Head to Head: NB1 vs. NB2, giving the best head
08-07-2017, 03:13 PM
#22
These are all very interesting statements to describe someone that has a full FM setup, racing beat sways, 949 endlinks, a brain built ms3x, diy billies with helper springs, a setrab oil cooler and coolant reroute... (last two waiting to go on). But yeah. Said foolish OP is a cheapass and doesn't spend money. A dreamer, one could say... I'm actually quite amused at how much disdain you have for me given that in a noob that didn't do things in a completely *** backwards fashion.
In any event, it appears that there really aren't any good A/B tests on this matter that quantify things. A lot of folks have data with the vvt on full retard but that's not an apt comparison. I recall Soviet having done this last comparison.
The intake manifold shouldn't really matter here. A head swap should still technically show a similar percent of gains in the regions of interest even with a worse flowing intake. VVT can account for that somewhat... Though obviously nothing beats breaking down the variables.
Tldr: You're wrong, but you can keep talking out of your *** because it seems to be one thing you're damn good at.
No offense 18PSI, you know it's true.
In any event, it appears that there really aren't any good A/B tests on this matter that quantify things. A lot of folks have data with the vvt on full retard but that's not an apt comparison. I recall Soviet having done this last comparison.
The intake manifold shouldn't really matter here. A head swap should still technically show a similar percent of gains in the regions of interest even with a worse flowing intake. VVT can account for that somewhat... Though obviously nothing beats breaking down the variables.
Tldr: You're wrong, but you can keep talking out of your *** because it seems to be one thing you're damn good at.
No offense 18PSI, you know it's true.
There are plots showing very decent A/B testing. None of them are going to be perfect or in the exact manner that you're looking for (same everything aside from head).
The intake manifold matters here. A lot. Again, testing has proven this. In fact at least 2 of the well known companies that support this very site have posted some very helpful plots. As well as a few members. Put the VTCS mani on a 4W and you kill the one thing it's good at.
I'm talking out of my ***? Because I refuse to spoonfeed you information and encourage others to do likewise?
PS: I added that PS later because I thought we were still pretending to be cool, my mistake. Keep making stupid lazy threads, you're good at it.
Last edited by 18psi; 08-07-2017 at 03:26 PM.
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08-07-2017, 03:28 PM
#23
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Intake manifolds don't matter in so much as pre post tests should be comparable if the only change is in the head. Ie the changes should be consistent.
Pay attention.
Your knowledge about miatas is only surpassed by your inability to admit that you're wrong about something or someone. I called you lot out earlier for being disrespectful and rude and hold to it. You're entitled to be a disrespectful dick and internet tough guy. I lose no sleep over such things. I'm also the opposite of cocky, but again that's something you know nothing about. This site and its many members have been incredibly helpful to me with something that i knew nothing about when I started and still have a lot left to learn about. I'm grateful to this community of mostly strangers that choose to help one another, but I am nothing but respectful here. I expect others to extend me the same courtesy. If that's too much for you to handle then I suggest you take your bravado elsewhere. You're legitimately putting yourself on this pedestal when no one has questioned your knowledge. For someone do adamant about not wasting their time on me, you have a bizarre way of showing it.
Insofar as I can tell, you've added nothing of substance to this thread. If you can't contribute anything of value, I suggest refraining from posting here instead of keeping up with your childish ad hominem attacks.
And hell, is still buy you a beer if we ever hung out. And I'd even make sure it wasn't an IPA.
Pay attention.
Your knowledge about miatas is only surpassed by your inability to admit that you're wrong about something or someone. I called you lot out earlier for being disrespectful and rude and hold to it. You're entitled to be a disrespectful dick and internet tough guy. I lose no sleep over such things. I'm also the opposite of cocky, but again that's something you know nothing about. This site and its many members have been incredibly helpful to me with something that i knew nothing about when I started and still have a lot left to learn about. I'm grateful to this community of mostly strangers that choose to help one another, but I am nothing but respectful here. I expect others to extend me the same courtesy. If that's too much for you to handle then I suggest you take your bravado elsewhere. You're legitimately putting yourself on this pedestal when no one has questioned your knowledge. For someone do adamant about not wasting their time on me, you have a bizarre way of showing it.
Insofar as I can tell, you've added nothing of substance to this thread. If you can't contribute anything of value, I suggest refraining from posting here instead of keeping up with your childish ad hominem attacks.
And hell, is still buy you a beer if we ever hung out. And I'd even make sure it wasn't an IPA.
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08-07-2017, 04:40 PM
#27
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It's important to show reasonable restraint when calling moderators dicks. Sometimes they don't react favorably to it.
Sigh. The fervor of the youthful spirit is often undaunted by temperance.
Sigh. The fervor of the youthful spirit is often undaunted by temperance.
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project major hater-ERRR
08-08-2017, 01:31 PM
#35
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Here's why I'm always so skeptical when he makes these pointless threads: he's cheap. there aint even a remote chance he's gonna spend money on a vvt head, or any headwork, or any other stuff, because the gain-per-dollar ratio would be real bad for his setup. This is a theory thread. Dreamer thread. Aka waste of everyone's time. Aka he didn't even consider it worthwhile to do the basic searching and even cherry pick the low hanging fruit of information for this type of discussion.
Carry on
PS: no offense RTC, but you know it's true.
Carry on
PS: no offense RTC, but you know it's true.
I would not classify this a dreamer thread, as much as exploring the actual "gain per dollar ratio" of an NB1 head vs NB2 head. Its not unusual that someone asks something on this forum with very little intention of actually following through, unless they've seen a clear and powerful description on how well their money will be spent.
