I'd like to know what FM thinks they do better than BEGi
09-26-2007, 12:20 PM
#1
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I'd like to know what FM thinks they do better than BEGi
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...53#post2715153
:gay:
I doubt corky and stephanie will sling **** though...I think their products speak for themselves, and they know it.
:gay:
I doubt corky and stephanie will sling **** though...I think their products speak for themselves, and they know it.
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09-26-2007, 12:54 PM
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I would suspect that FM has higher overhead. I've never seen either shop, but dammit FM has a lot of people with fingers in the pie.
FM is definately better at brand management and marketing. Their website is better & friendlier, and kept more current. FM is better at making 'cookie cutter' products. FM's kits are easier to install, if for anything, due to fewer items. FM has more EM options.
BEGi has IMO better hardware, better support, a more comprehensive approach, less marketing bs and more substance, custom fabrication, and does not conduct themselves in a snotty botique manner.
Ever seen the 4-eyes commercials showing their snotty competitor selling glasses? That reminds me of FM.
FM is definately better at brand management and marketing. Their website is better & friendlier, and kept more current. FM is better at making 'cookie cutter' products. FM's kits are easier to install, if for anything, due to fewer items. FM has more EM options.
BEGi has IMO better hardware, better support, a more comprehensive approach, less marketing bs and more substance, custom fabrication, and does not conduct themselves in a snotty botique manner.
Ever seen the 4-eyes commercials showing their snotty competitor selling glasses? That reminds me of FM.
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09-26-2007, 01:27 PM
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reasons I went with bell and not fm:
downpipe
air scooper
centralized oil and water
better heat sheilds
bell intercooler > chinacooler
and I talked to FM and they told me they had another option for the manifold that was thicker, so even though the earlier one didn't crack, this one had extra "won't crack" or whatever. I thought that reeked of bullshit, and considering all the problems I had with cracked ****, I didn't want to go that route again.
The only think I like from FM is the intercooler tubing... as long as it fits perfectly and rubs nothing.
downpipe
air scooper
centralized oil and water
better heat sheilds
bell intercooler > chinacooler
and I talked to FM and they told me they had another option for the manifold that was thicker, so even though the earlier one didn't crack, this one had extra "won't crack" or whatever. I thought that reeked of bullshit, and considering all the problems I had with cracked ****, I didn't want to go that route again.
The only think I like from FM is the intercooler tubing... as long as it fits perfectly and rubs nothing.
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as if this hasn't been discussed enough...
09-26-2007, 01:43 PM
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say the metal tubes that bell runs add an additional .5psi drop as compared to the FM smooth tubes. which would you rather have, a 20F cooler charge, or .5psi add'l boost?
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09-26-2007, 01:45 PM
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Actually, Corky reams out FM's intercooler tubing pretty straightforward on the bell website. something about intercooler tubing shouldnt be an insulator, and that the bell design drops 20 degrees off the charge temps just by using metal tubing--no intercooler involved. sure its easy to mould into shape, but insulating your pressurized charge is not the right way of thinking, other than for cost savings.
say the metal tubes that bell runs add an additional .5psi drop as compared to the FM smooth tubes. which would you rather have, a 20F cooler charge, or .5psi add'l boost?
say the metal tubes that bell runs add an additional .5psi drop as compared to the FM smooth tubes. which would you rather have, a 20F cooler charge, or .5psi add'l boost?
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09-26-2007, 01:45 PM
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I get the overall feeling that FM is an enthusiast-driven company, whereas Bell is an engineering-driven company.
Corky has a degree in mechanical engineering and worked as an engineer in the aerospace industry for quite some time before striking out on his own. So far as I know, BEGi does not directly participate in motorsports, choosing instead to function as a think-tank and design boutique. It's likely that this background, along with the fact that he tends to speak (and write) in engineerese, causes Bell and his firm to be perceived by some as aloof. I would suspect however that in general, the technical precision of his designs have historically exhibited a higher standard than those of most others.
Bill's past is in auto racing and tinkering, and I think that the shop reflects this personality. FM directly campaigns in various forms of motorsport, from autocross to track days, magazine challenges and high-profile events like the Targa rally. Their experience at actually designing turbocharger systems is somewhat limited, however I believe that the "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" philosophy that benefited automakers during the rise of NASCAR applies here- FM uses what they sell.
FM is basically comprised of hackers. If they want to try something, they might sketch it down roughly in chalk, but a more likely approach is simply to attack the problem with torches and grinders. This rough-n-tumble underdog mentality (along with having a cool mascot) earns FM a lot of karma points with the enthusiast crowd, who feel that they can better relate to (or be envious of / sympathetic to) the people who work there.
They also do a vastly superior job of marketing to their target audience- lots of frequently updated "behind the scenes" activity, open-houses, the Westfield, etc. Bell's website on the other hand has links that go nowhere, clickable pictures that don't enlarge, no downloadable documentation, and lots of photos without descriptions. Precisely the sort of thing you'd logically expect from a company whose main focus is not jazzy presentation. The company I work for (Harris Broadcast) genuinely does build some of the finest, most efficient radio transmitters in the world. One of our AM rigs is quite literally a direct D-A converter with a 50,000 watt output- not a single linear gain stage in it. Despite this however, our website utterly blows and we haven't published a catalog in years.
