Fun family car: help me decide
 

I have an (essentially worthless) old beater car that qualifies for the "Cash for Clunkers" rebate passed recently by the House and Senate. Basically I am eligible for a $3500 credit towards a new car with EPA 22mpg or better or a $4500 towards a new car with EPA average 28 MPG or better if I turn in the old beater (good riddance!).

I never buy new cars due to the ridiculous depreciation, but my wife and I are ready to start a family and we really need a new or almost new car. The gov't rebate is tipping the balance towards new. We could reasonably afford to pay cash for a sub $20k car. Plan on keeping it for 10+ years assuming it continues to meet our needs.

Criteria:
Manual Trans
Enough power to get out of its own way
Room for 2 car seats + luggage in the back.
Red (wife's sole request)
Excellent reliability
Good resale value in case we out grow it or wreck it.

The Mazdaspeed 3 seemed to be the perfect answer. The price was abit of a stretch, but the wife approved of the expenditure. I thought heaven had finally smiled upon me, but alas avg EPA fuel econ does not qualify for the credit at at 20 MPG. Which was the whole reason for looking at new cars in the first place.

So far I have looked at:
2010 Mazda 3 - S Sport Hatch
2009 Honda Civic Sedan (LX & Si trim)
2010 Honda Insight Hybrid
2009 Toyota Corolla/Matrix S
2010 Ford Fusion S (2.5L 4-cyl 6speed manual)

I'll share my thoughts on each later, but I wanted to hear what you guys and to say first. Any other car I have over looked? Thanks!

I love the Volvos for family cars. An S40 with AWD and the turbo 5cyl would be a good one.
--Alex

FTW....I've been drooling over these the past few days...I think I found another contender in my hunt, R32 move over!! That thing is bad ass on many different level!

http://images.autotrader.com/images/..._A.565x376.jpg

http://images.autotrader.com/images/..._A.565x376.jpg

http://images.autotrader.com/images/..._A.565x376.jpg

http://images.autotrader.com/images/..._A.565x376.jpg

http://images.autotrader.com/images/..._A.565x376.jpg

http://images.autotrader.com/images/..._A.565x376.jpg

Yeah I like the Speed3 a lot but I have always liked hot hatches. My wife will need a new (used) car in a year or so since hers is getting up there on mileage. I would be looking at a Speed3 for her but she HAS to have an automatic :P

If you can live without the Speed3 power I would think the Mazda 3 5-door would be a good choice. My nephew has a Mazda 3 (4 door) and has been happy with it. Nice cars for the money. My brother (nephew's father) has put 250-300K miles (drives a lot for work) on a few 323s and Protoges (now Mazda 3) and they are very reliable.

Another vote for the MS3. My ideal fun daily right now.

Mitsubishi Lancer. The DE trim which has alloy wheels, 60/40 split rear seat (unfortunately not flat), 160hp mivec engine, 30mpg average per tank (I calculate that every tank of gas, best I've gotten is 32mpg), great fun on the road, but also comfortable for long trips, looks great in red, has a 5spd with an incredibly soft clutch, so it's not uncomfortable in stop/go traffic, they have an mp3 hook up (if it doesn't come with one, there's a $50 cable that'll plug into the factory harness), great reliability, and all for $18,000. But that's what I paid for mine which has a 6-disc in-dash cd player, fog lights, and a few other upgrades I can't think of. Love that car.

edit: I test drove the mazda 3, no way could I of afforded the ms3, much less the 2.3 mazda3, and although it gets slightly better gas mileage, different gearing plus a whooping 4 extra hp made the lancer seem much more fun.

the mazda 3 has one of the best interiors for the money imo. The tranny is alil nothcy overall but it does have decent power and the room and frugality you seek. Suspension brakes etc especialy with the 2.3 liter + models is pretty damn nice as well. The dif in the 2.3 is alot more than the stats sheet makes it out to be the bigger motor is so much nicer and all the shit if gives you rocks.

Of the cars *you* listed as options, either the Mazda-3 or the Ford Fusion. - The Fusion will not have the resale the Mazda will, however both are on the same platform and you might be able to get a better deal on the Ford.

