I think that I'm going to quit auto-x
 

Too much time spent for too little driving. I've been meaning to try some track days. I didn't do the event this weekend as the Pro Solo National Tour was in Lincoln this weekend and couldn't see spending $120 on twelve 35-second runs but I did go out to watch for a couple of hours today.

It was cool with the dragr race start and the christmast tree, plus the mirrored course, but two full days for six minutes of driving?

So I came home and told my wife that I think I'm going to stop doing it and do track days instead. She didn't know what track days were so I described the sessions, how much time you get, no real schedule, come and go as you want, no course working. After I explained it she said, "sounds like a no-brainer." Looks like I have got it made without having to sell it or rationalize it. It's not the money (she didn't even ask about the cost) but the time. I can't expect to be gone a couple weekends for auto x and then a track day so I will drop the former for the latter.

I'm stoked, though.

i've always wanted to get into auto-x but just can't bring myself to enjoy the time vs driving ratio. i always feel like i wasted a day and got a sunburn and didn't get to drive.

track days are definitely more fun in my experience. You get a lot of time in the car and you only need to focus on your driving. plus you can still get ride-alongs in other people's sessions. and those are invaluable. nothing like a ride in keith@FM's seven to make you think your car is fat and slow and get a first hand look at what the tire looks like as kisses the rumble strips.

we used to go up the night before (3 hr drive) and stay at a super 8 and be fresh in the morning.

to answer the other thread's price question, they are all over the place. depends on the track. I've seen them for under 100 for a day and some for closer to 400 for a day.

Cheapest I've had is $90 for a day, four 30 minute sessions. Usually I pay around $160-$180, although $200 days are becoming more and more common. Luckily I'm close enough to PIR to not have to stay at a hotel the night before, but I'm pushing my luck driving my car to each event, I already had to leave it there when the diff blew last time.

Whats with the "no schedule" comment? I guess I usually do HPDE days, where you have four groups, running four 25-30 minute sessions, and you're on a pretty strict schedule. If a car blows up spewing oil everywhere at the end of the 2nd group's session, and it takes a half hour to clean it up, group 3 looses a session, and beats up the dude from group 2. I suppose everyone's track is different though.

I've never understood Auto-X'ing though. I know those cars can be wicked fast in the small corners, but like y8s said, the time vs. driving ratio is just way out of wack. Cooling becomes a much bigger problem when you're racing for 30 minutes though. Keep an eye on your coolant gauge, and don't be ashamed to take a lap or two easy to cool off the engine, it does wonders. Also if you can't seem to stay cool, blast your heater if it's not 100 degrees outside, that helps the engine keep cool too.

yeah all the ones I go to are session based. you get 3-4 sessions depending on the oil spill guy and other factors.

oh and dont discount the increased cost of brake parts and tires. the dedicated set of trackslut DOT slicks goes a long way to saving your street tires. and improving your lap times.

I should explain. When I say no schedule, it is because there are usually only 20-30 or so cars, two run groups, 20 minutes per session so even on the 1pm to 7 pm half day there are 18 sessions, you get 9, so it isn't a big deal to miss a session. There is just going to be another in 40 minutes. An all day track day here gets you fifteen 20 minute sessions. No biggie to skip a session or two - it's still plenty of drive time.

I was just talking to one of the locals today that does a lot of them. He said that he can get me however many 430 slicks that I need for $40-80 each. The $80 ones are almost full tread and the $40 ones are good for a full trackday for him. He said I may get 2 days due to my lighter weight. So, even if it's one full day for $160, that isn't bad.

Local Cincy SCCA often only allows for 4 runs and the courses are all less than 60 seconds in an average car. Depends on how many people show up and how long it takes to get a solid course layed out. They just upped the price to, I think it's $40 now, and yeah, you have to work the heat you're not driving in. They also enforce a "no sitting rule" while being a corner worker. So not only do you bake to death in the heat of an open asphalt lot, but you can't even get off your feet.

There aren't many options for track days within reasonable distance... but Bluegrass Motorsports park is just opening and I'm thinking about making the switch to full track days myself.

Even if you compare the costs equally, track days still come out way cheaper.

Estimate 6 minutes drive time for $40 at local SCCA (then working for roughly 2-3 hours) vs. 90-120 minutes drive time for ~$200 then beer.

I stopped autocrossing with the Houston Region SCCA earlier this year due to there complete incompetence and an unwilling nature of the Region to implement changes to help eliminate the never ending cycle of timing delays and issues that they were having.