And of course FM are a one-stop-shop for all things high-performance; not just turbo kits and related accessories, but suspension and brake hardware, aftermarket body accessories and the like as well.
At this point, I don't really think that one company is superior to the other from the standpoint of the technical quality of their turbo systems. Both appear to be using very well-designed and high quality manifolds, both are using high-quality Garret turbochargers, both have very nice (though very different) downpipes, and both have extremely crappy engine management in their base kits.
The voodoo box is overpriced and under-featured. If it let you run bigger injectors and included timing retard that would be one thing, but it doesn't. And for what a voodoo plus a Bipes ACU costs you can buy an EMU or a MSPNP. The link and the Hydra are very cool, and if you can afford them they are at the top of their class (I differentiate Link / Hydra from MS based on vendor support) but again- wowewowa on the price.
The BEGi "fuel management system" is bronze-age technology. A pump and a rising-rate regulator? Gimme a break. And how do they justify $250 for a Pierburg fuel pump, when a Walbro 190 costs $80 and requires no plumbing modifications? Well, for one thing they give you a CARB sticker. The XEDE looks pretty neat, but at $1200 - $1600 it's still a piggyback. (granted, the injectors are included in that price.) But since it blows the CARB cert anyway, why not go full standalone? MSPNP FTW!
Corky has a degree in mechanical engineering and worked as an engineer in the aerospace industry for quite some time before striking out on his own. So far as I know, BEGi does not directly participate in motorsports, choosing instead to function as a think-tank and design boutique. It's likely that this background, along with the fact that he tends to speak (and write) in engineerese, causes Bell and his firm to be perceived by some as aloof. I would suspect however that in general, the technical precision of his designs have historically exhibited a higher standard than those of most others.
Bill's past is in auto racing and tinkering, and I think that the shop reflects this personality. FM directly campaigns in various forms of motorsport, from autocross to track days, magazine challenges and high-profile events like the Targa rally. Their experience at actually designing turbocharger systems is somewhat limited, however I believe that the "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" philosophy that benefited automakers during the rise of NASCAR applies here- FM uses what they sell.
FM is basically comprised of hackers. If they want to try something, they might sketch it down roughly in chalk, but a more likely approach is simply to attack the problem with torches and grinders. This rough-n-tumble underdog mentality (along with having a cool mascot) earns FM a lot of karma points with the enthusiast crowd, who feel that they can better relate to (or be envious of / sympathetic to) the people who work there.
They also do a vastly superior job of marketing to their target audience- lots of frequently updated "behind the scenes" activity, open-houses, the Westfield, etc. Bell's website on the other hand has links that go nowhere, clickable pictures that don't enlarge, no downloadable documentation, and lots of photos without descriptions. Precisely the sort of thing you'd logically expect from a company whose main focus is not jazzy presentation. The company I work for (Harris Broadcast) genuinely does build some of the finest, most efficient radio transmitters in the world. One of our AM rigs is quite literally a direct D-A converter with a 50,000 watt output- not a single linear gain stage in it. Despite this however, our website utterly blows and we haven't published a catalog in years.
And of course FM are a one-stop-shop for all things high-performance; not just turbo kits and related accessories, but suspension and brake hardware, aftermarket body accessories and the like as well.
At this point, I don't really think that one company is superior to the other from the standpoint of the technical quality of their turbo systems. Both appear to be using very well-designed and high quality manifolds, both are using high-quality Garret turbochargers, both have very nice (though very different) downpipes, and both have extremely crappy engine management in their base kits.
The voodoo box is overpriced and under-featured. If it let you run bigger injectors and included timing retard that would be one thing, but it doesn't. And for what a voodoo plus a Bipes ACU costs you can buy an EMU or a MSPNP. The link and the Hydra are very cool, and if you can afford them they are at the top of their class (I differentiate Link / Hydra from MS based on vendor support) but again- wowewowa on the price.
The BEGi "fuel management system" is bronze-age technology. A pump and a rising-rate regulator? Gimme a break. And how do they justify $250 for a Pierburg fuel pump, when a Walbro 190 costs $80 and requires no plumbing modifications? Well, for one thing they give you a CARB sticker. The XEDE looks pretty neat, but at $1200 - $1600 it's still a piggyback. (granted, the injectors are included in that price.) But since it blows the CARB cert anyway, why not go full standalone? MSPNP FTW!
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09-26-2007, 01:53 PM
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Corky Bell was huge in SCCA decades ago. He told me on the phone once that he doesn't get to the track anymore.
I don't care about the real argument, I just wanted to watch a bunch of bitches fight with each other. I've given both companies money.
I don't care about the real argument, I just wanted to watch a bunch of bitches fight with each other. I've given both companies money.
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09-26-2007, 02:02 PM
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sponsors need to grow some *****. their customers arent idiots, and can see when someone is just slinging mud. they can let their fanboys defend them, and not stoop to the same level.
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09-26-2007, 02:06 PM
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i know there was a dash of sarcasm there, but I dont think it was harsh, just some good honest criticism on things they could be doing better for their business and any business who gets offended over that is a fool.
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09-26-2007, 02:12 PM
#18
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This is what I like about TDR/Gary. When people talk **** about his products, he tells them to come back when you run X:XX time and then tell you to get fucked.
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