- L

Mazda 3 hands down, whether it be the 2.3 or the MS 3 I don't think you will be disappointed.

I work with a lot of people that have the Civic Si and they all love it.

When I test drove the Si and the MS3 back to back the MS3 seemed better in almost every way though.

It would be hard to go wrong with the Si, not the fastest car in it's class anymore but still a darn good car.

Can I vote twice??


















MS3 AGAIN! (Sorry, just had to whore out this awsome pic I just found!! And for anyone interested, those are the MS6 stock rims painted gunmetal..) I think I'm in love..:drool:

More Here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/roberth...7605581578505/
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/...74063348_o.jpg

arg
 

Damn, just looked up the Subaru WRX, combined is 21, its like the government knew and just put the requirement one higher. And the 2010 speed3 is the same, someone in government hates fast turbo cars.

VW Jetta TDi.

I rocked my G/F's Mugen SI for awhile, and I LOVED that car. It wasn't fast, but it was a great car overall.

i searched this govt program quickly but some things are unclear.

the mpg rating;
is this city, highway, or combined?
what about hd trucks? my 3/4 ton wasn't even rated for any mpg.

I would vote Mazda 3 but not for the new ones with that stupid fucking smilie face. If you can get an 09 then you got my vote for that.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2439/...14799476_b.jpg
/thread

If you're looking for a good family car and a good price, look for a 94-97 4 door acura integra:
http://www.acuraworld.com/forums/att...a_gsrsedan.jpg
I replaced my PT Cruiser with a 96 integra 4 door, and I love it. It has a ton of space for 2 car seats in the back, a massive trunk, and a ton of aftermarket support. I put a B20B motor in it for $750, and gained a bunch of torque. You can easily throw a turbo on them, do a higher end motor swap, supercharge... the world is your oyster. A buttload of suspension upgrades, exterior upgrades... And you can get them for under $5000

P.S. - I realize you wanted new, but these really are a good family car.

What!? I love the 2010 MS3.


http://autoshow.roadfly.com/wp-conte...aspeed3-01.jpg

http://www.egmcartech.com/wp-content...3_images_3.jpg

Interior is my favorite new part. Love the double decker gauges, but not so much the wheel.

http://autoworld.files.wordpress.com...rior-img_7.jpg

My friend has one and hates it. Only 140k miles and he has gone through 2 transmissions, the paint is all kinds of messed up, its slow, its plain, interior is very plain even by 1990's Acura/Honda standards. I will say cleaned up with simple mods (and turbo) they can be pretty nice.

Like:

If you're looking at the Insight, what about a Prius?

[/nomex]

I'll vote, and both have been recommended,

Mazda3 S-2.3---I have one, in stick and love it. I picked up an '05 new, early in 06 and got it for 16k flat fully loaded. With your gov't rebate, ur looking at 12.5k which is a sick deal. 80k miles so far, no complaints. Though I gotta say, 2 carseats would make things a lil tight imo. The trunkspace is huge once you throw down the seats, BUT 2 carseats takes that option away and I see you wanting more room back there if you have 2 kids.

VW TDI Jetta Wagon---#1, I think this will meet your space needs much better. I have an 08 Jetta, and trunk space is great, with 2 kids I def wouldve gone wagon. Plus the TDI's weren't available. I have a 2.0T, DSG trans and love it. Drove manual, and liked it as well, but was not available at the time. You should be well under 20k with ur rebate and have everything you need.

Welcome to the world of kids! Well if you really need to fit 2 car seats I'd look at something more like the Mazda5. It's basically a low riding minivan that looks more like a Fit or a Vibe. My wife hates minivans, but she likes it. Lots of Miata guys move to it when they start having kids as you can get it with a 5speed and I think some of the Mazda 3 stuff will just bolt on. We have a 98 Accord and 1 car seat, but hoping for another child soon. Two carseats in a car even the Accord's size is going to be packed. You have to take into account ALL the other stuff like strollers. Doing a roadtrip this weekend and we pack that car to the brim with just one kid (stroller, high chair, Pack-n-Play, toys, suitcases. Anyway, Mazda 3 is a cool car, but I wouldn't try and put more than 1 kid/carseat combo in it.

