V8 Rebellion?
10-17-2009, 12:28 PM
#44
I spent a lot of time a few years ago OCDing about LS in E36 and FD chassis, and finally decided that the right answer is just to go buy a Corvette. It's basically the same car as a Miata, but big enough to actually put down 500+ hp. 285 front/315 rear go on with cheap replica wheels and clear 14-in. dia. brakes. It's corner-weightable and ride height adjustable from the factory. The work is already done, with a level of integrity good enough to have had a full factory warranty, even if it's expired.
Fundamentally good, but not perfect chassis. Engine that's only good enough but easy to get more power from.
I even finally realized that 255/40-17 and 275/40-27 on first-gen ZR1 replica wheels will work great and give you lots of affordable, good tire choices.
You do need to replace the seats and steering wheel with something that doesn't make you want to vomit when you look at them, and parts of the interior are liable to free themselves, but that last bit is true of BMWs, too.
If I get as far as I want to take my Miata, and it's still not good enough, this is what I'm doing.
Fundamentally good, but not perfect chassis. Engine that's only good enough but easy to get more power from.
I even finally realized that 255/40-17 and 275/40-27 on first-gen ZR1 replica wheels will work great and give you lots of affordable, good tire choices.
You do need to replace the seats and steering wheel with something that doesn't make you want to vomit when you look at them, and parts of the interior are liable to free themselves, but that last bit is true of BMWs, too.
If I get as far as I want to take my Miata, and it's still not good enough, this is what I'm doing.
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10-17-2009, 12:32 PM
#45
The v8 movement depends on goals and what makes you happy. If you are happy with 200-250hp turbo is the only way to go. When you start hitting 350-400hp as a goal it's much less clear. By the time you add up a built turbo motor, clutch, tranny, rear end and all the other supporting mods you just aren't that far from having done the V8. The small 4 banger turbo pushing 400hp is likely all top end vs the nice easy broad powerband of the 8. If the only option was the Monster 5 liter Ford, there wouldn't be this movement. The LSx is reliable, light and fits. If it wasn't such a good motor it wouldn't be the new hot thing to do.
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10-17-2009, 12:45 PM
#46
The v8 movement depends on goals and what makes you happy. If you are happy with 200-250hp turbo is the only way to go. When you start hitting 350-400hp as a goal it's much less clear. By the time you add up a built turbo motor, clutch, tranny, rear end and all the other supporting mods you just aren't that far from having done the V8. The small 4 banger turbo pushing 400hp is likely all top end vs the nice easy broad powerband of the 8. If the only option was the Monster 5 liter Ford, there wouldn't be this movement. The LSx is reliable, light and fits. If it wasn't such a good motor it wouldn't be the new hot thing to do.
But If you give me a basic 5.0Hp. I can get some cheap used heads.
That car will be a torque monster and a beast.
I love 5.0's. You fart in them and they run. They have the bore of a 350 with a tiny stroke. they rap hard and fast.
And you can find a used supercharger for $1000 every week.
You can push 400-500 hp easy.
If someone knows what they are doing, on a cheap budget, and can't afford the 250 bucks for used Gt40 heads. The stock heads and intake, can be hand worked to make good power up to 5800rpms as well.
But if I didn't just have everything laying around, I would go get the 5.3L Lsx out of a truck. 290Hp for $450.
Light and cheaper for 320hp if left stock. But if your going for 450+ hp. You will probaly spend the same either way, and the ls1 would probably be stronger, if the motors are not built..
500hp the 5.0L splits
Some have made more on the Ls1. I don't know how long it would last though.
Last edited by Toddcod; 10-17-2009 at 12:57 PM.
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10-17-2009, 12:46 PM
#47
SY510...you have to look at two things:
1. Price point
2. Project Fun
It doesn't sound like much, but the $5-10K difference between a finished LSx Miata and a decent 'Vette is a bargain breaker for most people, especially when you're comparing a stock Chevy to a supped up Miata (roll bar, suspension, chassis stiffening ect). A lot of us think the Miata is a uniquely well balanced car, and a more engaging drive. I bought my safety equipment off a gal with a 750whp C5, and she wished she had started in the Miata to learn to REALLY drive. She hinted that the Corvette was too easy to go fast in.
