Harness bar
 

Where would you guys mount a harness bar to? I know i'm going to use the stock seat belt bolts, but was considering running a vertical brace to the floor on either side of the center console. I know some will say "get a rollbar" But i don't feel i need one right now because i'm not doing any sort of racing or precarious stunts. But without my airbag i don't feel as safe/secure around the other dumbass drivers out on the streets.

a harness without a roll bar will not help your safety concerns, it only makes matters worse in case of a roll over...
even though i have a roll bar, i still use the factory cock pit brace for my harness
let me know if you need one, i have an extra

i'm not worried about rolling over, i'm worried about dumb fucks running into the back/front/side of me. And looking down at the steering wheel and imagining a stamped section in the shape of my face is not appealing

the stock brace works very well as a harness bar IMO, its very sturdy

what brace?

the '94 and up seatbelt tower brace
good to know I can use it as a harness bar too :)

it connects the two seatbelt towers and its pretty thick and sturdy and runs just behind the seats exactly where you would want a harness bar to be...

ok.. just to clarify - driving with ANY kind of racing harness on street is way more dangerous then with 3-point seat belt. imagine that - you put a 4 point harness in and then drive your car into a wall at 40mph. guess what happens! yes, your entire body is moving forward and since harness doesnt stretch, your body will move underneath it and you WILL end up with some very very serious damage to your internals ;)

do NOT run racing harness on the street.

What about a 6pt??? Anti-sub belts

wait why run them on the track then?

As oppsed to a track enviroment? Rethink this

i personally run 4-point harness right now but only for one reason - to keep me in my seat on tight corners. i know for a fact that if i crash with this harness, i will most likely not survive (yes, im saving up for a proper race seat and 5-point harness)

3-point seatbelt will allow you to move your torso while race harness will keep you tight in your seat. think ;)

um 3 point harness has like a 3inch flap sewn together down in the bottom, how will this extra 3 inches save my life? Unless your talking about the upper part of the belt that rolls in the excess belt, that locks up under sudden deceleration. Can you explains some more?

Those 3 inches are for impacts hard enough to release the airbags.

Urbansoot is wrong

1. If you want harnesses, you must have a rollbar first. There is no fucking discussion allowed on this point; that's simply the way it is. If you roll your car wearing a 4, 5, or 6-point racing harness, and you don't have a rollbar, you will die. There is no "MABYE" you'll die, there is no degree of dead, you'll just fucking buy the farm and that will be it. If you don't feel "secure" without your airbag, then put it back in.

2. whaamx5, shut the fuck up about the goddamn cockpit brace. It's bolted down with two bolts, and the harnesses pull in the wrong direction, which means those bolts will just bend. Bolts are strong in the direction they apply force, not perpendicular to that direction. THE OEM COCKPIT BRACE IS NOT SAFE FOR USE AS A HARNESS BAR.

4-point harnesses are unsafe. As UrbanSoot said, you'll just submarine and fuck yourself up. Get 5 or 6-point belts, or wear the stock 3-point belts. The only exception to this is the Schroth ASM system, which loosens one of the shoulder straps in the event of a collision, effectively turning the system into a 3-point system.

God, what a clusterfuck of safety advice this thread is.

Harness + Roll Bar = :D

Harness - Roll Bar = :(

Either reinstall the airbag to get the warm fuzzy or buy the full package. I run a 6pt on the street, but it's accompanied by a roll bar and race seat. My stock belts are in a box in my garage.

With a stock 3 point, you are physically able to move and get away during an accident. If the car rolls, you can duck. In the case of a driver's door impact, you can lean toward the pass seat. May not save you, but may prevent some injury or death. If your car rolls and you are in a harness and don't have a rollbar, your head becomes the roll bar.

+1...
Stock belts or 5/6 pt...w/ a rollbar + harness or cage...etc etc.

thank you :)

ok i get why you think its not safe, but i have never seen an example of these bolts bent due to an accident, have you?? or are you just making shit up because you got sand in your vagina?
i mean, what you are saying makes sense, but those bolts look pretty beefy, i dont know if you have ever seen them or not, i just dont see them bending very easily...

