Looking for info on SDS controlled Miatas
06-12-2007, 06:59 PM
#1
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Looking for info on SDS controlled Miatas
Is anyone using SDS on their forced induction miata? I'm at a point with my supercharger that powercard and MSD are not doing what I want them to do, and I have an oppurtunity to purchase an SDS system very cheap. I'm not looking for ultimate power, I just want the thing to run strong and run well. Any body experienced with SDS?
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06-12-2007, 09:04 PM
#3
A lot of Aussie guys run it. Where are you located? You might want to look into some Aussie miata forums. I know some people have dabbled with it on M.net, and I think Markp (on here) might have messed with it. You can also check www.rx7.com they have a section with SDS info for rx7's depending on what your questions are you might be able to find answers.
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06-13-2007, 12:00 AM
#5
IIRC both Tom (FFS) and Brant (BRP) used it, but neither posts here nor there...
How cheap is cheap?
If you just run it in parallel for fueling and spark it, it maybe worth the venture.
There used to be a link on the SDS page of an SDS powered turbo miata, IIRC its got an HKS manifold and T28, so there already maybe a decent map in existence..
FWIW Steelrat is running an M62 with EMB on his 95...
How cheap is cheap?
If you just run it in parallel for fueling and spark it, it maybe worth the venture.
There used to be a link on the SDS page of an SDS powered turbo miata, IIRC its got an HKS manifold and T28, so there already maybe a decent map in existence..
FWIW Steelrat is running an M62 with EMB on his 95...
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06-13-2007, 09:20 AM
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I think there might be a few guys left running the full SDS on the BRP forum.... however, I don't know for sure if it's the full one, or just the 5th injector controller. But you need to find out which one they are talkin' about. One works with the PC.... the other is a full replacement.
Brant has been pretty much MIA.... Tom, or some of the other early MP62 guys might remember.....
Definately post on the BRP....
Jefe's right, I've got the EMB with mine, and it's running fine.... So it would work out to a very similar setup to what you are running now....
If you want full adjustability, I would say, check the MS for sure....
Dave,
Brant has been pretty much MIA.... Tom, or some of the other early MP62 guys might remember.....
Definately post on the BRP....
Jefe's right, I've got the EMB with mine, and it's running fine.... So it would work out to a very similar setup to what you are running now....
If you want full adjustability, I would say, check the MS for sure....
Dave,
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06-13-2007, 02:11 PM
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The SDS I'm talking about is not the fifth injector, it's the full setup. I could get it with all the sensors necessary to switch over to MAP for $400. The guy I'd be buying it from has Honda roots but he's a great tuner. For a little extra he'd set it up for me, but I'm a little worried that the miata application might be a little foreign to him. He dogged EMB and praised Mega Squirt, but I just don't have the time to research everything necessary to get the car going on megasquirt and I can't imagine putting MS together for less than $400. I'm not shooting for the moon, I just want 170 reliable hp.
I'm running a PC and MSD right now on a DIY M62 and I went to the dyno the other day. The numbers were good - 165hp and 158lbs. But the A/F numbers had me worried.
3k-4k 15 to 1
4k-4.5k 14 to 1
4.5k-5k Slopes down from 14 to 1 to 13 to 1
5k-5.5k 13 to 1
5.5-7k between 12 to 1 and 13 to 1
Is it normal/safe for it to be so lean early on? I'm running an 8psi pulley. Any feedback would be welcome. For the time being I'm switching back to a 6psi pulley so I don't blow the thing up. Some have recommended an 02 clamp, but these pulls were done with a wideband in place of the O2 sensor, so I can't see how it could be pulling fuel based on a reading from a sensor that's not there. I'd appreciate any feedback from you guys.
nick><>
I'm running a PC and MSD right now on a DIY M62 and I went to the dyno the other day. The numbers were good - 165hp and 158lbs. But the A/F numbers had me worried.
3k-4k 15 to 1
4k-4.5k 14 to 1
4.5k-5k Slopes down from 14 to 1 to 13 to 1
5k-5.5k 13 to 1
5.5-7k between 12 to 1 and 13 to 1
Is it normal/safe for it to be so lean early on? I'm running an 8psi pulley. Any feedback would be welcome. For the time being I'm switching back to a 6psi pulley so I don't blow the thing up. Some have recommended an 02 clamp, but these pulls were done with a wideband in place of the O2 sensor, so I can't see how it could be pulling fuel based on a reading from a sensor that's not there. I'd appreciate any feedback from you guys.
