Why wouldn't I just increase my contribution to my 401k or IRA or whatever?

https://www.policygenius.com/blog/be...e-investments/

If you're talking about the "roundup" method, I'd ask myself if i always pay off the credit cards i link. Otherwise, you're going to pay some interest to borrow that money. Not the wisest way to increase wealth.

As for the rest, you can invest directly with companies like Vanguard in those same index ETF and not have the monthly fee. Note, they tell you the etf fees are seperate.

That said, the concept is interestingly similar to the old savings account concept some of us grew up with. A little over a long time = a lot. In this case, given the market the = could be less.

Just my thoughts.

because who wants pre-tax contributions that are easy, when you can invest chump change post-tax and get taxed on it again!

ugh, I've lost about $10K in my IRA in a year's time. why did I click this thread, then go look?!

Can you invest in Vanguard in small amounts like that. I'm looking at it now and the $3k minimum investment seems standard.

No.

Like others,I'd advise you to just increase your IRA or 401 contributions. But hey it's your money.

I'm trying to start a savings plan for a downpayment in the next 5 years. I invest as much as my employer will match in my 401k but am looking into other savings/investment vehicles.

Vanguard has some options with lower minimums, iirc

I think I originally set up my Vanguard with a $1000 dollar deposit into a 2050 fund or something along those lines. You can use your Vanguard as a mini bank, deposit money in there however you can until you get to the minimum to buy into a fund. Once you get a fund set up you can automate however much you want, $100 a month, $500 a month, etc.

I started a separate savings account to direct deposit a portion of my paycheck into, when I reach the investment minimum I'll probably transfer it to a Vanguard index fund.

Sounds like a good plan. I had several friends that loved the ING Direct online savings accounts, but I don't know how it has changed since it got rolled into Capital One.

I read about those. I have a local credit union I've been with forever. I opened an extra savings account online and am ready to go.

Out of the 5 or so mutual funds i have, Vanguard growth index and Selected Funds (sel am shares) have done the best. I did a one time deposit to each right before the tech bubble burst. It took some time to recover from that. Since then, the two above have weathered just about every market down turn.

I've had Vanguard for years. They seem to weather the downturns better than most other funds. Fidelity (my 401k) has absolutely sucked at that aspect.

+1 to fidelity sucking. I invested in their agg growth fund. Made $360 in SIXTEEN years on a 3k investment. At least it is in the black now. On the other hand, that selected funds has made 3.4 times my initial investment.

ETrade does a thing where they take the cash balance of your brokerage account and (daily) put it into an interest bearing account called a "sweep" account. it's automatic and, i'm sure, very low interest, but at least it aint sittin idle while you wait.

I'm gonna push pretty hard to save the minimum. Trying to get to it in a year, so either way it won't make much different.

So basically growing up a poor immigrant I have issues with spending money that I have, I could not have shiny things when I was young so want shiny things now. My wife is an American Air force brat with parents that never had a budget. To curtail that we hide money from ourselves.

1. We only keep enough in our Checking account to pay monthly bills. Only use CC's with like 2 or 3% returns for any purchases and pay them off monthly.

2. The wife and I have a savings account in Ally since it has a good return. Pump money into it from every paycheck automatically and every time it reaches 10k move it to Fidelity and buy moar Vanguard total market funds.

3. We both do about 10% to our 401k. Should do moar but meh.

I will chime in with something appropriate to the conversation that may help some in their mid-20's or younger but is already too late for others... join the military.

Specifically, if you have a college degree, join as an officer. If you can get a ROTC scholarship or acceptance to an academy or officers school and be commissioned by 23, with guaranteed promotion and yearly raises, retirement as an O-4(Major/LCDR) or O5(LtCol or CDR) at the 20yr mark with a guaranteed paycheck forever, plus cheap medical insurance for life, and the unlimited bennies of being a veteran, having base access, social networking, friends everywhere, etc... you're not doing yourself any favors by not looking into it.

If you ever get stationed in a state with no income tax, get a drivers license and register to vote there... and never pay state income tax again no matter where they send you. All Naval Aviators are residents of either Texas or Florida for that very reason.

If you manage to stay single, you'll be downright rich at the end of 20yrs if you're smart and don't buy a new M3 every time they offer it in a new color (Air Force fags).

