The Navy seems like such a different world coming from Army. Interesting stuff Sam.

You mean like launching planes off a boat instead of driving tanks?

I've always been in awe of the sailors working the flight deck. They pull long shifts doing physically demanding work in one of the most dangerous work environments known (outside of the kill zone of a fire fight). Triple all of the above at night. OSHA would be in shock. You can't thank those guys (and now gals) enough.

No more of just how shit works in general. But yea that too. :loser:

This'll blow your mind.
We can launch 10 planes, and land 10 planes, all in about 15 minutes in complete radio silence... everything done by hand signals.

The majority of Naval Aviation flying tactics (regarding launches and landing) was developed back in early WWII. The way we "fly" around the boat hasn't changed much in 70 years.

EMCON, ie, radio silence was the only way they did business back in the day. The instant somebody transmitted, the entire enemy force would know exactly where you were. Battlegroups made of 20-40 ships would drive across an entire ocean and never talk to eachother save for MORSE CODE sent via signal lamps.

We still practice full flight operations in radio silence where everybody communicates visually. This requires all players to put on their big-boy pants and do their jobs as trained... but it's really not that big a deal.

I'm going to use some wikipedia here to save myself the typing and I've edited it a little for quicker reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_...air_operations

How to land for dummies:
Aircraft awaiting landing hold directly overhead the ship making lefthand turns. Aircraft typically hold in close formations of two or more and are stacked at various altitudes based on their type/squadron. Minimum holding altitude is 2,000 feet, with a minimum of 1,000 feet vertical separation between holding altitudes. Flights arrange themselves to establish proper separation for landing. As the launching aircraft (from the subsequent event) clear the flight deck and landing area becomes clear, the lowest aircraft in holding then descend and depart the stack in final preparation for landing. The pilots are actually looking down on the flight deck from above WATCHING VISUALLY the actions on the deck in order to time their arrival. Higher aircraft descend in the stack to altitudes vacated by lower holding aircraft. ALL THIS HAPPENS VISUALLY. As aircraft depart the bottom of the stack, they position themselves to arrive at the "Initial" which is 3 miles astern the ship at 800 feet, paralleling the ship's course. The aircraft are then flown over the ship and "break" into the landing pattern, ideally establishing at 50-60 second interval on the aircraft in front of them.[9]

The break is a level 180° turn made at 800 feet (300-500kts), descending to 600 feet when established downwind. Landing gear/flaps are lowered, and landing checks are completed. The pilot begins his turn to final while simultaneously beginning a gentle descent. When crossing the ships wake the aircraft should be approaching final landing heading and at ~350 feet. At this point, the pilot acquires the Optical Landing System (OLS), which is used for the terminal portion of the landing. During this time, the pilot's full attention is devoted to maintaining proper glideslope, lineup, and "angle of attack" until touchdown.

Maintaining radio silence, or "zip lip", during Case I launches and recoveries is the norm, breaking radio silence only for safety-of-flight issues.

How much jet fuel does an aircrft carrier burn through in normal peace time ops? And how often do they have to take on fuel?

That feels a little classified, now that i think about it...

I'm pretty sure the numbers aren't classified as fuel costs are a very regulated parts of dozens of budgets.

A Nimitz carrier holds about 4 million gallons of jet fuel.

Doing the conversion from lbs to gallons, Navy jets launch with anywhere from 2000gallons to 3000 gallons of gas... some more/some less, but more like 2500gallons is a good average. They burn roughly 80% it prior to landing with 300 gallons or so. On average, there are about 50 flights per day for an average flying day. That means burning 100,000 gallons per day. I know the math doesn't add up here, but you get the idea.

But, the ship NEVER wants to get low on fuel. All that fuel is a significant source of ballast and trim control for the ship... and you never want to run out of gas in case you're suddenly in major combat ops, your refueling ship breaks, you suffer a casualty, the fuel system breaks, etc...

The ship will refuel at least monthly if not more often.

Sam,
Since you brought up visual cues tell us a little about glidepaths, the LSO, and the meatball.

Exactly how long does it take to pump all that?

I have never served but I had the privilege of taking part in a Tiger cruise when the Eisenhower returned to port 7/09, returning from the Indian Ocean I believe. My brother-in-law was a Lt. Cmdr at the time, so I got to stay in a stateroom. It was amazing.