Doesn't help either when you have personality conflicts with the morons working grid while you are running, talk about unprofessional dumbasses (and the sad thing is, they have been doing these races much longer then I have).

I had withdraws the first month I missed a race, now I really couldn't give less of a fuck about ever doing it again.
What is really funny about it, is that I really can't for the life of me see how I justified PAYING SOMEONE to give me the "privilege" of working my ass off then getting about 4 minutes of seat time in exchange... What the hell was I smoking? :facepalm:

The current plan is to hit a few track events later this year.

I've been thinking about quitting myself here in the last year, mostly because I don't have the time for it mostly anymore. All you guys just sold me on it.

Once a month Heartland Park has been doing "Road Warriors" where its 4 20 minute sessions with 2 different groups on the course, just a mini-HPDE type setup. They started that in 2005 and the cost was something like $45, but last I heard it was closer to 80$ and might even be less time. Still no idea if they're even doing it again this year. Keep my fingers crossed, I Guess..

Pisses me off though, they wouldn't let us run my friends SPEC car.. Its a "Street Event' and they don't allow 'race cars.' Morons.

I stopped autox for the same reason, too much $ and too little seat time plus all the standing around for most of the day. I guess I'm lucky the local track has $80 trackdays and $50 time attack track days. If there are no open wheel cars then its full open track from 9 to 5. You learn to be a better driver at speed and actually get to shift too. I had to upgrade my car to handle the 20+ minute sessions with better cooling and better brakes.

Holy cow that's a lot of track time, why haven't you quit auto crossing yet? I thought my 4x25 minutes for $165 was a good deal, that's an amazing deal! What's the track?

Yeah I think I'm done.

Here's the track:

Mid America Motorplex. Main Section.

Fast Fridays FTW

Mid America Motorplex. Main Section.

Glad i'm just getting started and still enjoying myself in autox. Its fun coming home with trophies every time. I just cant afford full on manly track days now that i'm an unemployed student. Perhaps i'll be able to make one next year but I still have to take an advanced driving course before they'll let me on pacific raceways.

The local autox is alright I suppose. Paying 40 bucks to work all day and get 6, 1:20 sessions sucks pretty bad, you guys are right. But like I said i'm still new to competitive driving so i'm still having a geart time.

I started doing HPDE's and track days a few years ago and I don't miss auto-x one bit. HPDE's are such a better bang for your buck seat time wise.

I've been to MAM a few times and will be back this summer with the Mustang Club of Central Iowa. Their track weekend is a great deal, like $280ish for two days, and on Sunday you basically get unlimited track time. Usually Sunday after the morning session they just drop a green flag because most people are packing up, so you can run for as long as you want. It's July 18-19. I know it's a mustang club but they're a good group of people and it's fun to whoop up on the pony cars. There's a pretty varied group of cars that come, not just all mustangs. More info = http://www.mustangclubofcentraliowa....flyer_2009.pdf

Anyways, MAM is a pretty fun course despite the zero elevation change. It's definitely a good track to learn on.

Go for it, auto-x blows in comparison.

same here. Went to my first autox on saturday and was there from 7 am till 5 pm and only got to go drive five times and each was only a minute long. And i got really really bad sun burn. I am really considering doing track days.

I bought the Miata with the intent of running mostly HPDEs because they're just way more fun than cones in a parking lot. More seat time per dollar.

However, some autox events will give you better value than others. A couple weekends ago I ran both the morning and afternoon sessions with a local club and got 20 runs for $56. With the average run around 45 seconds, that's 15 minutes of seat time which is a shitload for an autox. Plus it was good to dust the cobwebs off my car handling skills after being mostly dormant since November. I can't really do more than about 3 or 4 HPDE weekends in a year so an occasional autox in the mix keeps me from getting too bored.

if you get on a real track you'll make more testosterone and be more fertile.

IDK, 40 bones for 4 plus minutes of seat time(if you are lucky enough to have 10 runs, not likely), coupled with being there all day, helping, and cleanup just doesn't sound like a good deal or fun to me.