Also, many of us have to keep our hands busy. The V8 Miata is a fun, exciting project with plenty of support. The resulting product is also is a known quantity that anyone will tell you ROCKS. I think the IDEA of building one is what sells...not the actual ownership. ZX-Tex however can probably attest to an LSx Miata still being more appealling even from just a purchasing standpoint.
1. Price point
2. Project Fun
It doesn't sound like much, but the $5-10K difference between a finished LSx Miata and a decent 'Vette is a bargain breaker for most people, especially when you're comparing a stock Chevy to a supped up Miata (roll bar, suspension, chassis stiffening ect). A lot of us think the Miata is a uniquely well balanced car, and a more engaging drive. I bought my safety equipment off a gal with a 750whp C5, and she wished she had started in the Miata to learn to REALLY drive. She hinted that the Corvette was too easy to go fast in.
Also, many of us have to keep our hands busy. The V8 Miata is a fun, exciting project with plenty of support. The resulting product is also is a known quantity that anyone will tell you ROCKS. I think the IDEA of building one is what sells...not the actual ownership. ZX-Tex however can probably attest to an LSx Miata still being more appealling even from just a purchasing standpoint.
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10-17-2009, 12:49 PM
#48
A 5.0 L is a beast too. I realize that everyone wants the weight benefit. And the Lsx comes already 290+ hp. Which bang for buck is best.
But If you give me a basic 5.0Hp. I can get some cheap used heads.
That car will be a torque monster and a beast.
I love 5.0's. You fart in them and they run. They have the bore of a 350 with a tiny stroke. they rap hard and fast.
And you can find a used supercharger for $1000 every week.
You can push 400-500 hp easy.
If someone knows what they are doingand on a cheap budget and can't afford the 250 buck for used Gt40 heads. The stock heads can be hand worked to make good power up to 5800rpms as well.
But if I didn't just have everything laying around, I would go get the 5.3L out of a truck. 290Hp for $450.
But If you give me a basic 5.0Hp. I can get some cheap used heads.
That car will be a torque monster and a beast.
I love 5.0's. You fart in them and they run. They have the bore of a 350 with a tiny stroke. they rap hard and fast.
And you can find a used supercharger for $1000 every week.
You can push 400-500 hp easy.
If someone knows what they are doingand on a cheap budget and can't afford the 250 buck for used Gt40 heads. The stock heads can be hand worked to make good power up to 5800rpms as well.
But if I didn't just have everything laying around, I would go get the 5.3L out of a truck. 290Hp for $450.
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10-17-2009, 12:52 PM
#49
A 5.0 L is a beast too. I realize that everyone wants the weight benefit. And the Lsx comes already 290+ hp. Which bang for buck is best.
But If you give me a basic 5.0Hp. I can get some cheap used heads.
That car will be a torque monster and a beast.
I love 5.0's. You fart in them and they run. They have the bore of a 350 with a tiny stroke. they rap hard and fast.
And you can find a used supercharger for $1000 every week.
You can push 400-500 hp easy.
If someone knows what they are doing, on a cheap budget, and can't afford the 250 buck for used Gt40 heads. The stock heads and intake, can be hand worked to make good power up to 5800rpms as well.
But if I didn't just have everything laying around, I would go get the 5.3L out of a truck. 290Hp for $450.
Light and cheaper in the end.
But If you give me a basic 5.0Hp. I can get some cheap used heads.
That car will be a torque monster and a beast.
I love 5.0's. You fart in them and they run. They have the bore of a 350 with a tiny stroke. they rap hard and fast.
And you can find a used supercharger for $1000 every week.
You can push 400-500 hp easy.
If someone knows what they are doing, on a cheap budget, and can't afford the 250 buck for used Gt40 heads. The stock heads and intake, can be hand worked to make good power up to 5800rpms as well.
But if I didn't just have everything laying around, I would go get the 5.3L out of a truck. 290Hp for $450.