I was struck by the accessibility of anything that might require maintenance or repair. Everything was labelled.

The purple pipes for jet fuel were everywhere - it gets pumped all over the ship, all the time, for ballast adjustment right?

We were allowed on deck for a couple of demonstration landings, and for the shore flyoff of the squadron. Cat 3 had a problem during one launch of a single-seat hornet, it didn't launch, and the pilot sat there with burners on holding his handgrips for a good 45 seconds - that was a long 45 seconds. I am quite positive that the deck of a carrier during launch operations and will be the loudest place I have ever been. The noise level is surreal. It is a tangible, physical force.

There were only two low points - some douche threw a chem-light over both nights, requiring a full headcount of the ship at 4am. They were considering making them controlled items.

For those asking about how sea conditions can affect the carrier and flight ops, the PBS series Carrier has an entire episode around that. The carrier isn't running into huge breaking waves, but large long slow swells which make their recovery operation for airborne aircraft go from one hour to many. The deck is moving so much pilots keep bolting.

You'd never pump "all of it"... but the pumping capacity is robust. I was actually the Fuels Officer on Nimitz for about 6 months, so I've got a bit of inside info. If I remember correctly, there are 16 FUEL stations on the flight deck capable of refilling aircraft. All can be used simultaneously. There are also at least 3 in the Hangar bay... maybe 6. Navy aircraft actually can't refuel that fast. I think the numbers are fairly low... like 100 gallons per minute... which sounds fast until you think that some jets might need 3000 gallons. I takes FOREVER to refill a superhornet tanker.

The refueling systems are weak'ish because of simple engineering compromise. They only have to be able to be refueled as fast as they can be re-armed. It might take 30 minutes IN A RUSH to re-arm a plane... therefore any additional strength in the refueling system for higher pressures would be added weight for no time gain since they'd still be getting re-armed after they were full of fuel.

Air Force refueling systems on the other hand are CRAZY strong. Imagine refueling a C-5A at 100gallons per minute... they hold like 1,000,000lbs of fuel. Their fighters also refuel fast, which aids in mid-air refueling time, and all Air Force ordnance is loaded by hydraulic systems and can be re-armed (on the ground or in a Hangar) in way less time than Navy guys doing it on a flight-deck 50% no-shit by hand.

I've tried for an hour to write something that would make sense... but I just can't do it without large hand motions.

The meatball is system of lights on the port side of the ship that the pilot looks at to tell him how hi or low he is as he approaches the back of the boat. You might say... can't he just look at the boat and tell? Not at night he can't. And it's not like a runway where you can be "off" a little and it won't matter. Your aircraft has to be EXACTLY in the correct place within a few feet when it hits the flight deck.

There is also a system of lights that hangs down behind the boat that tells the pilot where he is left or right of centerline.

The LSO's are pilots that stand out on the back of the boat and visually look at the plane as it flies towards the ship. They can but don't always call out commands over the radio to the pilot. There is a very specific language they use, but basically the commands are slide left, slide right, too high, too low, more power, too cocked up, etc... Pilots must honor and react immediately to the commands of the LSO's no matter what they think they are seeing with their own eyes.

This is a Meatball... the yellow light in the middle is the one the pilots are looking at. I looks like a little line up this close, but because of the way the prism is designed, it looks like a round ball from far away. The entire vertical row of those yellow "bars" are lit all the time. You can only see the one you're in line with depending on how hi/low you are. You want the ball perfectly centered with the horizontal row of green lights.
http://www.navair.navy.mil/img/uploads/IFLOLS_2.jpg


I just found these. I had never seen them before. This is the real fucking deal. If you've been enjoying this thread, you need to take 20 minutes and watch.

Sam, great info but I meant how long does it take to fill the ship with fuel while in port?

Huh, my gay boss was a Yeomen in the Navy.

Ideally the ship pulls into port with full tanks or close to it unless they're going to be inport for a long time... like a reactor overhaul or something. If you drain the tanks, corrosion sets in HUGE. And carriers don't get fueled inport... in fact, I don't think even the smallboys get fueled at normal piers for their gas-turbines. They either have to hit a dedicated fuel pier on the way in/out of the harbor that is WAY far away from the normal piers, or they get refueled at sea... an we NEVER take on munitions pierside. All our ammo onload/offload happens at sea. It's for safety.

