New car with some problems!
 

I just picked up my first miata and also my first experience on anything other than a honda. I wasn't planning on buying one quite yet but I found this one for 750 bucks, 1990 5spd 1.6 with all the options. It was repainted black but looks to have originally been blue or teal, with a dark almost navy blue interior. Its in pretty rough shape, but my goal is eventually to rework the whole car so, the current condition doesn't bother me. The owner said it blew a headgasket and it wouldn't run. I haven't tried starting the car up, I picked it up with the plugs already removed and I can see a light layer of fluids sitting in cylinder #2 and #3. So the obvious is it needs a new head gasket, I'm also assuming the head will need to be surfaced again. I started trying to tackle pulling the head off and quit thinking maybe I should do some research or ask a few questions before I waste too much time. My searches have landed me a lot of useful knowledge but not much on what I'm looking to find out. Am I correct to assume that I can just remove the Intake manifold and exhaust manifold(and down pipe obviously) from the head and set them aside and pull the head off? I tried loosening the timing belt tensioners but they really didn;t want to budge at all so I'll have to give that another shot. I also removed the electrical plugs on the firewall side of the head for the cylinder sensor and a few other things.

Am I missing anything important? or am I thinking on the right track?

Also, should I worry about the bottom end? What should I do to clear all of the mixed up oil out? drain it all and refill it with new fluids, run it and repeat?

Just looking for some knowledgeable advice. I don't like to run too far on my own assumptions of how things work. Its pretty weird working on a motor mounted backwards!;)

I also noticed numbers written on the valve cover in grease pen? Would this maybe mean it has a new motor put in it? Is there anyway to check if the motor is original to the car? Or if it is even a 1.6 and not a 1.8? I have no clue about the history of this car but its been around for quite awhile and who knows whats been done to it.

Thanks

It's usually easier to just pull the engine and transmission out of the car as a complete assembly to work on it. Replace the front and rear main seals, rear CAS seal, might as well replace the clutch and bearing, clean off the years of grease and dirt, and then put it back in. And you don't need to remove the intake manifold to do the head gasket, just make sure the sensors are disconnected.

1.6 has indented letters on the cam cover, and the cam sensor is on the passenger side. 1.8 has raised letters and cam sensor is on the drivers side. To pull the head, you will need to get that belt off of course, pull the plugs and the heater line off the back (careful not to mess up the copper heater core lines that come out of the firewall.

Cover up the oil ports please when you pull that thing.

You're exactly on the right track. Don't forget you might want to drain the coolant and unplug the battery before you get started. You'll be working in close proximity to the alternator.

The exhaust manifold comes off without a hitch, except at that age, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND YOU LET EVERY NUT/BOLT YOU INTEND TO REMOVE SOAK IN PB-BLASTER or LIQUID WRENCH OVERNIGHT, INCLUDING THE BOLTS AT THE MIDPIPE!

The intake manifold is similarly easy. There are zero tricks or "gotcha's". There is an intake manifold brace under the IM that secures it to the block... no need to re-install that when you remove it. It was severe over-engineering by Mazda and is completely unnecessary. Some of the intake manifold nuts are a little hard to get to. Experimentation with an array of extensions/swivels will get you in the right direction.

Check these threads from when I did mine:
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t14714/
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t14979/

If you've got oil mixed with coolant and vice-versa, you'll need to drain the fluids. If you're paranoid about it, just fill back up with water and the cheapest gas-station oil you can find. Drive for a couple days, and then change fluids again with the good stuff. If it's freezing where you are, then obviously plain water won't work.

The block is iron, and it'd have to be severly overheated to warp. It would be a mistake not to have the head planed flat as a precaution... as you can see in my linked threads, I failed bad there.

Additionally, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!
Since I was so awesome to hook you up with some old threads, please FILL IN YOUR PROFILE WITH YOUR LOCATION, and PUT SOMETHING IN YOUR SIGNATURE, LIKE THE YEAR/MODEL/MODS OF YOUR MIATA.

Additionally, WELCOME TO MIATAS!
Don't forget before tackling any routing/standard maintenance to consult the The MX-5 Miata Pit Stop: MX-5 Miata.net GARAGE. Just go to the website and CLICK the link for the garage on the left-side of the main page. You'll want the ENGINE/DRIVETRAIN section for this one... but while you're there, check out the rest of the AWESOME writeups and how-to's others have done.

Thanks alot guys. Those threads were really useful. I've pulled and rebuilt a couple honda motors in my short years and the miata seems to be a little more user friendly its just different.