Sure, there are plenty of downsides, including deployments, lots of moving, tough on families, long hours, etc... but shit man, 40 is the new 30. I come from seriously excellent genes and barring catastrophe, should live to 100 and still slayin' it in the bedroom. I will be retired from the Navy in July of 2020 at the age of 43, and collect +/-$40k yr right away for doing nothing. Yes, $40 fucking thousand dollars a year as long as I'm breathing... and I even get a raise on that every year too, though it's not very much.

Yup, I'll need to get another job and work for another 15 or so, but as a retired military guy, just about anybody will pay me $75k yr to do just about any damned thing just because. Don't get me wrong, we save a shit-ton of money, and my wife goes back to work full-time next year as my youngest hits 1st Grade and can now ride the bus to/from with her sister. Here's another helpful life hint from a Navy guy...MARRY A FUCKING NURSE, THANK ME LATER.

Would they take a 33 year old with a creaky knee?

Yes; they'll even take a 36 year old with a cranky knee.

They won't take a 37 year old in perfect health though.

If I choose to retire at 38 years old as a Major, I can start collecting my $36k/year at age 50. If I stick around and retire as a LTC at 43 years old, then I get to start collecting my $40k+/year immediately.

Sam is right. Believe in Sam.

I didn't marry a nurse, though; I married an exceptional business woman. She's not great with money, so she gives me her paycheck and in return, I give her an allowance.

I never thought retirement could look so "reachable".

Not a bad point. My Father in Law was in the Chair Force for 29 years, retired as a Captain, then worked for Army...uhm 'intelligence' as a 'Computer person' retiring from there at 62. He makes as much money from both his pensions as I do (well did) and never has to touch his ridiculous amount of investments. Oh and they lived all over the world which was cool.

SO yeah, military and then do government work. There are not many places you will get a pension anymore....mine was rolled into my 401k :( But I am a dumb computer geek.

Also if you work for a railroad company like BASF or something, you will get 2 pensions after 5 years. Yeah 2. One from the company and one from the Railroad....I am in the wrong business.

If you are saving for a down payment with a time horizon of 5 years or less I would keep it all in cash. short term market fluctuations could easily put you in the red over that time frame.

On a complete side note: I have recently changed my strategy for attaining financial independence to a portfolio with a heavy real-estate tilt. I am currently closing on my first house which is a single family with a 2/1 mother-in-law suite above the large garage. I plan to house hack by renting out the main house for more than the mortgage while living in the mother-in-law and using the garage for myself! Winning!

I plan to purchase more properties in my area that should provide me with both cash flow and capital appreciation. I decided to take this route because I believe I am able to use relatively safe leverage to increase my return above the market indexes. I have a lucrative W2 job that will provide great starting capital and continued cash flow while I build up my portfolio. Anyone considering this route should obviously do a ton of research so that they understand the numbers, all the costs, the associated effort involved with different strategies, and the risks. My job is related to analysis, controls, and risk management so I have the skill set to make this work in a relatively safe and consistent manner but YMMV.

I have a buddy who is great with money and another who is terrible with it. Ryan G is great with it, but my other buddy keeps his cards maxed and spends like a Marine on shore leave. He joined The Corps at age 17 right out of high school and retired as a gunnery sergeant at age 37 and gets a pension check every month. He works a regular management job, too. He just refinanced his house he's been in for 10 years, for another 30! He's single and has a nice truck and sports car financed, has a company truck provided to him, and is building a racecar. He even finances furniture, including leather sofas and a 72in television.

It drives me nuts but it isn't my life. He probably couldn't stand the way I do things either, lol.

Craigslist furniture bro. Its all free.

And come with fleas, bed bugs, and cum stains from your mom.

Just more free features

While I wasn't quite poor, and certainly not an immigrant (gross...), I had a very humble upbringing, financially speaking. I was taught the importance of saving while still balancing hobbies. I never really had anything fancy or expensive. I never quite balanced the hobby aspect, and can barely talk myself into buying FM VMaxx coilovers... :giggle:

Fast forward 34 years, I make a decent salary for my area, have zero debt, one very low limit credit card, pre-paid cell phone, no car payment, no cable TV, cook 90% of my meals, and my share of rent is less than a BEGi SGDP.

I don't participate in my employers 401K, as it's a lowly $0.13 on the dollar match, but I can contribute up to 50% of my salary and they'll still match that. I don't have a Roth IRA, IRA, and have no investments other than an old 401k making ~7% (~$15k currently). Instead, I've programmed my brain to automatically send 40% of my take-home pay directly into a savings account. Currently, I could buy a brand new Z06 in cash.