Arent they the same bolts that hold the seat belts in place? I would be more worried of the bar yielding

no, they dont hold the seat bets, but they look bigger/thicker IIRC
anyways, i get what Savagina is saying and it makes sense, it was not engineered to withstand any kind of force front to back, i just never thought of that nor have i ever seen one fail...it makes me curious to know if indeed he is right, id hate to find out this is the case while chewing on my steering wheel after an accident

The test would be pretty destructive to the test car. The issue is that the brace was meant to take forces in the up and down direction as that part of the car flexed; apply a forward-back force and it all goes to hell. You could argue that the bolts are pretty beefy, sure, but would you trust your life to that assumption? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I wouldn't ride passenger in a car with harnesses wrapped around it, and if I were teching a car at an HPDE, I'd tell the owner to run his OEM 3-point belts or not run at all. That bar wasn't designed to take the loading forces of a set of safety belts.

Do not use the cockpit brace as a mounting point for the harness. The cockpit brace is just a length of metal flatstock covered in rubber. It's not designed to take the force of a harness on it during an impact. It'll probably bend or pull those 2 bolts right out. The HD harness bar I run is bolted in 4 places, not 2, and is DOM tubing. That cockpit brace lets go, your in for big trouble. Your face and torso is worth the $100 to get the right piece.

i understand, and it makes sense, i just never thought of it...it is only a temporary solution
i was considering welding a cross tube on my roll bar, any ideas of how thick i should go?

1.5" DOM will be fine. Pretty sure that's what HD uses.

My harness bar on my HDHC is, I believe, 1.75"x.120

If i was welding in the harness bar and I had a 1.75" bar like the HDHC i would use 1.75" DOM for the harness bar. If I had a sport model with 1.5 I would use 1.5. If i was building a bolt in harness bar I would use 1.5".

i was thinking closer to 2", and to everyone who was bitchin bout the 4 pt. i never said anything about a 4 pt., i would likely run a 6pt. I don't think I'll do much ducking/rolling if i had a 3 pt in anyway, i highly doubt i'm strong enough to overcome the G's of a rolling/flipping car. Besides I'm gonna make a rollbar for the car eventually anyways

Yeah, I bent a factory seatbelt brace pulling on it.. I would NOT trust my life to that piece! They make harness bars for our cars roll bars for a reason, if you're not going to use proper safety equipment then use the factory installed stuff.

Reminds me of the honda owner who secured his 4 point harness shoulder straps to the rear seat belt buckle...



Read last post: http://www.solsticeforum.com/forum/f42/4-point-21909/

fourwhls = LBJay ??

You've just been told that running harnesses without a rollbar in an open car is a lot like signing your own death warrant, and you're still going to do it anyway?

w/e. Have fun dying.

As an FYI - Hard Dog makes a harness bar that attaches the same way as the cockpit brace...except it has two extra bolts running in from the side. A roll bar is not required for this bar...not saying it isnt a good idea though.

Same said bar is also significantly larger than the cockpit brace is.. specifically designed for harness attachment.

Yes indeed. its rather stout, I owned one.

Some sanctioning bodies may not allow harnesses without a rollbar. I know NASA keeps an eye on that stuff, the events I've attended anyway.

and do you really think i'd fair much better if my head was skidding across the pavement with a 3pt. vs 6pt.? as already stated i would never be able to pull my head down in a rolling car anyways. And don't worry about the cockpit brace, i don't have one :td:

would there be a safety difference between having a separate bolted harness bar and welding a horizontal bar onto my future roll bar?

You wouldn't have to fight it depend on which way you were rolling. I’d rather have a chance of being able to get out of the way rather than no chance at all. You would be surprised what a human can do when the adrenaline get's pumping. You are getting some good advice here take heed.

Don't use any harness without a true roll bar.. it's simple really and makes good sense.

If you do decide to go with a harness and no roll bar please keep a camera running i'd like your skull pop like a squished M&M if you ever roll over. Make sure you put in your will that you want the video posted on youtube so other ricers won't make the same mistake.


KTHNXBYE

probably not, i plan on welding something to my roll bar

once again you damned hippies, i don't care if i have enough adrenaline to do cock push-ups the human body is only capable of doing so much :hustler:

whaaamx5, i'm pretty sure bolts would be safe enough, considering i may even buy my own roll-bar. I am pretty certain that i don't have to worry about :doh: if that were the case how would wheel studs work?

it's more like, pavement pushing down your head, pushing your body down, as opposed to 6pt where you can't get pushed out of the belt, and therefore --> pavement still pushing on your head, but neck getting 4" shorter when body doesn't move.