I'm hoping to get this thing in running shape here soon so I can figure out what else is wrong haha

I've got lots of body work to pay attention to and I'm really itching to get rid of some stuff under the hood. No need for wiper fluid or cruise control or any of that ugly junk! It's gonna need new fenders, finish panel, tail lights, and a new top. The plan is to widebody it, build a 1.8 and turbo the snot out of it!

Thanks for the help guy's I'll put up some pictures once I think its presentable.

Well, I pulled the head off. Removed the old gasket material, checked the head with a straightedge, it looked pretty straight so I just tried putting a new gasket on to see what would happen. Long story short, It wont start haha. I marked the timing belt positions and the teeth are where they originally were, so I'm assuming thats correct but even if the marked teeth are matching could it still be off? I dumped all the fluids replaced them, put new plug wires on, new spark plugs, added a little fresh gas. Fuel pump is pumping, plugs aren't fauled. Oil is staying oil and coolant is staying coolant. I'm kinda at a stand still. The only thing I can think of is maybe the timing belt isn't lined up correctly. Without removing the TB pulley is it possible to get the engine to TDC and check the marks on the cam pulleys from there?

Anything else that would stalling it? Its turning but not even trying to start. I can't get out of the car and try starting it to listen for injectors clicking but I'm assuming they are doing fine.

The car didn't have plugs or wires when i bought it so, Who knows if it would have started from day one, so I don't know if I'm at a preexisiting problem or a new one.

Help?

Thanks!

If it is the '90 engine, you can get the timing belt cog visible to check its' position without removing the timing belt, but you will need to remove all the front covers all the way down. The Miata.net timing belt writeup will give you the positions of the gears in relation to each other and the belt.

I would go the next step, however, and remove the bottom t/b cog to check the keyway and crankshaft, do the locktight fix if needed, and replace the main bolt either way.

PS make yourself a nice new "hi I'm new" thread in the Meet and Greet section.

If my belt was on the teeth I marked, is it still possible to be off?

The car has sat for some time, is it possible the coil packs are fried? How can I tell if my igition system is working correctly?

I know I can listen for injectors and etc but I have no clue about the igition system.

I am trying to make a check list of things to check before I start poking around again.

No more help until you fill in your signature and profile info.

People here can be butt holes..... You off to a good start.... But just to make everyone happy please go to your profile and state your car Profile info to keep the notzi's off.

And just for giggles make a quick meet and great thread.

CHECK TIMING MARKS AND GAS.......THE GAS MAY BE BAD

Find the fuel supply line, un hook it and run the line into a clear liter bottle, have a buddy start it. This will let you see what quality of gas you have. It bet you have bad gas......The new gas doesn't last like the old gas. It will go bad quick. And if that car has been setting. I bet the gas is bad.

First I would remove your timing belt covers and check the timming marks. The car was not running when you bought it, The dummy probably didn't know what he was doing or he would have fixed it himself and got a extra $1200. So I would think he had the marks off.

There are marks on the cam gears you line up, and a mark on the crank pully you line up. It is so simple.

Check fuses,,.......... Then if it doesn't start.........Ground the #1 wire and spark plug to a valvecover bolt. Have a buddy try to start it. It should spark. The try the #2 plug & wire and see if it sparks. That way you check both coils.

I bet you are just a tooth or so off. Becareful when you tighten the tensioner. It is common for the belt to move enough to make it a tooth off.

If you are lined up and have spark. It may be fuel. (Or bad fuel!!!!!) Spray starter fluid into the breather and try to start it. If it start than you have a fuel issue.

after all is checked. Last thing to look at if all is good..........
Keep in mind, these car's are notorius for the ignition to cause starting problems. So don't keep whirling the motor just quick start and shut off, start and shut of over and over and it will usually sart on one of them.

My 90 one would actually do better with jumper cables hooked to kit. Weird huh. Yea it was changed fast. problem fixed. ( I doubt this is your problem. CHECK FACTORY TIMING MARKS AND SPRAY STARTER FLUID IN BREATHER)

Check the timing! This will tell you first off if the coil is sending juice to the plugs, and will give you a good idea if the timing belt was replaced properly. If everything checks out, I'd check the fuel pressure - the fuel lines are easy to get to.