This is an awful investment strategy, and I know this. It's better than nothing, but I know I could be making a bunch of cash with some basic investing. I need some help, and am clearly risk averse where money is concerned.

That's where funds like Vanguard can help. They manage the portfolio based on your risk tolerance using a mix.

So this is a very good start and you have the mentality to save but you are basically putting your money in a sock under your mattress. In a short time that money is actually worth less and less because of inflation. Make it work for you by putting into the Vanguard vehicles that rleete just mentioned. Something that is a total market index fund or something like that. It will at least grow with the economy and in the long term you are making more of it.

If you a crazy survivalist you can buy silver, gold and ammo...you know for the end times. :giggle:

I think if you're hedging your bets on gold and silver, then you're limiting yourself. Gold and Silver are worth money in a functional society, so by hoarding them, you're holding out for a functional society after the dollar inflates itself into oblivion - while it certainly is possible that the dollar inflates itself into oblivion, I think it's a far less likely "end game". Among other possible end games are the military destruction and collapse of the state. If the U.S. were indeed physically forced into psychological, social, governance, and electronic collapse by the combined power of the rest of the world, then what do you do with your gold and silver? You're probably not going to be able to walk/drive it to Canada - they are either with us or against us, and if they are with us, then they have fallen as well. Selling your gold to the mexican cartels? Good luck - once they understand that you're selling gold, it's "bye bye, head". What about other scenarios - a disease wipes out the global population and lets say you're one of the few to survive - what are you going to do with that gold? Plant it and hope it grows into apple trees? Cook it and eat it? Use it as a weight in a deadfall trap? (At least that's a practical use for it) What if you're one of the real knuckleheads who has *invested in gold* without having it physically present with you? How do you get your gold when the EMP takes out the computer systems that say you own the gold in someone else's possession on the other side of the continent?

I think if you invest in ammo, you're also limiting yourself. I admit in a SHTF scenario it's value and use is far greater than extremely heavy precious metals, but how well does ammo appreciate in value? How well do you turn your ammo back into cash when, in an almost certain-to-happen scenario, shit doesn't hit the fan in your lifetime?

I would say that the wisest use of money is to invest in slaves - now black people don't get all amnesia-ey and say "You're a racist" and stupid shit like that - slaves come in all colors - white people were slaves wayyy before they got the idea to turn black people into slaves. Slaves can earn you money in a non-SHTF situation in order to return your original investment in a very short time period. Slaves can then continue working and earn you a sizeable profit. If you are ever in need of a quick buck, experienced and fit slaves stand a chance of repaying their initial investment instantly if you ever need to sell them (especially if they were originally bought young). Slave reproduce and make more slaves (again, another source of income generation). If you ever are in a SHTF situation, correctly disciplined slaves will provide defense so you can sleep at night. If you ever are in need of a food source, slaves make for a great lean meat that you can eat as steaks, cook in a stew, or smoke into a delicious jerky. You can then use the less edible parts for fish bait or predator bait. The absolute best part about slaves (in my opinion) is that they can carry your gold and silver and bullets for you when you need to leave for Canada (and they don't even need their own horses!)

If you are morally opposed to buying slaves, then I say put your money in a sock under your mattress - or buy farmland in an area certain to be hit by urban sprawl in the next 20-40 years and lease it out to a farmer. The farmer will pay your mortgage payments for you while maintaining the property tax under the lesser of assessed value or CAUV.

^ I like this guy.

I heard Jack Daniels is a good end times bartering tool. It is also a good way to disarm an end times foe.

Just stumbled upon this.
I finished my student loans today, so that feels nice. In Iceland we have a mandatory retirement fund owned by the country. But then I put about additional 400$ every month into optional retirement fund with Allianz in Germany. Which means that I have two retirement accounts, the optional one giving me a lot more back, plus my employer pays an extra 2.4% of my paycheck into each retirement fund.

So like things are going now my retirement should be going smooth even if I go into retirement a bit early.

I just found this thread also. Good read.

Makes me wonder if I made a huge mistake. I just opened a Roth IRA through Ameriprise. Sent them the initial deposit of $3500. It has 2.something% expense ratio. I already have a Vanguard mutual fund, I probably should have just started my own IRA there!

I am currently putting 15% away into retirement, split about 50/50 between my company's 401k and this new Roth IRA. No company match on the 401k.