Light and cheaper in the end.
The Monster stuff has available for years. It's not bad. The v8 explosion is due to the LSx though. Light, low center of gravity still, no carbs. The Ford motor conversion isn't bad, the LS kits are just a whole lot better.
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10-17-2009, 01:05 PM
#50
As for many of the current people doing the LS swap, I hope to see one in person at some point. The LS with a turbo should be quite an exciting car. I've had the pleasure of seeing/racing a car with the Ford swap and the only thing going for it was the sound because it sure wasn't fast.
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10-17-2009, 01:21 PM
#51
I was just adding that for a few red necks, that may be looking at the "u-pull its" and going to weld the whole shabang together. And try to do it for $1500-$2500.
I think it can be done. I think the most expensive part will be the axles and drive shaft.
Wrecked mustang. U-pull it motor $60.00, t-5 ($250 DFWstangs.net), U-pull it rear end an axles out of a Mark VIII $60.00, new clutch $200.00. Custom steel drive shaft and axles for $160.00 -190.00 a piece.
$320.00 drive train.
$600 axles
$20 for motor mounts and trans mount
-----------
Lets say $1000
Scrap steel from yard toward Desoto.
$100 for crossmember, trans and rearend support
------
Time time time.....pissed
decide not to do it$1400 Redneck 4wd shop from the boone'ys puts it in for you.
$2500: Done...
I like it.
Or 5.3 Lsx and options
$450-550,
6-speed $650
$35 tranny brace
$70 motor mounts.
U-pull it Mark VII rear end $60
$100 strap metal.
Axles drive shafts $600
$2000
$1400 cheap or high $2000 to put it in.
$3400-$4000 done.
Money is tight in Arkansas. I may be wronge, But I bet they would drop it in.
I'm calling a few shops Monday.
Last edited by Toddcod; 10-17-2009 at 01:41 PM.
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10-17-2009, 01:54 PM
#52
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So I agree the LSx engines are the reason the swap trend is really taking off.
Now, from a racing perspective...
I want a road racing car that is going to be very fast, very reliable, and relatively cheap to operate, just like the bikes I have been racing up until this point. Going with a LSx conversion in a lightweight Miata chassis seems like a good fit. I think the FD chassis would be an excellent choice too, but costs a bit more to get into, and is a little heavier, about 300-400 lbs IIRC. Once the car is converted, drivetrain parts are much cheaper: new ring and pinion sets in a huge variety of ratios for less than $200, new Torsen T2 carriers for ~$500, cams for the engine, heads, valves, pistons, all cheaper.
A turn-key Corvette is also appealing, and not even that much more expensive to buy when considering the total build cost of the LSx Miata. However it is a much bigger car, and I prefer the small, fits-like-a-glove feel of the Miata. Plus, track tires for the Vettes are MUCH more expensive than say the 225/50/15 NT01 I am using, so that has to be considered as well. Another thing too is that if one crashes, or is crashed into, it is going to be a lot cheaper to repair a Miata than a Vette.
So in short, for racing, it is a great marriage. The relatively cheap, simple, bulletproof power of the LSx, and the light, nimble, well suspended chassis of the Miata; it is the modern day version of the Cobra. I'll bet Carrol Shelby would approve.
From a street perspective...
I agree that the turbo motor is still an excellent choice if one does not get too crazy (like I have) and keeps it under 300 RWHP, or under 200-225 RWHP with a stock motor. It can be built/upgraded in stages, and the turbo sound and power delivery sounds better and is more fun than the V8 IMO. Plus it does not require as much build skill as the V8 conversion. Megasquirts and Adaptronics are cheap. In fact, they are about the same price as what it takes to get the electronics to tune the LSx ECU.
And, if one does the turbo piping correctly (v-bands, unobtanium bolts) then it can be a reliable track setup as well. No reason why not. It just takes much more careful tuning and setup than the brute V8 displacement route because the specific power output is so much higher and thus more prone to knock and engine damage. I learned this the hard way.