I'll try all of that, Its possible the fuel is bad. I did turn the key on and off a good 5 or 6 times before even trying to turn it over to rebuild fuel pressure and maybe push out any air. I have a strong sneaky feeling its the belt. I'm just a little burned out from doing a full tear down and rebuild the last 2 nights working all day then starting on the car at 6p, to aboue 1 or 2 am for the last week!

I'll probably just pull the TB back off and put the crank on its mark then the cams on theirs and install it as if I was doing a new belt. Then see what happens and go through the other tests you guys have mentioned.

Sorry about the profile and sig stuff. I thought I had done the profile a few days ago but I guess not. I've been a wee bit on the busy side.

Thanks for all the help, I'll check back for any other suggestions and report the news after I give it another go!

Sounds good.

I would still unhook the fuel line first, And spray starter fluid in the breather and try to start it.
It might save you ALOT work.

Remember when you try to start the car the afm has to be hooked up, you can't have the tube unhooked. It won't start if it is unhooked.

Good Luck!

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...0/IMG00068.jpg
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...0/IMG00069.jpg
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http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...0/IMG00074.jpg

So, just some pictures of the tear down. I checked over the whole car again, checked for ignition, that was good. Fuel i was still a little questionable on, tried the starter fluid thing, that was a negative. Then when checking around I moved the wire harness for the Airflow meter and heard the fuel pump cut on pretty strong and let go and it stopped. Then remembered a friend was trying to take the airbox off and had somehow decided it was a good idea to unscrew the afm's plug from the box and I found out today in the process of doing that he yanked all the connections lose from the circuit board. So I redid them, hopefully correct. Still wouldnt start. I also noticed after pulling the plugs there was a little pool of fuel sitting on top of the cylinders. So I left the plugs out and valve cover off for the night hoping that fuel will evaporate out.

In the pictures I tried to show the belt marks as best as possible. Where I think I really screwed up was, I marked the teeth, and sure enough replaced the belt on those teeth, but I remember now when i put the belt on the markings were placed on the most centered tooth on both cam, and when i reinstalled the cams they were not centered. So my cams are as you can see lined up together pretty well, but they are off my memory a good 5 or more teeth off from the original position on the crank.

Could I get the motor back to TDC by judging when the pistons are actually at TDC? Or should I just quit thinking lazy and just pull the crank pulley and line up the crank at its mark and then set the cams in the right place?

It is best to find the mark. But if you have a long screwdriver, or long extension, you could turn the motor back and forth at top dead center, and find the exact top dead center......

Then look at your cam marks.

Are you using new plugs? Teh old ones may be fouled with water and oil too!

Yup, New NGK Vpower plugs, and new NGK plug wires. New oil and filter, just used straight water for the cooling for now, which probably is a bad idea now that I think about it if I need to be watching for headgasket leakage. Though, once the car does finally start I'm going to run it a short bit and then change all the fluids and when I dump the oil, any coolant or water should jet out first anyway so.

I think TDC is cylinders 1 and 4 at the top correct? I do have several long screw drivers and I've done this with a honda before. It worked but it was a little bit of a trick to make sure you have it hold and stay exactly at the very top. I may try it that way first. Its much more of a relief for me to know this motor wont bend valves if I'm off on the TB.

Yep #1.

Good Luck!

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LOL yep there is nothing as sexy as a grown man in a Prizm. LOL.


Some dude at the drag strip had one hooked up though. I was running 10psi and only pulled 3 1/2 car lengths in the 1/8th mile. He was white smoking tires and all.
I wounder if he had nos?

Its only sexy if you are driving a champagne colored one. Any other color and the effect is gone.

The 2001 and up Prizm is a toyota corolla with a different radio haha
The corolla of that generation shares the celica motor pretty much. Atleast that is my understanding. With a 5 speed the cars can be pretty quick, I haven't seen one boosted though, that would be pretty wild. I'm pimpin the 3 speed automatic :jerkit:


Thanks for the help, hopefully we'll see some results here in the next couple days..

lesson learned...Friends don't let Friends touch your miata, and timing belts don't play games.

Well, my screwdriver technique didnt work so well. It started up instantly, a lot of chatter from the valve train, lots of white smoke that smelled certainly like gas. I'm sure some of that is the pools of fuel sitting on the cylinders. The other part is im sure I'm still a tooth off. Tomorrow I'll pull the pulley off and set it to the marks and get it done right. Today was just a test to see will it indeed start. Only took an hour to redo the belt and fire it up today so, no biggy. It didnt seem to be mixing any fluids so I'm hoping the gasket holds. It holds a good idle on its own. Motor was a little jumpy at about 650rpms but I'm sure thats more a timing problem than anything. I'll probably idle it until running temp tomorrow then dump the fluids again and redo the timing belt(maybe replace it to hell why not?!) The valvetrain was very chattery and loud. I'm hoping it was getting oil well, the oil gauge(which i assume isnt every accurate?) showed good oil pressure, a little above halfway. I putted it around the parking lot of the shop, surprisingly ran okay minus the noise of the head and the leaking downpipe on the exhaust. Clutch seemed good and shifted gears just fine.

