Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523086)

Anyone else packin heat?

Originally Posted by mgeoffriau (Post 523093)

S&W 38-2 Airweight Bodyguard sits in my courier bag all day at work.

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523123)

Bah! 9mm, might as well throw rocks at somebody. Damn things bounce off of windshields. Get yourself a real gun, Glock30

Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523131)

Im a small frame and cant really carry anything big and still be concealed. I mean if i could carry a mossberg in my pants i probably would. Will be picking up some HP's.

Originally Posted by neogenesis2004 (Post 523136)

You could open carry it on a sling on your back couldn't you? No one would ever fuck with you then. Didn't you see the weatherman with nick cage? (pretty good movie actually)

Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523165)

Carry the biggest caliber than you can handle right? 1 shot with a .22 is better than 5 missed shots with the .45 right?

Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523086)

I'm in the courthouse right now getting my CWP. I'm bored and waiting for them to fingerprint me. I will carry a Glock 26 once my license arrives. Anyone else packin heat?

Originally Posted by mgeoffriau (Post 523093)

S&W 38-2 Airweight Bodyguard sits in my courier bag all day at work.

Originally Posted by ScottFW (Post 523197)

I often carry a 37-2 when the weather is warm. Matte black finish, DAO with a factory bobbed hammer, forged parts, can handle +P, and no lawyer lock. :bigtu:

Originally Posted by djp0623 (Post 523237)

Walther P99, 15 rnd mag, with golden sabers.

9mm is just fine, I won't have to wound my assailant to death.

So I don't need a 45. I'm that good

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523123)

Bah! 9mm, might as well throw rocks at somebody. Damn things bounce off of windshields. Get yourself a real gun, Glock30

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523123)

Bah! 9mm, might as well throw rocks at somebody. Damn things bounce off of windshields. Get yourself a real gun, Glock30

Originally Posted by elesjuan (Post 523275)

:laugh:

Uhm.. .45GAP for example, 185 grain JHP @ 50 yards is moving 970fps and rated at 385 ftlbs.. 9mm Luger 147 Grain JHP @ 50 yards is moving 962fps and rated 302 ftlbs..

Can you say Dead is Dead?

9mm cheaper to shoot too. ;)

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523365)

.45 acp 230 grains @ 900fps is about the best people stopper out there. Tons of knock down force and no over-penetration (like 9mm does). I do like the ballistics on the .45GAP and .40, they are good choices but... if your life depends on it, the .45 is the way to go. Ask any spec-ops, FBI, CIA, etc. and they are probably carrying a .45acp. There are many examples out there about bad guys getting hit with multiple 9mm rounds and staying in the fight, not good. 9mm is a great sub-machine gun round (see my avatar) but is mediocre as a duty or carry weapon. I carry either a Glock30 or full size 1911 depending on what I'm wearing.

Originally Posted by djp0623 (Post 523379)

I have to disagree. .40 and .45 are good duty weapons because they are the most versitile when it comes to penetration. 9mm has a tough time going through glass. Not good for duty weapon where this scenerio would be much more prevalent than personal protection.

A well placed round is a well placed round. 9mm hollow points center mass vs a .40, .357, .45 will yield similar results.

In using a 9mm you do have to be much more selective with your ammunition. Reviewing ballistics tests are a good place to start. Hence, my golden saber choice.

IF the adrenaline is pumping and all of that shooting range practice goes in the toilet and you are sending bullets all over the place,then I would agree that a larger caliber bullet will be much more beneficial.

Flip side on a carry weapon is that you usally have 15 9mm rounds, to about 7 45 rounds, and 12 .40 rounds.

If money were no object i would go with a .40, but 9m are much cheaper to practice with.

I choose to rely more on my skilz than my bullet size. Those of you that aren't cheap bastards like me can rely on both.

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523389)

The average defensive gun fight consists of 3-4 rounds, those 15 rounds aren't necessary but are popular in the movies. Shot placement is great but shooting at the range isn't going to help that. When you are in a gun fight you are not standing still, you're moving around, the tunnel vision kicks in and you're shooting for center of mass. Two in the chest and one in the head is fun in the movies but it isn't reality. All I'm saying is that if you are going to carry something and you've already made the moral decision that you'll take a life to protect yours or someone else's why not give yourself the best odds? I hope those skilz don't let you down when you most need them.

Originally Posted by jtothawhat (Post 523433)

I have a Springfield XD9MM Sub-Compact with night sights, and SureFire X400 Light, also with a 15 round extended clip. I really don't like the feel of it honestly, i'm used to Beretta 9MM..

As far as .45 Ammo etc, a lot of police sway away from it as well as the Military due to exactly what was stated penetration value. You're responsible for your round, if one misses the target and goes into a wall...it will keep traveling, and could hit an innocent person. I stick to 9MM ammo for that reason.

You're lucky you have concealed carry...IL sucks!

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523447)

9mm penetrates more, not less than the .45acp.

