
Reply
0
0
08-25-2018, 01:51 PM
#32
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 356
Total Cats: 93
Maybe I used the wrong term, but point is to focus on how much and how fast coolant is coming into contact with rad core and in turn, how much air mass is coming into contact with that core.
See more synonyms for conduction on Thesaurus.comnoun
conduction
[kuh n-duhk-shuh n]ExamplesWord OriginSee more synonyms for conduction on Thesaurus.comnoun
- the act of conducting, as of water through a pipe.
- Physics.
- the transfer of heat between two parts of a stationary system, caused by a temperature differencebetween the parts.
- transmission through a conductor.
- conductivity.
- Physiology. the carrying of sound waves, electrons, heat, or nerve impulses by a nerve or other tissue.
Reply
0
0
08-25-2018, 10:22 PM
#34
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 356
Total Cats: 93
You said it not me! (*inset We Didn't Start the Fire soundtrack*)
To cover my *** I'll start by saying that the, by far, most useful data in regards to application specific effectiveness is the empirical data you and Emilio so kindly provided. That being said, the ocd-elf inside me can't not mention the incorrect and/or ill-explained physics in your last post.
The only significant conductive heat transfer (HT) occurring in a radiator is in the path heat must take to go from the inner wall of the (most likely) aluminum tubes to the outer wall/fins (of the same tube). In terms of circuit analogs, the resistance to the transfer of heat in the conduction through the the relatively thin aluminum is many orders of magnitude less than the resistance to HT which is inherent in both the coolant-tube interaction and the tube-air interaction (although in most cases it is the tube-air HT which plays the limiting role in the cooling power of a radiator) for any given temperature delta. This is why everyone makes such a big deal out of construction type and presence of turbulators (or any feature designed to trip free-stream air flow into turbulent reynolds number regimes for enhanced convective HT).
All heat transfer scales with area (conduction, convection , or radiation), this is just how the physical phenomena are described from first principles (e.g. you need to solve surface integrals to find heat transfer of a 2D or 3D object). The important consideration is really, which HT surface area do I maximize? The answer to this question, give the relative heat capacity and density of water vs. air and thin film effects, is almost always the fins/tubes which allow for convective HT between radiator and air (and, if not, the answer is usually the other convective process between coolant and radiator)
Source:
this paper from 1930 about radiators Sci-Hub | Heat transfer in automobile radiators of the tubular type | 10.1016/0735-1933(85)90003-X
this paper on copper nanoparticle doped coolant in radiators Sci-Hub | Experimental Study of Heat Transfer of a Car Radiator with CuO/Ethylene Glycol-Water as a Coolant | 10.1080/01932691.2013.805301
2.5 degrees in mechanical engineering focused on a completely unrelated area.
To cover my *** I'll start by saying that the, by far, most useful data in regards to application specific effectiveness is the empirical data you and Emilio so kindly provided. That being said, the ocd-elf inside me can't not mention the incorrect and/or ill-explained physics in your last post.
The only significant conductive heat transfer (HT) occurring in a radiator is in the path heat must take to go from the inner wall of the (most likely) aluminum tubes to the outer wall/fins (of the same tube). In terms of circuit analogs, the resistance to the transfer of heat in the conduction through the the relatively thin aluminum is many orders of magnitude less than the resistance to HT which is inherent in both the coolant-tube interaction and the tube-air interaction (although in most cases it is the tube-air HT which plays the limiting role in the cooling power of a radiator) for any given temperature delta. This is why everyone makes such a big deal out of construction type and presence of turbulators (or any feature designed to trip free-stream air flow into turbulent reynolds number regimes for enhanced convective HT).
All heat transfer scales with area (conduction, convection , or radiation), this is just how the physical phenomena are described from first principles (e.g. you need to solve surface integrals to find heat transfer of a 2D or 3D object). The important consideration is really, which HT surface area do I maximize? The answer to this question, give the relative heat capacity and density of water vs. air and thin film effects, is almost always the fins/tubes which allow for convective HT between radiator and air (and, if not, the answer is usually the other convective process between coolant and radiator)
Source:
this paper from 1930 about radiators Sci-Hub | Heat transfer in automobile radiators of the tubular type | 10.1016/0735-1933(85)90003-X
this paper on copper nanoparticle doped coolant in radiators Sci-Hub | Experimental Study of Heat Transfer of a Car Radiator with CuO/Ethylene Glycol-Water as a Coolant | 10.1080/01932691.2013.805301
2.5 degrees in mechanical engineering focused on a completely unrelated area.
Reply
1
1
08-25-2018, 11:42 PM
#35
Newb
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 31
Total Cats: 0
Where do I buy the nanoparticle coolant?!?!?!
Also, nice explanation
as I read it I was thinking "huh this person definitely has at least 1 more mechanical engineering degree than me!"
Also, nice explanation
as I read it I was thinking "huh this person definitely has at least 1 more mechanical engineering degree than me!"
Reply
0
0
08-26-2018, 12:10 AM
#37
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 356
Total Cats: 93
Also be warned it's a little pricey: https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog...g=en®ion=US
Reply
0
0