Long story short, It was pretty relieving to see this thing run. Seeing as I saved the car from being burried in a guys backyard covered in mud and grasses and got it knowing only it had a blown headgasket and wouldn't run. Hopefully I'll be able to report back by the end of the weekend that its runnin in tip top shape and ready for the goodies to add up!

It would be nice to check. I doubt it is off if it is running. But I guess the exaust could be a tooth off.

Anyway, that lifter knock is normal for first start up after a long waiting period. They are hydrolic. Run some slick 50 if the knock doesn't go away. It will lube them up.

But it is not uncommon for the lifters to tap everytime you start it, the oil has to pump up into them. My tap first thing in the mornings alot. But it stops. A friends car taps at idle, he has been driving it for months.


Take it easy on it for a little while and let the rings re-set in. That is if it sat for a good while.

Good Luck. Sounds Great!

It was 2 teeth off on the crankgear. Now knowing their is a mark that I can see without pulling the accessory pulleys off, I have it all lined up and good, also put new radiator upper and lower hoses on, and new heater hoses, new radiator cap, changed the oil again, then the super cool part. I changed the thermostat..And this happened by some mystery dumb luck.
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...0/IMG00077.jpg
http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/e...0/IMG00078.jpg

It threaded fine, got tight halfway down, half a turn later pop goes the housing! I just quit at that point after testing to see how bad it leaked(bad). Can that even be replaced? I mean, It looks like its attached to the head itself? which would be dumb but to my quick uneducated glance thats how it looks? Help?

That said, the motor ran much better, still a little shaky, but all that valve noise went away, sounded pretty good. Drove it around the parking lot again, and it felt much much better. Its still putting out a lot of smoke, if it wasnt for the coolant leaking from the housing I would have filled it up with gas and drove it around and home to see if any of that smoke would burn off. I'm still not 100 sure the headgasket its holding, I guess I could do a compression test to find out. The exhaust smoke is very white and still smells a lot like gas, it doesnt have that coolant smell to it so I guess thats a good sign.

I'm more concerned about that thermostat housing right now. Any Ideas?

that piece that broke is the thermostat housing neck. It presses into the cylinder head. You should be able to replace it without pulling the head. Perfect time to do a coolant reroute if I might suggest.

Well I did a ghetto fix on the thermostat housing, I just used a long bolt with a thick washer on the neck side and just clamped the shit out of that side. It drips a little but holds okay. I let the car idle away for a while and it wouldnt over heat, but also wouldnt stop smoking. So I'm pretty sure the headgasket didnt hold. Before I go as far as pulling the head again I'll do a compression test but I'm pretty sure thats still the problem, this time I'll get it machined and use a metal gasket.

The smoke is white and smells like gas, the oil and coolant dont seem to be mixing but they both smell like gas which is weird?

Gasket failure symptoms? I don't know

My last car I pulled out of someones driveway. I emptied out the old gas, and filled it with fresh. It smoked for over 20 minutes. You need to get that gas out of there. It sounds like it is varnished. I realize it could be the gasket too. But I know my last car smoked like a chimmney for a while.
I wouldn't hotrod it yet, Just incase the rings are reseating.

Unhook the fuel return and run that hose over the fenderwell and into a gas can. Start the car and let the overflow gas go into that can. Then fill it with fresh gas and it will still smoke for a long while getting the old gas coating off the inside of the lines.

Or atleast that has been my experiance with vehicles that have been setting up a long time.

Hope this helps. If the car is running, and you don't want to get the old gas out( which I would definately do). Don't put anyfresh gas in there, drive it almost empty, and then fill it. Or else just put a gallon or 2 in it.
And either way put a full bottle of GUMOUT in it. That stuff works wounders.
I always put it in the motorcycles that I buy that have gummed up carbs. I clean the carbs and get them running, and then add some of that stuff. It works wounders!
I use it over any of the other stuff. Some people scream seafoam, but two guys on here said they had a fire with it.LOL

And gum out is like $3.