Depending on the pavement/head-pushing, it may not matter, hence the need for a rollbar :)

You're talking about totally different forces.
At dead stop at 60mph, you will have a kinetic energy of something like 27000 joule (aka. nm), thats 19900 lbf. (assuming you are around 165 pounds).

How much torque do tour car have? ;)

I run a 3" Simpson harness in a sparco seat with a nutstrap. Make sure and get the 6-point or you'll smash your nuts from time to time. I welded in a harness bar on my roll bar, because I'm fucking ganxter, and I'll cut your ass.

what i mean is that since bolts aren't supposed to support an amount of force in a horizontal direction (in the eyes of some members), then woudln't wheel studs be stressed horizontally under sudden acceleration/decleration to the point of shearing since they are not designed to withstand such forces? I'm not saying a bolt would not shear if pushed too hard horizontally, i am saying that savington has a misunderstanding of how a rod of metal works

Anyone want to see why you should have a roll bar on your miata, racing or not? You wouldn't believe how easy it really is to roll a small short wheel base car.. I watched with my own eyes a Ford tempo get t-boned at an intersection low speed, like maybe 30mph clipped.. The tempo spun 180 degrees, hit a curb, then rolled onto its roof.

Say you're driving down the highway and swerve to miss a deer, lose control of the car on pavement a good hard sideways slide can flip a car. Run off the road to miss something in the road, same thing could happen from a sideways slide with enough momentum.

Here I offer a youtube video of an NA miata rollover test. This test shows what happens when a car tumbling lands on its side upset, then FALLS with NO momentum, ONLY GRAVITY onto its top. The A-Pillars crush and you can see a dummy arm is crushed by the top of the door.



This isn't a typical violent rollover from what I've seen.. Just a good example of what'd happen if your car went from sitting on its side, to sitting on its roof.

cool vid. so where is your roll bar, lol

Yeah. With the 3-point, when the ground hits your head, your head moves as your body collapses inwards. With a 6-point, your head hits the ground, and you fucking die. This is not a difficult concept to grasp, and if you can't do it, mabye you shouldn't be tackling such a major part of your build without some professional assistance.

So long as you have a rollbar in both instances, and as long as the harness bar is properly attached, there is virtually no difference.

As far as wheel studs vs. cockpit brace goes, think about the forces. All a wheel stud has to do is transfer a force; it transfers the force of the tire being pummeled upwards into the suspension and into the car. The cockpit brace isn't transferring any force anywhere; the car is rigid, and so the bolts end up taking all the strain. This is why a car's drivetrain can be very reliable when it's just driving around on the street, but suddenly destroy itself at a drag strip; suddenly, the forces aren't being simply passed along (into wheelspin).

well when you brake heavily the weight of the car shifts forward making the car "feel" heavier, this force is also coupled with the force of the deceleration because the brake pads are stopping the rotors which are stopping the wheel studs which are stopping the wheels stopping the car. So all the momentum is therefore transferred to pressure being applied horizontally on those studs :bigtu: I'll admit attaching harnesses to the rear brace is not a good idea, but i doubt it would be the bolts that failed you :nono: Thx for the info on the harness bar you's guys, i'll just weld a horizontal support onto my rollbar when i make one

Does anyone know if there is a good harness solution for the Boss Frog double hoop? They told me to wrap the harness around the bottom bars, but they are at an angle and I think that would allow for movement.

I'd rather not have to get something welded on it, but I suppose if I have to I have to.

aren't you allowed to wrap it around vertical bars for track use?

From the NASA handbook:
I've read that people trying to attach their harness like Bossfrog shows on their website (to the vertical) have not passed tech for Nasa. That might be at the disgression of the inspector. Either way, i won't attach them any way but with a dedicated harness bar.

Still in raw stock at Boss Frog cause my bank account won't support it. :mad::fawk:

Thats the next purchase, trust me. Its always been VERY high on my list of priorities, but I drive the car like Never anyway.. Always broken or snowing around here. :)

If you have a 4 point harness and roll bar, you are just like this kid. I mean, what is he going to do if he rolls that thing with his 4 point harness on?

edit: sorry if i revived an old thread for a retarded reason.

Haha well I got a laugh out of it.

Pedal cars for kids that are worth as much as 1.6 FTW!!:gtfo:

looks better