Right now I am not saying that either one is better than the other. It is too soon for me to decide as I have not had the LS1 on the track yet. That will be the real test for me. Ask me again in about a year which Miata (LS1 or turbo) I would want to keep if I had to give up the other one. Hopefully I will not have to though. Right now I love them both equally, like a good father should
I could go on and on about this, but I'll leave it here for now.
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10-17-2009, 02:09 PM
#53
I don't understand why alot of people have a problem with using the 5.0's. 300hp is easily obtained and it will still be dead reliable.
What really sucks for me right now is my buddy has a 300hp 5.0 from his old car sitting at his shop. He told me 1000bucks and it's mine with the 5spd. That and the Panache/MonsterMiata kit for 4000K is a really, really tempting combo. Gobs of power and the realiability factor. Hmmmm.
Who wants a 1.7 motor with a custom intake manifold and external wastegate exhaust manifold??????
What really sucks for me right now is my buddy has a 300hp 5.0 from his old car sitting at his shop. He told me 1000bucks and it's mine with the 5spd. That and the Panache/MonsterMiata kit for 4000K is a really, really tempting combo. Gobs of power and the realiability factor. Hmmmm.
Who wants a 1.7 motor with a custom intake manifold and external wastegate exhaust manifold??????
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10-17-2009, 03:14 PM
#56
Oh, I agree with you totally.
I was just adding that for a few red necks, that may be looking at the "u-pull its" and going to weld the whole shabang together. And try to do it for $1500-$2500.
I think it can be done. I think the most expensive part will be the axles and drive shaft.
Wrecked mustang. U-pull it motor $60.00, t-5 ($250 DFWstangs.net), U-pull it rear end an axles out of a Mark VIII $60.00, new clutch $200.00. Custom steel drive shaft and axles for $160.00 -190.00 a piece.
$320.00 drive train.
$600 axles
$20 for motor mounts and trans mount
-----------
Lets say $1000
Scrap steel from yard toward Desoto.
$100 for crossmember, trans and rearend support
------
Time time time.....pissed decide not to do it
$1400 labor Redneck 4wd shop from the boone'ys puts it in for you.
$2500: Done...
I like it.
Or 5.3 Lsx and options
$450-550,
6-speed $650
$35 tranny brace
$70 motor mounts.
U-pull it Mark VII rear end $60
$100 strap metal.
Axles drive shafts $600
$2000
$1400 labor cheap, or high $2000 labor, to put it in.
$3400-$4000 done.
Money is tight in Arkansas. I may be wronge, But I bet they would drop it in.
I'm calling a few shops Monday.
I was just adding that for a few red necks, that may be looking at the "u-pull its" and going to weld the whole shabang together. And try to do it for $1500-$2500.
I think it can be done. I think the most expensive part will be the axles and drive shaft.
Wrecked mustang. U-pull it motor $60.00, t-5 ($250 DFWstangs.net), U-pull it rear end an axles out of a Mark VIII $60.00, new clutch $200.00. Custom steel drive shaft and axles for $160.00 -190.00 a piece.
$320.00 drive train.
$600 axles
$20 for motor mounts and trans mount
-----------
Lets say $1000
Scrap steel from yard toward Desoto.
$100 for crossmember, trans and rearend support
------
Time time time.....pissed
decide not to do it$1400 labor Redneck 4wd shop from the boone'ys puts it in for you.
$2500: Done...
I like it.
Or 5.3 Lsx and options
$450-550,
6-speed $650
$35 tranny brace
$70 motor mounts.
U-pull it Mark VII rear end $60
$100 strap metal.
Axles drive shafts $600
$2000
$1400 labor cheap, or high $2000 labor, to put it in.
$3400-$4000 done.
Money is tight in Arkansas. I may be wronge, But I bet they would drop it in.
I'm calling a few shops Monday.
I forgot about brakes, exhaust, and I'm sure alot. But my main point was, it might could be done cheaper (or reasonable) if delagated right.
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10-17-2009, 03:48 PM
#57
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No slam against a 5.0 from me. I had a '86 Mustang GT and the stock engine was great even with high mileage.
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