Beyond that, I save another 10% or so that I split into a bunch of different accounts so I never feel like I have much money because no accounts ever have a balance over $10k. Overall net worth just passed $100k though, which I think is pretty good for being 30 and really only starting to increase my savings rate over the last couple years. I do make it a point to increase my savings percentage whenever I get a raise, though.

2%+!! So every year, rain or shine, good or bad you have the privilege of giving someone 2%+ of your money?

Have you figured out how much you need to outperform the market to cover the expenses?

The historical performance of this particular fund was about 12% if I remember right, and it was my first try picking a fund on my own so I didn't realize just how high that expense ratio was.

https://www.betterment.com/pricing/

https://investorjunkie.com/8745/betterment-review/


I've been doing a lot of reading on financial planning and investing and have heard a few people raving about this company. 0.15-0.35% fees based on your balance with a minimum of $100 per month auto deposit.

Whats your guys take on this? I'm thinking of moving from my funds from my current adviser to this to reduce my fees.

That seems very reasonable. I was with Valic and they charged me 0.60% to manage my investments. Now I got a new job and I am looking at transferring my assets somewhere else. 0.15-0.35% is not bad.

Skidude, open a Roth IRA at Vanguard and roll that other IRA into it ASAP!

I literally just opened it, won't I incur some penalties? I think I have to wait a year before I can do anything. Like, my deposit is split into 2 checks and I'm not even sure the second one has cleared yet.

You might be stuck for whatever the minimum is (timewise). Any fund you can invest in through Ameriprise should be available through Vanguard I would guess.

I think you should be able to transfer it into another similar account without penalty.

The number one thing, #1, regarding returns on investment vehicles is the fees/load they put on it. Use an index fund with the lowest expense ratio you can find. Paying someone to actively manage your money is good for them and bad for you. Unless, perhaps, you know the dudes making the nano-second trading decisions - then it might be profitable to get in on that. But for the rest of us mortals, keeping as much of their hand as possible out of our pie is the way to maximize returns to ourselves.

Anyone here ever rented their property through a rental management agency? We're thinking about moving within the next 1-2 years, and I'm kicking around the idea of renting our current home through a management agency instead of selling. If the fees are on the high end (12% plus one month's rent) it would marginally beneficial. It would be more attractive if I found a good agency at the lower end of the typical fee structure (9-10%).

Question about taking out a loan on a 401k for a down payment. Is this a reasonable thing to do? What are the pros/cons. I've been reading about it lately, but can't wrap my head around the whole paying back the interest to yourself.

It's a pretty good idea if you absolutely need the money right now, and have the means to pay it back. I seem to remember reading something about a pretty strict schedule for payback, and if you don't, there are early withdrawal fees, which are killer. Seek the advice of the manager of the 401k. Places like Fidelity do have some good advisors to set you straight on all the regulations.

What you don't want to do is use that money for something like a car or boat. Then you're just hampering the growth of your retirement, because that money isn't growing in the account. But a house is (usually) a pretty good investment.

Wouldn't recommend robbing your retirement for a down payment - not unless you've encountered a new and substantial increase to your income which will allow you to manage the finances easily, but which might take you a year to save up the 20% down for the jumbo loan and you simply don't want to wait. If you didn't have the down payment saved up in the first place, then how will you begin making monthly payments on the new home AND paying back the 401k loan afterwards while still making contributions to that 401k?

We've got a retirement fund that would easily allow us to make a down payment on a home in the price range that we are looking, but we're attempting to save up the money independent of the retirement account. I want a much nicer home than I currently have, but I'm not willing to sacrifice my retirement account and future payments into that account to do so. Ideally we'll have enough saved up that when we see our next substantial increase in income we'll be able to put our saved money in as the down payment and make monthly payments based on the increased income without taking anything away from our planned retirement contributions.

Dammit, I asked a question first.

Thats kind of what I thought. A house is usually a good source of capital (unless the market shits itself again). I'm obviously also trying to save cash on the side, but with the way house prices are rising around here we are going to need a significant down payment to avoid shitty interest rates.

Substantial increase in income would be my gf getting a job that would close to double our current combined income (this is 3+ years out). So we would go from me being the only one who had extra money (she is an EMT and makes not much more than minimum wage currently).

Basically we would be able to afford twice the mortgage, but wouldn't have the downpayment right then.

mgeoffriau. Totally anecdotal, but my uncle rents a few houses through property management companies and has had a hell of a time finding one that works for him. From what I have heard of his troubles I would gladly pay a few percent more for a well reviewed agency that was known for good work.