Originally Posted by rmcelwee (Post 523468)

Yes, I have my CWP and if you see me you can bet that I am carrying (I don't EVER leave home without it). I carry a tiny P32 but I have a big dick so that makes up for it...


Not my gun or my hand - just posted so you know what size the thing is. 8+1 rounds of FMJ 32 ACP:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review...n_palm_350.jpg

Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523461)

Do hollow-points decrease penetration?

What about a heavier bullet?

This is the last thing i want to have happen in a life threatening situation. Maybe i come out okay but some pregnant chick passerby gets hit with one of my strays. Absolutely what i do not want.

Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523470)

How do you carry? Pocket pistol?

Originally Posted by rmcelwee (Post 523575)

Yes, in a holster similar to this. I practice pulling the gun out (impossible to do in jeans if I am sitting) and firing three quick shots from the hip without aiming.

Originally Posted by elesjuan (Post 523699)

Do you just slip that into your back pocket? While I've never tried to pull something like that out of my pocket quickly that holster almost seems like it could be a hindrance?

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523365)

.45 acp 230 grains @ 900fps is about the best people stopper out there. Tons of knock down force and no over-penetration (like 9mm does).

Originally Posted by DocGKR

Originally Posted by DocGKR
When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/q...comparison.jpg

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: FBI Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness - FirearmsTactical.com .

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/q...panded_JHP.jpg

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)

.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

----------------------------------------

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523761)

Here's what you really need to be carrying, .500 S&W Magnum! 700 Grains at 1200 FPS! I'm been joking around with the idea of getting a shoulder holster for carry. :) The thing is a beast, you really don't want to shoot it more than a few rounds at a time. Gonzo!

Originally Posted by BradC (Post 523766)

False, false and false. No handgun round is "the best people stopper". Handguns rounds are not a terribly effective man stopper, shot placement is key. Unless you disrupt the CNS, a .45ACP, .45GAP, .40S&W, .357SIG, 9mm, etc will have similar terminal performance.



Shoot what you feel comfortable with.

With that said...

I normally have an XD9 @ 3 o'clock (soon to be an M&P 9 once the PT.com ones are in) and a Ruger LCP in front left pocket.

Originally Posted by SKMetalworks (Post 523778)

Good read thanks.

Originally Posted by BradC (Post 523766)

False, false and false. No handgun round is "the best people stopper". Handguns rounds are not a terribly effective man stopper, shot placement is key. Unless you disrupt the CNS, a .45ACP, .45GAP, .40S&W, .357SIG, 9mm, etc will have similar terminal performance.

Shoot what you feel comfortable with.

Originally Posted by thymer (Post 523761)

Here's what you really need to be carrying, .500 S&W Magnum! 700 Grains at 1200 FPS! I'm been joking around with the idea of getting a shoulder holster for carry. :) The thing is a beast, you really don't want to shoot it more than a few rounds at a time. Gonzo!

Originally Posted by cornercarvermx5 (Post 523830)

p.s. DO NOT DRY FIRE THE GUN. repeated dry firing can cause damage to the firearm. No gun was meant to be dry fired. Buy some snap caps and then you can practice all day long without damaging your gun.

edit: website for snap caps, they're pretty cheap too: Gun Holsters and Gun Magazines by Triple K :: Plastic Snap Caps

Originally Posted by cornercarvermx5 (Post 523830)

Actually that is not completely accurate....
You should account for hyrdostatic shock which is damage caused by a large enough ballistic pressure wave and is solely dependent on energy transfer of the bullet. This causes brain hemorrhages from chest wounds and if strong enough, neural damage to to hypothalamus and hippocampus.

Originally Posted by Agent Urey Patrick FBI from "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"

"Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet."

Originally Posted by DocGKR

kinetic energy is certainly important, as it is what allows the projectile to do work, however, in itself kinetic energy is not a wounding mechanism. On the other hand, temporary cavity is certainly an important wounding mechanism, especially in rifle calibers, as well as larger handgun calibers, however, with service handgun calibers, it is generally too small to cause significant wounding effects.

Originally Posted by cornercarvermx5 (Post 523830)

p.s. DO NOT DRY FIRE THE GUN. repeated dry firing can cause damage to the firearm. No gun was meant to be dry fired. Buy some snap caps and then you can practice all day long without damaging your gun.

Originally Posted by BradC (Post 523877)

Don't dry fire a rimfire. Use snap caps if that's what tickles your pickle.

Originally Posted by BradC (Post 523877)

Please go back and read the linked .pdf in my post.

To summarize:

Also, again from "DocGKR" (DocGKR is Dr Gary Roberts, and he has been involved in the scientific research of terminal performance for many years.)

Another source - The Myth of Energy Transfer


The general assumption, as pointed out elsewhere is that any modern center-fire pistol can withstand dry fire. Don't dry fire a rimfire. Use snap caps if that's what tickles your pickle.