Harness questions
 

I have a set of Schroth Rallye Cross harnesses in my sights, and was wondering who here is running a harness in their car, and how they have them mounted. I have stock seats and a double hoop roll bar, and would have a harness bar mounted across the seatbelt towers when the time comes. I can see perfectly how to mount them inboard, but the outer mounting location looks a bit tricky. Not enough room between the seat and the seatbelt adaptor and roll bar itself. I guess it could be mounted directly on the roll bar, but that area is diagonal and a bit too far away from the seat, and looks like it would pull the belt off your shoulder in an accident. How are you guys mounting harnesses? I feel its kind of pointless running roll bars with stock belts, turning the car into a scalping machine if I do roll it.

Get some racing seats.

why, won't stock seats work just as well?

I'd prefer the shoulder and hipguides for a harness on a raceseat over the stock seat where the harness might not stay in the right place.

They have holes for the harnesses to go through instead of going around the side of the seat, plus they're so much nicer for holding you while driving.

i have the same harnesses in my car, the shoulder portions are wrapped onto the harness bar and the belt sections are bolted to my seat bracket, though with a harness i'd recommend a seat

Well seats arent an option since I just spent $600 on leather to cover them like 2 months ago. I know racing seats are better, but I know people run harnesses and stock seats. Im still not seeing how to mount the outer shoulder sections since you cant really route them to the harness bar without rubbing against the roll bar, belt tower or seat. Very tight area.

This is a daily driver, another reason I dont want race seats. Thats why I like the Rallye Cross harness, it looks more livable for daily driving. No fancy 5 point cam lock shit to deal with, just a single lap belt buckle.

and on that note, particularly if you track the car, you want your helmeted head to be below a line running from the top of the windshield frame to the top of the rollbar, i.e. the "broomstick test". That's the main reason people get racing seats, so they can sit lower than stock.

This car probably wont see any track duty, thats what my new Miata project will be focused on. I may take it to some autox every now and then. My unhelmeted head sits about 2''-3'' below the imaginary line, so probably above it slightly with a helmet on. Im 6' and I added about an inch of foam to the seats, so yeah... not great for tracking, but I dont plan on it.

I love my stock seats now that they are shaved, the difference is night and day. I will probably be running harnesses without racing seats as well. I remember seeing some info somewhere that the harnesses can be wrapped around the harness bar/roll bar and taken down to the rear seat bolts if the angles permiss.

I'm using a Hard Dog Hard Core (Hardtop Version) with Willans 6-points (T-sub, not V...)

I have the shoulder belts mounted to the crossbar on the rollbar, the hip belts attached to the stock seatbelt lower mount points and drilled/installed 8.8 1/4-in eyebolts (with washers and rubber bushings) between the seat rails for mounting the T-subs. - Even with stock seats, I'm not going *anywhere* when belted in...

- L

Any of you guys have pictures of the installs? Im still just not seeing a good way to mount the outer shoulder belt. There is a tube from the roll bar right there, but it seems a bit too far to the outside, and angled so that it would slip off your shoulder. Dont the mounting points ideally need to be straight behind and maybe slightly to the center (for stock seats anyway) as to help hold the shoulder belts against the seat and over your shoulders? Wouldnt be an issue if I had the seats with adjustable headrests.

You aren't seeing a good way to mount the outer belt because there isn't one. You need to order racing seats if you want to use harnesses. Get a Kirkey or something and just install it when you go to autocrosses.

edit: 4-point harness? Throw it away. A Mini driver was killed last year at Big Willow when he submarined under his 4-points. 4-point harnesses are JUNK.

Maybe Im just better off with stock belts then. Im not getting seats and I dont want a 5 (or 6) point harness to daily drive. I'll just have to try and keep it on all 4 wheels.

I may cave in and get seats later down the road and use my existing seats in another car, at which point I will get a set of actual harnesses. But I dont see this car ever becoming much more than a fun daily driver. Ive done too much I would have to undo, or redo to make it a good autocross car. I'll ponder this for a few days.

3-point belts are a fantastic blend of practicality and safety. If you want more holding power, get a CG lock.

The only 4-point belt I would recommend is the Schroth ASM, and you won't want to pay for it.

EDIT:

Yes, Im now looking hard at the Schroth 3 and 4 point "ASM". Pretty much the same as the Rallye, just with the shoulder belts with 1 mounting location, which would work better with factory seats.

The stock seat frame deforms in an accident. It's not strong enough to be used with a harness at all, IMO.

Well, seat strength in question, I would still feel safer in a roll over accident with some type of harness over the factory restraints.

The problem is that perception and reality aren't always the same. If you want to keep your head away from the rollbar, you need to get a larger headrest which requires a racing seat. Stock seats and harnesses just don't mix.