So there are a lot of homosexuals? Is HIV a problem in the Navy or do they get kicked out with a quickness if they test positive?

I would have thought they would be nuclear powered, like subs.

The carrier is nuclear powered. But it carries an immense amount of jet fuel. All of the tugs, cranes, etc you see on deck also run on jet fuel. It's very similar to diesel so diesel engines can run it with little or no modifications.

The videos samnavy linked to are the ones I was talking about. They are worth watching.

Another interesting thing about the carrier I forgot to mention was that there are TV's everywhere tuned to the flight deck. It was somewhat hard to find a public space that did not have a live feed of the flight deck in view.

Wait, you are loading ordnance by hand on the carrier??? What kind of ordnance are we talking here? Sidewinders, Mavericks, Harpoons? When I was stationed in the SAM site, no way the shooter boys could load an MIM-23 by hand, they relied on the M-501 loaders. Granted, it is huge at 1400lbs each, but then again I've never seen a missile carried by a tactical jet in person.

Being HIV+ is a disqualifying entry condition to the military, but they don't kick you out anymore. You have to stay healthy and can't serve on ships or go overseas... it's very career limiting for enlisted guys.

All of our carriers are currently Nuclear powered. The USS Kitty Hawk was the last conventionally powered ship (fuel oil and boilers). All of our Crusier/Destroyer/Frigates are gas-turbine. All subs are Nuclear. Amphibs are all conventional. LCS are gas-turbine-hybrid-bullshit. Mobius' comments are correct.

When I say "load by hand", I mean that they are physically pulled on carts out to the jets, the loading system is manhandled to the jets, and yes, the smaller weapons are actually picked up and attached by hand. There is a winch system for the larger ones.
http://ootp.files.wordpress.com/2010...nce_100128.png
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/...0f83d2fe86.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...18A_Hornet.jpg


Here is the electric winch system they use for the bigger ones... you can see the cradle around the bomb.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...8B_Harrier.jpg

Here's how the Air Force does it.. FAGS!
http://www.mountainhome.af.mil/share...-JI436-126.JPG

There is some severe bad-assery going on here. Thanks Sam!

The "ball" is gyro-stabilized to help with swells. But there are limits. Pitching deck ops are when you near those limits. That's when the LSO's really earn their pay (night time also).

Navy, especially carriers, are bad ass. It's like living in NYC, it never sleeps. Plus, you're always on a semi-wartime footing. For one thing, the operations are just plain hazardous. On top of that, the slightest little thing happens somewhere in the world and there you are. There were two reasons I went Navy instead of AF back in the day:
1. Tougher training (I spent nearly two years in flight school and a year at the F/A-18 RAG before hitting the fleet);
2. Tougher ops . . . you're going to actually use what you learn.

With the big wars we've had lately, there has been combat for all of the armed services. But, under normal peacetime, it's the Navy and USMC that shoulders the load.

I remember back in the late-80s, I flew down with a wingman to Homestead AFB to be an aggressor for a day. They had F-15 squadrons down there. Huge, 40-pilot squadrons with beautiful, luxurious buildings and all the trimmings. All the AF guys wore ascots and looked prim and proper. After one of the debriefs, I asked them where they normally deployed and what their main mission was (I had just gotten back from a 6 month deployment). They were like "What's a deployment? We're here permanently to protect South Florida from Cuba." I think I laughed out loud.

And SF.

I'm mad I'm joining this thread so late.

I just completed primary at whiting field and selected Helos. Reading through this has me all motivated and geeked out. I wanted jets but got passed up, any words about the helo community for a noob?

All I can say is that after flying jets on sims for years, I got so hooked up with the Apache Longbow that I don't think jets are fun anymore.

hah, that was awesome :bowrofl:

From my personal experience and long time commitment to Battlefield Bad Company 2, 1 thing I can tell you is that flying an Apache without a gunner if very limiting so don't do that.

Also, if under attack and you get locked on and have already sustained damage, just hit 'E' to eject and then spacebar to deploy chute.



This thread is like the wikipedia of Samnavys life. :bowdown:

Rick, lay off the drugs bruh bruh

In the Navy, fighters are the glamour job. Always have been and, until completely phased out by UCAVs, always will be.