I did a mix last year and had fun. Talladega Grand Prix, Roebling Road and Atlanta Motor Speedway are within 1.5 hrs of me. I've already hit up TGP and Road A multiple times...trying to get to Roebling though. TGP days range from $140-190 for a week day and a little over $200 for a weekend event... but it all depends on who is organizing the event and how many cars they want to try to show up. Road Atlanta has a lot of activity, but those events are usually $300+..... but you get a 2-day weekend event out of it (Chin, Porsche club, NASA). The SCCA PDX is $100 for two 30-minute sessions. Unfortunatly, the fuckers at the BMWCCA won't allow 'verts on the track for any of their events...asshats.

o far this year i've run all the auto-x events because it'll be my first year ever trying all the events. I did like 4 last year just to see if I would even be competitive in SSM (was SM2). Well, with 4 events under the belt this year, i'm first overall in points for SSM :D . I probably won't do any Nats though... not as long as the Streilnick's are out there...they royally fuck up the PAX for SSM when they show up. I know there isn't much seat time with auto-x, but it's against a clock and in a class....and I like a challenge, esp. when me and the guy in the Vette with 315's all the way around who has been doing this for 20 yrs are battleing for class with .2 second being swapped back and forth for first place....at every event.

That is the one plus I've seen of Autocross over trackdays. It's much easier to get into "professional" racing. No need for a cage or a lot of the other safety items you'd need to do a similar timed event on a full road course. Once you start doing those, the dollar/seat time ratio drops to autocross levels.

FWIW, the BMWCCA no convertible rule is due to their insurance policy. I agree it seems dumb, especially when they won't even allow a full cage spec miata to run, but the rules are the rules, and I'm sure they don't want to lose insurance coverage just to let some non-bimmers play.

I always get an email before bmw track days about insurance, obviously for the more expensive cars that are worth it. Does anyone here actually insure their car for track days?

Do you guys worry about wrecking your car on the track? I'd like to do HPDE stuff but I worry about totaling it and eating it with no insurance help.

Good decision - once you do a track day, it's hard to go back to autocrossing. I started racing when I lived in Nashville - entry fees were $20 and we got 8-10 runs (usually only between 50 and 100 cars each event). Now I live in Atlanta - entry fees are $30 and we only get four runs (closer to 200 cars each event). It's still fun, it's just a long day for a little seat time.

If I ever get mildly rich, I'm going to buy a big piece of land in the country and make my own track. All you guys are invited!

I only have liability on mine anyway and I think the chance of totalling it is higher on the road with the morons out there. Whenever my vehicles drop below $10K I drop the collision. It's just too expensive for what you stand to recover. At least on the track, I'd assume most people are pretty diligent with their driving.

Hell yeah I worry about it, but I do it anyway and try not to wad it up. You know the saying... don't drive it on track if you can't afford to drive it off a cliff. That's why I bought a Miata. Of course it would really suck if I totaled it, but it would not ruin me financially, assuming my resulting medical bills weren't too bad that is. :ugh2:

You also have to recognize what tracks and where on track you can really push it, and where you should go less than 10/10. At VIR, there's lots of runoff and it's nice and smooth so you're somewhat less likely to hit a wall or roll over compared to other tracks. At Summit Shenandoah if you go off, barring an incredible save, you will hit wall, and it may or may not have tires in front of it to protect you from the concrete. So I don't drive 10/10 there.

You need to push yourself to get better, but there's no HPDE national championship either. A lot of wrecks happen because people run out of talent trying to keep up with the car in front of them, or worrying about the car behind them. You'll be a lot less likely to wreck your car if you accept the fact that it's not a race and keep your balls in your pants. It also helps to keep reminding yourself how much it would suck if you wrecked your car.

I haven't felt the need to purchase HPDE insurance for my car yet, but once I add a turbo there will be more speed involved, and more time and money invested into the car, so I'll probably consider it. True, the drivers at HPDEs are far less likely to wreck your car for you compared to the average street driver, but mechanical failures are more likely to happen on track than they are on your daily commute, and certain failures (brakes for example) have a high likelihood of parking you in a tire wall. The policies are based on stated/agreed value and for a $10K car it's like $75 for a weekend last I looked.

+1 ^^^

No need to push the car and your talent level beyond the capable limits.
Pass in passing zones only
If a car is on your ass it is faster than you, let it pass
If your are on someones ass you are faster than them. Give them room so they don't freak and do something stupid that will involve you. Pass them when you get to the passing zone and get waived to go by.

Those points alone should keep you out of trouble for the most part.

