The 911 challenge thread
01-31-2008, 08:40 PM
#181
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Quote:- multiple warnings from several foreign intelligence agencies, including the UK, Russia, Egypt, Germany, Jordan, Morrocco - and the most detailed, from the Israelis
Yes they did. They mentioned the WTC specifically.
Did any of them say, hey, on 9/11 they are gonna hijack planes and try to run them into buildings in NYC and DC?
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01-31-2008, 08:50 PM
#182
Our own CIA had warnings, so did the FBI. But the credibility of the people who were calling in was in question. Yes the CIA fucked up not acting on the warning signs, but that doesn't mean they pulled the trigger. Local NYPD fucked up too. They had much information to sift through. They also had allot of misinformation to sift through. Terrorists have brains too. Misinformation was supplied too. They got one over on us, and it rocked our intelligence system. Everything now has been "fixed" to make sure the same mistakes don't happen.
Our government fucked up, it doesn't mean they did it intentionally.
Our government fucked up, it doesn't mean they did it intentionally.
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02-01-2008, 11:23 PM
#188
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Heat and pressure. That is what is needed to cause plastic explosives (most commonly used for demolition) to explode. I am sure a plane impacting, and then turning into a fireball, would certainly have set off any explosives on those floors and caused it to pancake immediately onto the other floors.
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02-01-2008, 11:31 PM
#189
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
The fire had black smoke, which meant it was an oxygen poor fire (rich air-fuel ratio), which don't burn very hot. This is shown in the presentation. In order to weaken steel significantly, the temperatures required need forced air such as what you have with an oxy-acetylene torch.
Again (a)the temperatures are too low (b)the margin of safety too high (c) if it slowly deformed, there would have been visible sagging.
Buckling steel would not fall at free-fall speeds.
The fire had black smoke, which meant it was an oxygen poor fire (rich air-fuel ratio), which don't burn very hot. This is shown in the presentation. In order to weaken steel significantly, the temperatures required need forced air such as what you have with an oxy-acetylene torch.
Again (a)the temperatures are too low (b)the margin of safety too high (c) if it slowly deformed, there would have been visible sagging.
Buckling steel would not fall at free-fall speeds.
Oh bullshit dude. BULL ****.
Have you ever seen video of the Hindenburg Zeppelin after it caught fire? The flames were Orange, even though it was full of HYDROGEN which burns CLEAR. Think HOUSE FIRE... Carpet, furniture, ceiling tiles, ducting, etc, etc, etc, etc... All that **** on fire causes BLACK SMOKE...
Have you ever seen video of the Hindenburg Zeppelin after it caught fire? The flames were Orange, even though it was full of HYDROGEN which burns CLEAR. Think HOUSE FIRE... Carpet, furniture, ceiling tiles, ducting, etc, etc, etc, etc... All that **** on fire causes BLACK SMOKE...
If you watch the WTC fires, it started out strongly, then the jet fuel was cosumed in a few minutes, and the remaining fires were a smoldering office fire. This was described in the radio transmissions of the firemen that got up there. If it was anywhere hot enough to soften steel, the firemen would not have been able to get up there.
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02-01-2008, 11:35 PM
#190
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Here ya go, just ONE reference from an Engineer debunking your Foil Hat Theory.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_2639813949
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_2639813949
Astaneh's model has simulated the first few seconds of the plane's impact and entry into the building, and he is refining the model to include damage to the plane, the building floors and the internal core columns. The next step will be to include the effect of fire heating the damaged structure and initiating its final collapse.
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02-02-2008, 12:00 AM
#191
Jason, again without either transcripts of conversations or data backing up your claims this really isn't going to go anywhere.
PS. When it comes to metal you don't need a lot of heat to anneal it (compared to melting it). So plane hits, jet fuel burns (i will argue for more than a few minutes which can be proved by taking the energy content of the fuel over time, if its too short like you say enough energy would be releases to yield the material) it anneals the metal and bam floors fails.
A rule of thumb my professors always used;
I put my faith in god everyone else brings proof
PS. When it comes to metal you don't need a lot of heat to anneal it (compared to melting it). So plane hits, jet fuel burns (i will argue for more than a few minutes which can be proved by taking the energy content of the fuel over time, if its too short like you say enough energy would be releases to yield the material) it anneals the metal and bam floors fails.
A rule of thumb my professors always used;
I put my faith in god everyone else brings proof
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02-02-2008, 12:26 AM
#192
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http://www.911research.wtc7.net/talk...eltdownre.html
The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy
The simple facts of temperatures:
1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum gas temperature increase imparted by a hydrocarbon flame burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)
Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.
The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800ºC.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.
The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy
The simple facts of temperatures:
1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum gas temperature increase imparted by a hydrocarbon flame burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)
Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.
The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800ºC.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.
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02-02-2008, 10:00 AM
#195
http://www.911research.wtc7.net/talk...eltdownre.html
The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy
The simple facts of temperatures:
1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum gas temperature increase imparted by a hydrocarbon flame burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)
Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.
The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800ºC.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.
The Killer Fires Theory is Pure Fantasy
The simple facts of temperatures:
1535ºC (2795ºF) - melting point of iron
~1510ºC (2750ºF) - melting point of typical structural steel
~825ºC (1517ºF) - maximum gas temperature increase imparted by a hydrocarbon flame burning in the atmosphere without pressurization or pre-heating (premixed fuel and air - blue flame)
Diffuse flames burn far cooler.
Oxygen-starved diffuse flames are cooler yet.
The fires in the towers were diffuse -- well below 800ºC.
Their dark smoke showed they were oxygen-starved -- particularly in the South Tower.
See jason i made a claim, and I back it up with evidence. Now you make a claim and back it up with evidence. Stop posting links and tell me to read them. We are having a discussion, what if your beloved Ron Paul went into a debate and every time another candidate made a point he just said, You need to read this book and this link, and then quoted a small passage out if it without context or supporting evidence for its validation.
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02-02-2008, 10:08 AM
#196
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_flame
No mention of temperature there
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premixed_flame
No mention of temperature there.
Put jason from your sweet little link
"Fires have never caused column failure in steel structures."
Really? Amazing. You should tell all those forging mills the the fire they use doesn't do anything.
No mention of temperature there
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premixed_flame
No mention of temperature there.
Put jason from your sweet little link
"Fires have never caused column failure in steel structures."
Really? Amazing. You should tell all those forging mills the the fire they use doesn't do anything.
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02-02-2008, 12:27 PM
#197
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Forging mills need to pump air to get high temperatures. Open flames don't get hot enough to melt steel. Acetylene torches need oxygen premixed with acetylene at high pressure to be able to cut steel.
Last edited by JasonC SBB; 02-02-2008 at 12:50 PM.
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02-02-2008, 01:01 PM
#198
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The South tower which was struck later, took a let less time to collapse. This, despite the fact that most of the airliner's fuel burned outside the building:
Big fireball outside the South tower:
Big fireball outside the South tower:
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02-02-2008, 01:02 PM
#199
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This steel building burned fiercely for nearly 24 hours, yet did not collapse:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=th2bnG_7UyY
The fire started 2/3rd of the way up, just like where the South tower was struck.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=th2bnG_7UyY
The fire started 2/3rd of the way up, just like where the South tower was struck.
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