Haha, I remember those days. That's why I said fuck it and bought an Expedition. Even the Pontiac Torrent we had before that was uncomfortable once you packed all the kids stuff in. My expedition however, we can load it and still have PLEEEENTY of space left. Gas mileage sucks but you have to give some where.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

Most people have recommended cars that were not on the list. That isn't helpful.

I have driven the Mazda 3 five door with the 2.3 and thought it was very tall for a sporty car, but quite roomy. The suspension isn't soggy like some entry level roomy cars because Mazda wants to eschew a sporty image. The seating position is very high. This gives it nice visibility, but makes it feel like it leans too much when you push it hard. You probably won't be autocrossing it so that shouldn't matter much. (BTW - for those of you touting the benefits of the MS3, it is a torquey brute in a straight line at the autocross, but also leans too much, and corners like crap on the hard stock skinny rubber. We put 17" wheels and Kumho MX's instead of the factory 18" and it did much better, but it was still heavy and very tall). The possibility of Ford parts sharing is frightening because I worked at an auto parts store during college and we sold a lot of Ford electronics and electrical parts.

I have driven the Matrix and was unimpressed by the shifter location and the driving position/ergonomics. The hard surfaces in the rear and fold down area on the seatbacks it seems would lead to loads shifting around, but would be utilitarian if you were hauling bricks(?). Overall, frumpy riding and unimpressive.

The Corolla was fine as a passenger, but I didn't drive it. I don't doubt it would be a reliable ten to fifteen year car. I liked the dash layout better than the Matrix, which is odd because they are supposedly related platforms. The Corolla has the typically firm Toyota seat bottoms, which is good for the long term structure of the seat, but can be less than desirable on very long rides. It has a cable throttle which would probably be more reliable than a fly-by-wire throttle. I like things simple because they break less and they are cheaper to fix if they do. The newest Corolla is less stodgy looking than it's predecessor, but not as sexy as the 3. And I think the utility of a five door wins over the argument for many people. But there is Toyota reliability.

The Fusion. The front end is uglier than homemade sin. And I have never had good long term luck with Ford plastics. From the switchgear to the electronics, to the interior panels, to the tendency of the underhood plastics to get prematurely brittle. I've owned four Fords. Never going to make that mistake again. But I keep vehicles longer than most people. And if you are talking about keeping it ten years, then you are going to keep it longer than most people also. Remember, they are all cute when they are puppies. What's it like when it's an old dog?

Honda Civic, like the Corolla will be typically very reliable and cheap to maintain. Both will be likely to be the least trouble-prone on the list. The Honda will probably have a firmer suspension than the Toyota, and they both have firm seats instead of cushy sofas. A finance guy I am friends with has had me ride along a couple of times in his. The power is more than adequate for on ramp merges and daily commuting, and the interior layout is nice. The windshield is really long front to back and is laid over at a steep rake. This is nice for aerodynamics and wind noise, but lets a lot of sunlight into your lap and onto the dash. Even with an extra tinting strip added to the top of the windshield, you can get a lot of UV on you in the front seat. This might be more important to me because I am in Florida and you are in Kansas. The dash is large because it is so long front to back. The back seat is quite roomy and has lots of legroom. Civics will also hold their value at the end of ten years pretty darn well. Honda has high marks for quality over time.

Insight? Heavier and more expensive than it needs to be with really skinny tires and a soft suspension. Nope. Not unless you start carrying a purse.

I have been a Toyota driver lately, but I think I would probably go with the Honda first and the Corolla second depending on how they felt to you and your wife to drive and how your child and gear would fit. Mazda 3 third, not because I dislike it, but thinking the long term reliability and cost to own might be a little higher. Matrix - not a fan. Ford - better than a Schwinn, but less reliable than one.

My wife asked to stop and look at a Suzuki SX4 five door the other day. That was a surprise. That would be a big change from her Montero Sport. I guess the advertising works.