You are required to make it whole. The money should be (theoretically) earning interest while in your 401k. If you take money out then it has lost that opportunity for a period of time and should be restored or made whole when you pay it back. It also deters people from using it as an ATM.

I would never use or recommend using the funds in your 401k at any time other than in a dire emergency. Thew penalties are far too great if unforeseen circumstances prevent you from replacing the funds.

If you can't afford something wait and save up the money to buy it. It's the right way. People always did that before the selfish baby boomers came along who demanded things right now. And nowadays instant gratification is so perverse that people pat their foot and complain the microwave oven takes too long.

Pretend like the money isn't there.

So you have to pay back the money you borrowed and some calculated interest that it would have made had you not taken it out?

Houses were also 10x cheaper before the selfish baby boomers came along and crashed the market :)

Here is another angle that happened to me.

I had to take some money out of my 401k, as a loan, to pay for the divorce proceedings.

2 months later I was laid off with no way to pay it back. Got charged as income/early disbursement (which means all normal taxes + 10% early withdrawal fee that aren't taken out when doing a loan)..................my taxes this year cost $4500 between Fed and State............I do not have a 6 figure income.

Yeah. Sounds like a decent amount of risk.

We are looking for property > everything. If we like the property we are both ok living in a single wide. Upside to this is we will both be really happy where we live. Downside is it is harder to get a loan on a shitty house that costs a lot (because of the property). Because of this we will probably need a full 20%+ downpayment. Guess I will just need to be saving longer/harder.

Would you prefer an answer with no experience/knowledge of the subject? I can usually B.S. with the best, but in this case I'd be flying blind. Bad information is worse than no information.

I mostly just want someone to very confidently tell me that it's not worth the hassle, so that I can stop considering it.

How far away from the house are you moving? How much equity do you have in it? I have never rented out any properties, but my parents have a few times, due to being Army and moving every 2 years. They always used a property management company and have usually been happy with them. One thing they did when the houses were near military bases were to make sure they only rented to military members. This made it much easier to sort out riffraff. A management company should do a decently good job of finding good tenant's, but it only takes one bad tenant to ruin the investment. Also you need to check with your mortgage company and verify that you are allowed to rent out the house, changing it to a rental can change the type of loan you need on it. Also can you cover a few months of mortgage payments if you don't have tenants in the house? I guess what I am trying to say is unless you are planning on keeping the house long term, you will probably be better off selling it when you move then holding for a few more years.

My wife and I own property back in NH that we rent on a short term basis (vacation rentals). The fee is pretty high as a % of the gross but not being there makes it a necessity to have some sort of representative. We look at it as a business and it more than pays for itself but we haven't had major repair expenses either.

1. You need to make sure the tenant is viable (credit checks + references).
2. You need to predict your maintenance costs fairly well and cover for them in your rent (after fees).
3. You need to have a good relationship with various repair types (plumber, heat/ac, electrician, handyman type) for those "oh shit" calls you will get when your 900 miles away and it's a Sunday...
4. Most agencies have either a relationship with a repair service (kickbacks) or a "division" that will handle repairs. Watch out, they will charge you dearly for anything.

From my personal experience, the maintenance aspect is what can quickly kill any net revenue.

Not sure if that helps you or not.

It does help. Mostly I just needed a reality check about how easy it seemed to be.

At this point I think it makes more sense to sell and transfer that equity into the primary residence.

Agreed.

My dad decided to cut me a break on the rent at his other place vs full price for normal renters because he knows he won't have to worry about anything.

I can't over emphasis the impact of "ah shit" maintenance issues on your sanity when you're 900 miles away and know how to fix things but can't... Disposal broke, call a plumber. No hot water, call a plumber. Tree falls over in a storm, call a tree service. Sounds like your dad is a smart guy...

Let's talk tax withholdings...

So getting a tax return at the end of the tax season is giving the government an interest free loan....
The safest way to set your withholding is to get as close to a $0 tax return or taxes owed at the end of the year.
The best way would be to withhold no taxes and save them in an savings account that will generate interest and have it set aside for tax season??

If that is the case, how many people use that approach? If you do, how do you properly set your allowances and withholding so that no taxes are removed from your pay check?

And where do you typically save the taxes that you set aside (I was thinking of putting it in a Betterment account ETF (0.25% management fee with about 80% bonds, 20% stocks).

If you are able to do that (an employee likely can't), then you'll need to make quarterly payments to the IRS. The gubmnt' wants their money NOOOOWWWW!!!