But, Helos are darn cool. Ironically, most of what I do now revolves around helicopters (I'm writing code for the TH-57D as we speak).

They fulfill a critical function in the Navy, and they fulfill equally critical functions on the outside. A jet guy is pretty limited in what they can do flying-wise on the outside -- mostly airlines. Not so for Helo guys. Recently, I've flown with guys and gals doing police work, utility work, forestry and firefighting, medivac, you name it.

So, keep going. You're doing great. Also, make use of those Navy auto hobby shops on base. I'd give my left nut for a lift.

The AF one on the base I'm at now charges a retarded amount. $10 to mount MY OWN TIRE. Just one.

Greatest thread evar!

I thought this had the most business being here of any thread.

This video is fresh (for the public). It was made just six weeks ago in the Atlantic, just off Newport News (Hampton Roads), Virginia .

These are the latest sea trials of the F-35B on the USS Wasp. They were very successful, with 74 VL's and STO's in a three week period. The media and the program critics had predicted that we would burn holes in the deck and wash sailors overboard. Neither of which happened. You will notice a sailor standing on the bow of the ship as the jet rotates. That was an intentional part of the sea trials.

The USS Wasp is an amphibious assault ship designed to embark a Marine Expeditionary Unit. It is capable of simultaneously supporting rotary and fixed wing STOVL aircraft and amphibious landing craft operations. For this test deployment the USS Wasp was outfitted with special instrumentation to support and measure the unique operating environment as the F-35B conducted short takeoffs and vertical landings.

No catapult...... No hook ......

Seen that F-35B video before, so badass. They make it look easy...just like Battlefield 2. There's 6 of the F-35A's at the base I'm at now, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm somewhere else by the time they get things spun up and the jets flying.

Sexy but I'm in for keeping the cool shit we have a secret ;)

When I was on Nimitz, we did a little show and tell for a few groups who were in the F35 program... brought them up to the flight deck during flight ops and what not. I learned a lot that day, but the engineers who'd worked on the plane for a decade had never been in the "environment"... they learned plenty.

The thing that will surprise you is this.
The F35B STOVL weighs about 38k-40k when it lands vertically at the end of it's mission.
The CH53 Sea Stallion has a max takeoff weight of 74k lbs. The amount of air a 53 moves when doing it's thing is something that can't be described. They are so massive, and to be standing next to one with those enormous rotors whipping around is enough to make you religious right on the spot. H60's by comparison are mere toys.

Burning holes in the deck was never a concern. Harriers weigh well under 20k when landing vertically and the seawater:heat converter panels in the flight deck have functioned fine on them for years. It's not like the planes sit there for minutes or hours on deck blasting away vertically. They only rotate the nozzle immediately prior to applying power. The front fan has no exhaust heat coming from it.

Back in the day, it was Ospreys that were going to be be burning holes in decks... nothing could be further from the truth. You can walk right up to the nacelle of a turning Osprey in shorts and be fine. They do hang a motor over the side because of deck spacing issues, but not due to heat generated. It's not even remotely a concern. They've even gone so far as to put a shielded venturi device on the exhaust that draws air in and mixes it with the exhaust to additionally cool... just take a look at your average F250 diesel... same thing on the exhaust tip except the truck uses it to disperse the exhaust visibility.

Hell, I've only ever had one hangfire... that's when I push the button to launch the plane and nothing happens. It was a Superhornet, afterburner takeoff... and he sat there for 53 seconds on the JBD (jet-blast-deflector) and it wasn't an issue. The technology to dissipate the heat is old-skool and foolproof. And the heat from a modern Hornet was nothing compared to a Tomcat or Phantom.

http://www.aviationspectator.com/fil...-Tomcat-63.jpg
http://www.paylesstax.com/images/ima...ier_maint.jpeg
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/...anding_800.JPG
http://image.motortrend.com/f/178974...haust_tips.jpg

I though only the AF had the F-35, or am I thinking of something else?

There are 3 VERY DIFFERENT versions of the F35. Below is from Wikipedia... there are also a few export versions that other countries will buy.

Note the internal fuel of the F35C... thats more internal fuel than a Hornet with 3 droptanks.