One of my first threads, I was getting roasted for being too cheap to get an MS3X and instead wanting a DIYPNP. I was ready (although did not have the intention) of getting an MS3X, until I had seen the benefits of it. Unfortunately I didn't get the feeling that it was worth the extra expense, and I got stuck with a DIYPNP (which is more than good enough for my needs right now).
Once I got to play with RTC's MS3X and experienced first-hand the increased tune ability of his ECU vs mine, I was convinced that the MS3X was worth it.
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08-08-2017, 01:35 PM
#36
To throw a bone to entice you back in after your time out: The heads flow near-as-makes-no-difference same CFM.
It's the VVT system itself that makes the difference, and realistically apples to apples, will only do so in the lower and midrange, depending on what you define "midrange" as.
It's the VVT system itself that makes the difference, and realistically apples to apples, will only do so in the lower and midrange, depending on what you define "midrange" as.
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08-08-2017, 01:35 PM
#37
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...e3/#post851414
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=442913
More intake manifold stuff.
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=442913
More intake manifold stuff.
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08-08-2017, 01:41 PM
#38
To throw a bone to entice you back in after your time out: The heads flow near-as-makes-no-difference same CFM.
It's the VVT system itself that makes the difference, and realistically apples to apples, will only do so in the lower and midrange, depending on what you define "midrange" as.
It's the VVT system itself that makes the difference, and realistically apples to apples, will only do so in the lower and midrange, depending on what you define "midrange" as.
I don't think its cheapness, its justification.
I would not classify this a dreamer thread, as much as exploring the actual "gain per dollar ratio" of an NB1 head vs NB2 head. Its not unusual that someone asks something on this forum with very little intention of actually following through, unless they've seen a clear and powerful description on how well their money will be spent.
One of my first threads, I was getting roasted for being too cheap to get an MS3X and instead wanting a DIYPNP. I was ready (although did not have the intention) of getting an MS3X, until I had seen the benefits of it. Unfortunately I didn't get the feeling that it was worth the extra expense, and I got stuck with a DIYPNP (which is more than good enough for my needs right now).
Once I got to play with RTC's MS3X and experienced first-hand the increased tune ability of his ECU vs mine, I was convinced that the MS3X was worth it.
I would not classify this a dreamer thread, as much as exploring the actual "gain per dollar ratio" of an NB1 head vs NB2 head. Its not unusual that someone asks something on this forum with very little intention of actually following through, unless they've seen a clear and powerful description on how well their money will be spent.
One of my first threads, I was getting roasted for being too cheap to get an MS3X and instead wanting a DIYPNP. I was ready (although did not have the intention) of getting an MS3X, until I had seen the benefits of it. Unfortunately I didn't get the feeling that it was worth the extra expense, and I got stuck with a DIYPNP (which is more than good enough for my needs right now).
Once I got to play with RTC's MS3X and experienced first-hand the increased tune ability of his ECU vs mine, I was convinced that the MS3X was worth it.
Be careful, you might give off the impression that we're good people over here.
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08-08-2017, 03:31 PM
#39
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You forgot the HUGE thread on this very forum about the VTCS and VICS debate.
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...antness-85172/
I will also add in my own experience with this as well. The VVT head and the '99-'00 casting of the ports etc. are very similar. The difference is with the VVT and the intake cam. The VVT intake cam is MUCH more aggressive and the VVT control allows you to take advantage of that cam and advance and retard the cam to make the most of the available torque. I have run three different intake manifolds on my track car, a VTCS manifold, a VICS manifold and now run a Flat Top manifold. The intake manifold makes a HUGE difference. When I switched from the VTCS manifold to the VICS manifold I gained 14whp at 7,000, now this power increase over the VTCS started around 6,000rmps and carried all the way to redline. Since my car is a dedicated track car, the 2-5 ft/lb below 6,000 that I lost was acceptable. I will say that this 2-5ft/lb loss is also well within the noise of what a dyno will register. What I mean by that is that I have seen this kind of a swing in power from just unstrapping and restrapping a car on the dyno. I saw a 3-5whp gain going from the VICS to a Flat top as well.
On my current '99 daily Miata, I have a VVT motor and flat top intake manifold. If my new motor did not come with the flat top, I would be using a VICS manifold. The VTCS manifold is worst manifold for N/A power on a VVT head from all the testing I have done.
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...antness-85172/
I will also add in my own experience with this as well. The VVT head and the '99-'00 casting of the ports etc. are very similar. The difference is with the VVT and the intake cam. The VVT intake cam is MUCH more aggressive and the VVT control allows you to take advantage of that cam and advance and retard the cam to make the most of the available torque. I have run three different intake manifolds on my track car, a VTCS manifold, a VICS manifold and now run a Flat Top manifold. The intake manifold makes a HUGE difference. When I switched from the VTCS manifold to the VICS manifold I gained 14whp at 7,000, now this power increase over the VTCS started around 6,000rmps and carried all the way to redline. Since my car is a dedicated track car, the 2-5 ft/lb below 6,000 that I lost was acceptable. I will say that this 2-5ft/lb loss is also well within the noise of what a dyno will register. What I mean by that is that I have seen this kind of a swing in power from just unstrapping and restrapping a car on the dyno. I saw a 3-5whp gain going from the VICS to a Flat top as well.
On my current '99 daily Miata, I have a VVT motor and flat top intake manifold. If my new motor did not come with the flat top, I would be using a VICS manifold. The VTCS manifold is worst manifold for N/A power on a VVT head from all the testing I have done.
Last edited by MX5RACER; 08-08-2017 at 04:10 PM.
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