I used to do track days more but got back into autocrossing. Track days are fun, but can get so costly. Time to track ratio is good when you just have the track fee, but add in 2 nights hotel, gas and groceries, beer and all the little stuff and it adds up to a 400-600 track session. Of course this is because there arent any tracks really close to me other than a Private facility, but MSR Houston and Cresson are a few hours out, Hallett is 8 hours out etc.

I try to get an early shift for the Autox like the morning gate worker or paddock and I'm done working my shift before the vent even starts. Last event I was there, worked my shift and gone at 10:30am.

I started in autocross, and I'm glad I had the opportunity to build my driving skills there. All of the fundamentals can be demonstrated, practiced and honed on autocrosses. I also had the opportunity to drive a season in an A-Mod car. That was the hardest work with the biggest adrenalin payout I have ever had while driving. I loved it, but still couldn't get past the drive time/time spent at the event ratio. It also really cemented the need to keep your eyes up, if you weren't two turns ahead, you were already behind...

Having totalled a track car, I fully understand the dilemma about fun vs. potential for damage. My track car was a toy, as my Miata is. I can afford to lose the car, and will have something to get me to work in case of that happening. If you cannot accept these things, you will be playing with fire. Don't do that.

Driving is a perfect foil for the job I have, and I enjoy it immensely. As such, I make it my business to be able to afford what it takes to do it safely and without threat to my daily life.

I read the flyer. Rollbar required FTL. Looks like I'm out on that event. I know, I know, I should have one but I doubt I will, for sure not by July.

Fast Fridays and FindTheLine events don't require it.

Honestly, I could afford to throw away $9000 into a wall but I definitely DON'T WANT TO.

Has anyone here successfully submitted and been paid on an HPDE claim?

I don't mean to be a dick, no one wants to throw away a car, but if you're that worried about it, maybe at this time in your life, other sports beckon.

Coming from the sportbike community...questions like this always make me think someone is about to purposely down their bike after they put more money than they had into mods.

I'm sure you're not like that, but if you have to worry about it that much, then you're just worrying too much.

Ben- Yah, I guess I shouldn't worry about it. I forgot that in kindergarten they taught me that money is just a illusory concept of the fractional reserve banking system and I can just give people this little piece of plastic called a VISA and get almost anything I want without having to pay for it. I forgot that if I want another car all I have to do is sign a few papers zero down and even get free floormats. And if I eff up and can't make my monthly payments the government will cancel my debt no worries! USA! USA! USA!

BTW no, I'm not considering totaling my car for insurance payout but I know that with some types of insurance it can be very difficult to actually collect payments from underwriters due to the commonality of fraudulent claims.

I've always disliked working the course, but up here in Boston the BMW CCA does a really good job of getting you the max seat time per day. I've always run 6-8 times per day and the courses are over a minute long. Only $35 too

It isn't just the entrance fee that is a lot higher, track days eat tires and brakes at a very high rate.

You sir are a true American hero.



Damnit I promised myself I wouldn't cry. But it's soo beautiful.

I think the key is to find a club or clubs that give you enough runs to make it worthwhile. You need to find cars and drivers in the club that you can benchmark yourself against so you can get better and better every time you go. Where else can you drive 10/10's and be timed? There's nothing subjective about autocross, it's all in the clock. And that time shagging cones is when you get to watch others and figure out what they're doing that makes them fast.

We're lucky in New England to have Devens which gives us 1.5 to 2.0 minute courses with all the clubs around here offering 6-10 runs. The Renegade Miata Club which also gives you fun runs at the end.

-- Rich

I HEART Deven's! Those courses rival track days...well not really but they are good.

Do you run with BMW CCA or just Renegade's? I'll be there on the 24th with CCA, but I've got a real tough decision. I was going to go with the E30 over my M3, but now that my wife and I got the Miata I want to run that! :)

I run with both clubs, though I missed the first BMWCCA and won't be at the second. Tough choices on the cars, I'd go with the BMW for BMWCCA and the Miata for Renegade ;) You'll have plenty of cars to compare against in each club. Have you classified yourself in the BMWCCA? In Renegade it's simple, stock street tires, stock races tires, street prepared and street & mod. Within each of those classes you apply a PAX.

But forget all that, just go out there and see what you can do. Send me a PM and I'll give you my e-mail and we can talk further.

I've never run with Renegade's. I run in B class with the E30 (fully gutted, suspension, etc) and the M3 although I've run in AR a few times with the E30 when I run Hoosiers.