F-35A AIR FORCE
The F-35A is the conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant intended for the US Air Force and other air forces. It is the smallest, lightest F-35 version and is the only variant equipped with an internal cannon, the GAU-22/A. This 25 mm cannon is a development of the GAU-12 carried by the USMC's AV-8B Harrier II. It is designed for increased effectiveness against ground targets compared to the 20 mm M61 Vulcan cannon carried by other USAF fighters.
The F-35A is expected to match the F-16 in maneuverability and instantaneous and sustained high-g performance, and outperform it in stealth, payload, range on internal fuel, avionics, operational effectiveness, supportability, and survivability. It is expected to match an F-16 that is carrying the usual external fuel tank in acceleration performance. It also has an internal laser designator and infrared sensors, equivalent to the Sniper XR pod carried by the F-16, but built in to reduce radar cross section.
The A variant is primarily intended to replace the USAF's F-16 Fighting Falcon. It is also to replace the A-10 Thunderbolt II starting in 2028.

F-35B MARINE CORPS
The Pratt & Whitney F135 engine with lift fan, roll posts, and rear vectoring nozzle, as designed for the F-35B, at the Paris Air Show, 2007
The F-35B is the short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) variant of the aircraft. Similar in size to the A variant, the B sacrifices about a third of the other version's fuel volume to make room for the vertical flight system. Takeoffs and landing with vertical flight systems are by far the riskiest, and in the end, a decisive factor in design. Like the AV-8B Harrier II, the B’s guns will be carried in a ventral pod. Whereas the F-35A is stressed to 9 g, the F-35B is stressed to 7 g. The F-35B was unveiled at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth plant on 18 December 2007, and the first test flight was on 11 June 2008.

F-35C NAVY
The F-35C carrier variant features larger wings with foldable wingtip sections, larger wing and tail control surfaces for improved low-speed control, stronger landing gear for the stresses of carrier arrested landings, a twin-wheel nose gear, and a stronger tailhook for use with carrier arrestor cables. The larger wing area allows for decreased landing speed while increasing both range and payload. With twice the range on internal fuel as the F/A-18C Hornet, the F-35C achieves much the same goal as the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet.

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...ariants_lg.jpg

http://www.murdoconline.net/pics/f35variants-thumb.jpg

http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/v...35variants.jpg

Holy crap. 20K#'s fuel! Would have killed for that. I remember being below my fuel ladder while taxiing to the catapult.

Arise and walk!

This was relevant to this thread and didn't need to be in a new one. And I missed this thread discussion and wanted it to remain active.

C-130 from an aircraft carrier? I didn't know they ever tried this.

IIRC it was an A model (3 bladed prop) and I don't think it was ever done with the later variants. I spent 6yrs on C130, KC135 (not too age myself).

The early A model had the best short field 'oomph' and the later 4 bladed versions had more cruise. Lost track of everything beyond the E models.

Unwarranted thread necro:

I happened across this thread while searching for something peripherally related.

I don't recall having seen that video the first time around.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

That is all.



(Sidebar: I was just reminded of the day that the first Best Buy store opened in Gainesville, FL in the late 1990s. They had Amiga 500s in stock. I bought one. [/relevance])

Since Joe revived this thread right after I re-watched this old clip, I figured I'd post it. This is what happens when an arresting gear snaps. Watch the guy in yellow closely.

i don't have the bandwidth to stream YT out here... I suspect it's the one where a Hornet parts the wire... one dude jumps the wire and another guy gets taken out. The dude who got hit and went down was a Chief with my old squadron... he lived but was medically retired a few years later.

The wire is the weakest link in the entire arresting gear system. If something goes wrong, you want the wire to break vice the aircraft of the machinery below-decks. The drawback is that people on the deck can get hurt when the wire recoils. It happens very rarely, but it happens.

What happens to the aircraft in this situation after it (I'm assuming) takes a swim?

Yeah, it goes off the end into the drink, and the pilot punches out from about 10 feet and 10 knots.

Which reminded me a bit of another video you won't be able to see, in which the BN of an A6 partially ejects through the canopy (whereupon his chute then deploys and fouls the tail), and the pilot brings it back down onto the deck



Irish Luck - Surviving Partial Ejection from A-6 Aircraft

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406854481

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406854481

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1406854481

He survived, and was back in the air in 6 months.

Yup, the dude was totally unconscious the entire time. The pilot couldn't do anything for him... gonna find out how good you really are at a time like that.