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06-13-2007, 02:28 PM
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It would be ignoring o2 sensor input at WOT anyway.
If you had more fuel down low, you should make a bit more power. Plus removing your AFM is going to get you more boost.
You might want to wait until the 94/95 MSPNP is released. The 90/93 version is priced at $700, perhaps the 94/95 will be the same.
If you had more fuel down low, you should make a bit more power. Plus removing your AFM is going to get you more boost.
You might want to wait until the 94/95 MSPNP is released. The 90/93 version is priced at $700, perhaps the 94/95 will be the same.
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06-13-2007, 02:45 PM
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I'm not willing to spend $700. Another option I've heard of but nobody seems to really know the details on is a possible +%10 chip for the powercard. Does anyone on here know about this mod? I don't think I should be maxing out my injectors at 165hp, why am I so lean especially down low?
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06-13-2007, 02:56 PM
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The reason is because the power card sucks.
You should have enough injector for ~180 or so whp, assuming the fuel pump, filter, and injectors are all in good shape.
You should have enough injector for ~180 or so whp, assuming the fuel pump, filter, and injectors are all in good shape.
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06-13-2007, 03:05 PM
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Ben, could you explain it's suckage? Why am I super lean early on but not so lean closer to redline? Is the powercard just too slow to react? BRP was selling their MP62 hotside with the PC and people were laying down 170hp out of the box, right?
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06-13-2007, 03:17 PM
#15
Maybe you should try running with the PC on a 94, you need your stock O2 sensor in place and an O2 clamp.
The 10% PC upgrade, holds the injectors open 10% longer and sooner, but does not increase the overall injector opening by 10% at 7000RPM, it won't allow more boost, just more fuel sooner.
The PC was not designed for the NA miata's, I know, and so does Steelrat, because we both ran them on our NA's and the A/F's were less then ideal. (were both running something different) we were both probably really lucky, although he may have been running the 255 walbro (because it's so large it will over power the stock fpr and provide more fuel psi)
Originally FM could only get them to support 4psi of boost (on NA's), if your running an original, then that maybe all the PC is capable of on a 94.
If you have a tuner friend that is going to help, then use what they are familiar with.
IIRC I put together my MS for ~$200 or $300, don't really remember, what ever the kit price was from Glens garage (it was the MS1 3.0) I was able to sell it on eBay for more than I paid for it..
The 10% PC upgrade, holds the injectors open 10% longer and sooner, but does not increase the overall injector opening by 10% at 7000RPM, it won't allow more boost, just more fuel sooner.
The PC was not designed for the NA miata's, I know, and so does Steelrat, because we both ran them on our NA's and the A/F's were less then ideal. (were both running something different) we were both probably really lucky, although he may have been running the 255 walbro (because it's so large it will over power the stock fpr and provide more fuel psi)
Originally FM could only get them to support 4psi of boost (on NA's), if your running an original, then that maybe all the PC is capable of on a 94.
If you have a tuner friend that is going to help, then use what they are familiar with.
IIRC I put together my MS for ~$200 or $300, don't really remember, what ever the kit price was from Glens garage (it was the MS1 3.0) I was able to sell it on eBay for more than I paid for it..
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06-13-2007, 03:29 PM
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I did/do have the Walbro 255 in there.... it was included with my kit originally, since I started this whole thing with the AFPR.... <G>
The O2 clamp with any sort of piggy, PC, PC Pro, Voodoo, even things like the EMB/EMU/Link piggy.... it's really important, on specific cars. I found I had to pull so much timing out with the Bipes to keep it from pinging in the 3/4K zone. My car has always been sensitive there though.
The issue with the PC is the lack of adjustabiltiy.... you can't tune it. You can't change it... and you can't really run bigger injectors. On a stock M1 fuel system with the 230cc injectors, and 35 psi in the rail @ idle, you are just going to be maxing out the injectors.... with your boost. I was running 7.5psi, and I'm pretty sure I would have been over the top.... But I didn't have the WB to confirm. I have one dyno with the PC/Bipes combo, and the AFRs were very similar to yours. Leaner in some places, richer in others.... but you can't fix it.
I think Jefe's right, the logic used with the PC was originally designed for the M2's with the 60psi fuel system, which, well, sprays quite a bit more, and gives you a lot more headroom to work with. The M2's with the better heads, flowed around 170->180 out of the box with the same setup as mine. Non-IC'd 4 rib, with 77.5mm pulley, and the stock 130mm crank pulley..... But that was with the better head. I think IIRC, I've been in the 160->170 range with that same pulley without the m2 head.