Well, honestly though, its likely if Im going to be in an accident that is bad enough to kill me, Im going to be doing something stupid like going too fast on the interstate on my way home from work at 2am with no traffic, and have a blowout or something. So its likely the harness wouldnt help me anyway. If a harness will make me feel more secure like a security blanket, thats good enough for me. I still like my chances with a harness and stock seats over stock belts and stock seats. At least the harness will hold me in the car better and will be less likely to be ejected in a rollover and crushed.

The Hard Dog rollbar I'm using has a horizontal bar running the width of the interior. The Willans harnesses come with a clip designed to "butterfly" the individual straps so that they don't seperate.

That being said, if you're going to use a harness, 5- or 6-point.

I won't debate the pros/cons of the factory seats...

- L

The danger isn't in roll overs, its head on collisions, where you're going to go under the harness, hence the submarine belt. I ran a G-force 6pt harness with a stock seat without the 5th point attached for one or two track days and it is probably the most stupid and dangerous thing I've done. I looped the line around the harness bar and put both shoulder straps up and around the seat. the outboard one is a very tight fit, and every once and a while the buckle would catch on the seat, and during the first hard braking the force of my body pulling forward would snap it free and suddenly my left shoulder would have an inch of extra slack. VERY DANGEROUS, DON'T DO IT. See my recent thread for pictures of racing seat install, best $75 I've ever spent, plus its gorgeous, comfortable and of course safe.

If you race it, use harnesses and race seats. If not, don't use either.

lets not forget the stock seat belt is the only thing you can use if you want your car to remain street legal. And its designed to work with the airbag, which I think i saw you still have.

Im still trying to get my priorities for this car straight. Im not sure if Im going to stick with this one as the daily, or make this one a track car and swap over my nicer parts, and engine into another clean Miata for a daily. Once I find another good deal on a clean NA, I will take this engine (and turbo soon) and put it into the new car, and take that engine and build it to put into this one for a track car. So maybe I will wait till then, and swap out these stock seats for racing seats and a harness. Like I said, Im still not completely sure on which path I'll take with this car. A few small issues make me want to make it into a race car, and find another to daily.

Looking back to my seats, If I had to do it again I would have just bought race seats. Not sure why looking back I went with the recovering route... seems stupid now. Could have gotten new seats cheaper, and wouldnt have had to spend 10+ hours per seat... another learning experiance I guess.

post a feeler in some classifieds. You ought to be able to get a very good deal from people who also don't want to spend 10 hours per seat to make them look that good.

Just keep in mind that after that, you should buy two FIA certified racing seats and 5/6 pt harnesses, and it won't be street legal. Then of course you'll be starting down an expensive (albeit amazingly fun) path that will make your car more and more uncomfortable for longer trips and more and more track only orientated.

Yeah. Im really liking Sparco TEC seats. A bit more than I would want to spend, but they look like they would be comfortable for a FIA cert seat. FM doesnt list them in their list for fitting, but they are smaller than the Evo all around, so I dont see why not. Then throw a Schroth 5 or 6 point on and Im good to go. While a race seat isnt "street legal", I dont think I would have any issues around here, since we dont have any inspections, nor do cops ever seem to care about modifications to cars.

Then again, I may not worry about FIA certified, and just get a good aftermarket "racing seat" and go with it.

To inform a noob, are there ties with FIA certified and harnesses? Can you not run a harness on a non certified seat for scca events? I know stock seats and stock restraints are good for most cases, but I think perhaps stock seats and aftermarket restraints are a no no?

They probably will want both to be FIA certified, whether or not they'll check is another question. What about the momo start or sparco sprint? Right around $350 unless you find one on sale, and comfortable. Isn't the one you mentioned like $700?

Nah, its about $450, so a bit more, but I like the looks of it more than either the Start or Sprint. Ive still got time to decide, this will be taken care of after the turbo.

Thanks for all the help everyone. Im a seat and harness noob.

Sav, what harness do you use? I just picked a Momo start and am looking for a harness and rails now.
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Not bad, although other latch-link belts are cheaper and still FIA certified. I think the G-force harness I have is the cheapest camlock, which is really nice to have, the latch-link system, although it can disengage just as quickly as a camlock, takes a lot longer to clip in when you first get in. G-force's 6pt camlock is only $155 from saferacer.com, you could probably look else where and find slightly better.

If you're not driving on a road course, like a man, then you don't need a harness.

/thread

I wish I could get a run on Barber, its only about 3/4 mile down the road from my house, yet Ive never been...

I guess I am done with this thread. I'll just stay with the factory seats and belts in this car. My next car will for sure get racing seats and harnesses though, since it will be a stripped out "race car". How much track duty it sees depends on how much of a pussy I am (or how much work fucks me out of it).

I have Willans 6-point belts. Just grab the cheapest camlock FIA belts you can find.