+1

TDI averages 30+mpg, 50 on hwy. TONS of torque. A friend has one, really nice.

There are aftermarket turbo kits for the Mazda 3, a magazine ( cant remember which) recently did an install, and comparo.

just sell the kids.

LOL! I did not expect so many replies.

First, I don't have any kids yet, but are looking to have two a couple years apart. I imagine there will be two car seats for a while.

After thoroughly working over the cars on my list the Civic LX and Mazda3 5-Door are clear standouts. The Civic is a huge win in the money dept. The Mazda 3 trounces the Civic in the I'd actually want to drive it dept.

Regarding the Ford Fusion Lol @ "all cute when they are puppies" comment. Old Yeller any one?

Toyota Corolla, no way Jose. Underpowered and the suspension was way too soft. I took a mildly spirited test drive in an Corolla S. My take: Pathetic and soul sucking. Handling felt unsafe and it was easy to kick in the electro nannies.

Honda Insight would be fine around town. On ramp acceleration barely adequate. Less passenger room than civic. Handling sub-par, could definitely tell you were dragging around a heavy battery pack. Definitely, would be stuck in the slow lane on the freeway.

I appreciate the suggestions. Would not even consider a Volkswagon TDI, one would be very hard pressed to buy Diesel fuel around here. Total cost of ownership would not seem to favor this choice either.

Prius is roomier and claims better millage than the Insight, but looses just about every where else.

On the numbers game here's what it boils down too...

Black 2009 Civic LX for $15895 ($900 below invoice) Less $4500 credit.
$11,395 + Tax, Tag & Title

Red 2010 Mazda 3 5-Door for 18266 ($500 below invoice) Less $3500 credit.
14,766 + Tax, Tag, & Title


Driving wise, the Civic is acceptable and gets better millage. The Mazda 3 is way more car for around $3500 more out the gate. Better handling and braking, more power, more room, more attractive, but also more gas, more repairs.

Ugh, Help!

$3500? Hmm. That is a whole 'nother Miata. That's a lot of money in reality, and it's more than that when you add interest.

No loans. Straight up $3500. Not exactly chump change, but will only buy a tired old Miata.

Or a shitload of better go-fast parts and tires.

The Honda will absolutely retain its resale value better than the Mazda. Total cost of ownership over five years or so will be much less with the civic...

So exactly how does this "Cash for clunkers" rebate work? Is it only towards new cars or can you get if you trade in for a used car? I have a 00 F150 V8 that I no longer need. Id like to trade it for something more economical for my wife to DD and leave the Expedition in the drive way for long hauls or when I need to tow the Miata.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

Not doubting pricing changes, but 18+k for a Mazda3 S sounds a bit much. Rather than a 2010, look into a left over 08/09. Probably save yourself a cool 3-4grand.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I paid 16k flat for a fully loaded, brand new 05, in 2006.


And not to beat a dead horse, but I seriously think your overestimating the amount of room these cars have. 2 car seats in a 3, + stroller and baby bag, and your pretty much maxed out. I can't see you packing them up for a weekend trip for example (stroller(s), baby bags, toys, playpen, etc, etc, etc)

Hey man, I've got a 2006 MS6 I'll make you a good deal on. :D

Fits what you're looking for 100%, only it is used. VERY well taken care of, though. ;)

Don't buy something ------y like the Honda Prius or the Toyota Prius... That's just...... No... Plus they can't get out of their own way :P


I've heard the cash for clunkers required trade in of a vehicle that gets less than 19mpg but the catch as I understand it, the vehicle has to be DESTROYED for the credit to apply...

I avg 30-33 mpg on my 3 man its not that bad.
For those of you not in the know the cash for clunkers thing has a varied amount of rebate depending on the dif in Epa mpg and only applys to new vehicles wich blows. Another assholeish gem in the program is that the vehicle has ot have been licensed for a year before it is traded wich kills me. Cause to do that is atleat a 1k dollar trouble for me would be much easier if i coulda just drove one of my other cars up there and got rid of it. Seriusly this insurance shit is a major scam.
http://www.cashforclunkersfacts.com/ the site so you can educate yourselfs.