The SDS is fine, it will work, the problem is the level of support. There aren't a lot of guys out there using it... at least in the miata world. It never took off, so.... if you can find somebody who can give the support, it will work.
I wouldn't not consider something like an MS, PnP or home built though. The support is out there, and there's a few guys who are running the same thing with a 62....
Another option is to get a used EM, if you can find one, but you'll be looking at the same price as the SDS when you add things like the cables, and the autotune, etc.....
Dave,
The O2 clamp with any sort of piggy, PC, PC Pro, Voodoo, even things like the EMB/EMU/Link piggy.... it's really important, on specific cars. I found I had to pull so much timing out with the Bipes to keep it from pinging in the 3/4K zone. My car has always been sensitive there though.
The issue with the PC is the lack of adjustabiltiy.... you can't tune it. You can't change it... and you can't really run bigger injectors. On a stock M1 fuel system with the 230cc injectors, and 35 psi in the rail @ idle, you are just going to be maxing out the injectors.... with your boost. I was running 7.5psi, and I'm pretty sure I would have been over the top.... But I didn't have the WB to confirm. I have one dyno with the PC/Bipes combo, and the AFRs were very similar to yours. Leaner in some places, richer in others.... but you can't fix it.
I think Jefe's right, the logic used with the PC was originally designed for the M2's with the 60psi fuel system, which, well, sprays quite a bit more, and gives you a lot more headroom to work with. The M2's with the better heads, flowed around 170->180 out of the box with the same setup as mine. Non-IC'd 4 rib, with 77.5mm pulley, and the stock 130mm crank pulley..... But that was with the better head. I think IIRC, I've been in the 160->170 range with that same pulley without the m2 head.
The SDS is fine, it will work, the problem is the level of support. There aren't a lot of guys out there using it... at least in the miata world. It never took off, so.... if you can find somebody who can give the support, it will work.
I wouldn't not consider something like an MS, PnP or home built though. The support is out there, and there's a few guys who are running the same thing with a 62....
Another option is to get a used EM, if you can find one, but you'll be looking at the same price as the SDS when you add things like the cables, and the autotune, etc.....
Dave,
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06-13-2007, 03:30 PM
#18
IIRC the 10% chip was only 10 bucks.
What's in FFS's magic box? I know its a derivative of the PC, for $400, he might have a/the perfect solution?
Are you having drivability issues?
Hesitations?
Or does it sometimes feel like an on/off switch?
Dave,
I just picked up an Profec E0-1 for 200!!
What's in FFS's magic box? I know its a derivative of the PC, for $400, he might have a/the perfect solution?
Are you having drivability issues?
Hesitations?
Or does it sometimes feel like an on/off switch?
Dave,
I just picked up an Profec E0-1 for 200!!
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06-13-2007, 03:40 PM
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I appreciate the feedback guys.
Jefe, do you know where I could get the %10 PC upgrade? If it remedies the leanness early in the rpm range, that's where I need it most. That, coupled with an 02 clamp may solve my problem. Otherwise, what hardware besides the basic $200-$300 kit do you need to run MS? My tuner friend said he'd charge me $120 to put the kit together, I'm just worried that the $200-$300 kit is only the tip of the iceburg and I'll end up needing sensors, new injectors, cables, etc... If I could do MS for under $500 I'd probably go that route.
Steelrat, how do you like the EMB? They can be had used for cheep, but if it's got too many weaknesses, I'll avoid it. Some people tend to knock a product because it's not 'the best', but if it does the job well I'm fine with it. Right now, PC and MSD are not doing the job well.
Jefe, do you know where I could get the %10 PC upgrade? If it remedies the leanness early in the rpm range, that's where I need it most. That, coupled with an 02 clamp may solve my problem. Otherwise, what hardware besides the basic $200-$300 kit do you need to run MS? My tuner friend said he'd charge me $120 to put the kit together, I'm just worried that the $200-$300 kit is only the tip of the iceburg and I'll end up needing sensors, new injectors, cables, etc... If I could do MS for under $500 I'd probably go that route.
Steelrat, how do you like the EMB? They can be had used for cheep, but if it's got too many weaknesses, I'll avoid it. Some people tend to knock a product because it's not 'the best', but if it does the job well I'm fine with it. Right now, PC and MSD are not doing the job well.
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