Good Luck! hope the gasket isn't leaking.

white is coolant, blue is oil, what color is gas again? could you post a video or even picture of the exhaust smoke you're describing? Check for oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil, that would indicate a head gasket failure. if you're getting oil or coolant in the combustion chamber (causing the smoke) it would be very significant. Like plumbs of smoke and your thread title would have more "!!!!!!!!!111OMG!!!!!!!!!111" in it.

\

Diagnose a problem before trying to "fix it". Cause if the HG isn't the problem, changing it probably won't fix it. ;)

The coolant and oil seem to not be mixing. The coolant and oil smell like gas.
The exhaust smells like gas, I can get a video of the exhaust smoke up a little later. It doesnt smoke too bad at idle, but it really smokes under throttle. I put new gas in the car, but pulling out of the shop to go to the gas station 2 seconds down the road the car ran itself out of gas pulling into the gas station. It started back, but there is so little gas in the tank, turning was enough to kill the car. So I'm pretty sure I've got rid of that old gas. I added some STP fuel system cleaner I had sitting around for kicks. No clue how well it works or at all. I talked to my machine shop guy and he said the headgasket could be leaking combustion into the cars fluid but not quite leaking enough to show much oil and coolant mixing. I havn't hot rodded it at all, just idled and blipped the throttle a couple times and ran it back and forth from the gas station. It stumbles at idle but runs pretty well, has plenty of get up and go.

I may just go ahead and pull the head and let it get machined. Its a 6 hour turn around and 60 bucks and it'll make me sleep better at night.

Or you could diagnose the problem. For example, do a compression test. This will tell you if there's a major problem with the head gasket. NOTE: It's easier/faster/cheaper to do compression test than to change a headgasket.

Or you could do a leakdown test. This is the best, as it will not only tell you if there's a problem, but where it is, as well as the severity of said problem. For example, you may find that you have 11% leakdown on cylinder two, and you see bubbles coming out of the radiator. Or, perhaps cylinder 4 has 33% leak down and you can hear air rushing out of the crankcase by removing the oil cap on the valve cover and listening.

Or you could rent a cooling system pressure tester kit from autozone and use it to pressurize the cooling system to check for leaks. If you had a blown head gasket that was leaking trace amounts of coolant into the cylinders, this test would allow you to diagnose that problem down the the affected cylinder.

There's no need in "chasing" a problem that you don't know exist. Search here for a guy named "NA6C-guy". He has a thread where he's pulled the head and changed the gasket, collectively, four times. Still never fixed his problem either.

I will probably do some tests before I do any tearing apart. I'm pretty sure the gasket is leaking, I'd still like to test and see where the leaks are before I tear it apart. With a car with this many little problems its easy to get lost chancing problems that aren't there.

I still want to try running the car for a while maybe just letting it idle at 1,500rpm for a long time to see if any of that smoke will start to go away or not. It hasnt gotten any better or worse yet but its maybe had 15 to 20 minutes of run time since I've had it.

I pulled the head again, I just had a feeling the head needed some attention if I ever expected to sort this motor out. I took it to a machine shop, they tested for cracks and leaks blah blah..but basicly the head was pretty intensely warped. The machine shop guy said if I warp the head again its junk, he had to machine that much out to flush it all up again. I got the head back, and the surface just looks so much better, and if thats what it should look like, I must have been crazy to think it would have ever held before warped or not!

I'll have another gasket tomorrow, and I'll have it all thrown back together and see where we are at. I'm hoping for the best but I'm expecting to see an improvement, this time I doubt I'll screw up the timing again.

before
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after
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My half done valve cover slaying
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Excuse the pictures, long day and camera phone

Well no news yet as to if the headgasket is holding. The motor started up with a pretty nasty knock coming from one certain area of the valvetrain, I could put my ear right over the valve cover and hear it so I assumed a sticking lifter considering it didnt go away at all. Upon tearing everything down again, I found most my lifters were fine, a few were pretty well chewed up, lots of pits and surface imperfections. I put it all back together, made sure it was cleaner, and purposely changed the order of what lifter went where only putting the one that fit the smoothest in each valve. Rosenthal has lifters each costing 40 bucks, on ebay I can find topline and another off brand a full set for 100 bucks or so. Is there anything to be weary of with these cheaper lifters? When getting new ones do I just put some oil on them and drop them in or is there more to it? I'm really clueless on HLAs and when I search I'm just fishing through mountains of info on getting rid of ticking and noise.