I started out doing track days. I have done a couple autoX now but with a good club. The PCA in my area sets up 45-60 second courses in general. You get maybe 10-12 runs in either in the morning or afternoon. If you run morning you chase cones for the afternoon. For $35 it's a fun day.

Can't imaging getting only a handful of 30 second runs in. That would absolutely suck. SCCA autox just isn't any fun in my book.

HPDE gets the nod from me but autox with a good club can be a fun day occasionally.

I always love this discussion...

Autox is CHEAP and EASY on the car, from an absolute dollars stand point.

When folks start realizing 'I could be running for 4 10 minute sessions for just 4 times the money, and no work!' it SOUNDS great...

But then the 'incidentals' start adding up.

New set of front brake pads and rotors after a 'sprinted' weekend of HPDE
$300 - $500 depending on what you buy
oil change.
extra wear and tear on the transmission
going through 30-40% of the tires on the car for the weekend (say a new set costs you $400, depending on the size and make) thats another $200 for the weekend.
gas

lets not even count food, hotel, or anything else like that.

So by the time you factor in ALL the extra expenses, your ACTUAL expenses are north of $1200 for ~ 120 minutes of seat time...

which works out to about $10 a minute...

autox = 4 to 5 minutes of seat time for $25 + gas + a little tire wear works out to about $8 per minute...

My point is, don't use money to justify what you want to do. HPDEs are a blast, but they require more dollars, and more prep, and they do wear on the car a bit more, owning to the higher speeds and more seat time.

I enjoy both, about equally well, but thats because I have my expectations for autox. I don't expect it to be about dollars per minutes in the seat, I expect it to be a very short term spurt of action, followed by some very specific introspection on my overall driving technique, with a little bit of friendly competition thrown in to make it 'interesting'.

And only takes up half my day, so I can get other things done.

HPDE is for when I want to spend my ENTIRE weekend doing 'car stuff'. For when I want to figure out, by rote memorization the best way around a very specific and static set of corners, and I want to see what the car does when the limits are moved out a bit further.

its also very satisfying to pass the 'mouth' in drivers meeting in a car with half his horsepower and tire.... <GRIN>

Interesting observations. I've never done HPDE and I've been autocrossing for 5 years. One thing I don't understand about HPDE is that there is NO timing (in fact, it's forbidden, from what I understand). Other than the excitement of driving at high speed, there's no way of knowing how you did and how you improve and compare with others -- am I missing something?

imagine getting to hit the same 7 -12 turns 40-60 times...

and maybe twice the speed of an autox...

BTW,
there is nothing stopping you from timing yourself, or having your pit crew time you, but the event isn't going to time you, because then it would be a 'race' and not driving instruction.

Most folks do video, which is probably going to be more helpful to improve your technique, because you can see how you hit turn 5, 10 different times.

ah, and I've been doing autox on and off pretty steady since 1997... :)

Flores, I don't know if your comments were directed at me, but if you read my post, I don't care about the money, I care about the time invested. Of course I know costs are higher. I could care less about that part. It's just killing an entire day for so little return.

In fact, if they did auto x here like I have heard of in other places, I'd do it. They double the cost to $60 and hire course workers. No working, no waiting until there are enough workers on the course, less people at the event because they bitch about the $60, more runs. I'd do that.

My comments were general, and hopefully no one thinks I'm condemning either sport. They are both fun, but the bottom line for most folks is going to be the actual dollar amount they have to spend to participate.

:brain:

I don't know what you're driving but a set of front rotors and race pads costs about $160 for an NA miata, which should last you more than one weekend (depends on driver and HP). I've had a set of RS-2's on the car for about 11 track days (5 weekends) and they still have some tread, they are getting a little long in the tooth though. Definitely not wearing 30-40% of the tire off in one weekend though.

I agree there's more wear costs doing HPDE's but I'm definitely not spending $10/min. My last track weekend was more like $5/min and that included everything, new pads and rotors, sharing a tow vehicle and hotel room, food, etc.

Personally I think track days and HPDE's are a far better deal than Auto-x's but everyone should try them both and find out which fits their wants/desires better.

I know of at least one person who was reimbursed after totaling a 350Z during an HPDE.

I look at my car as a $2000 shell with $X,000 in parts bolted to it. $2k is what it would cost me to get a straight, clean non-running black NA shell, and then it would be the labor of swapping my parts over. If I wad it up, it really isn't a big deal.