GM shutting down Saturn
 

Just heard it on the radio...

From CNN
Penske pulls out of Saturn deal - Sep. 30, 2009

They should have let the big 3 fold. If a company can't pull its weight it deserves to die. Possibly would have made room for smaller auto companies to get started and fill the void.

assuming vehicle quality is the issue and not some convoluted financial parasite:
here's an idea...make your car reliable and people will buy it. Put the same thought and process from the Vette into the entire fleet and you might sell some cars.

With the vette they can make you pay a premium for their thought processes. Otherwise it appears the interns make the cars :facepalm:

There is much truth here.

The same is true, to a degree, with Cadillac. There is not much platform-sharing there, so the chassis are rather more purpose-built than the rest of the GM line.

Still, the Corvette is a very special case within GM, given its celebrity status within the company. With a semi-dedicated assembly plant (fully-dedicated, now that the XLR is dead), there is definitely a greater sense of purpose about it. I can't see GM getting nearly as excited about any other vehicle wearing the Chevy / Buick / GMC / Opel / Vauxhall badges.

It's just as well. The Solstice & Sky both passed into history this June with the closure of the Wilmington plant. With them gone and the Firebird long a memory, there's really no reason for either Pontiac or Saturn to be alive anymore.

Crap...I don't see a recovering economy for a good long while.

Let em' die. Let GM die as a whole actually.

The new GM commercials have me laughing. I remember the ones comparing a Malibu (I think it was a Malibu) to the 3 series. I don't care if I could buy 2 Malis for the price of one 3 series, the BMW just has overall better quality, build, and "awesomeness" (like rechargeable BMW glove box flash lights). Toyota used to be exactly what I wanted from a car company. They offered a sporty front engine front wheel drive coupe, the Celica. However they also had a lightweight mid-engine, rear wheel drive convertible, the MR2. At least Nissan still has a 2 door RWD sports car, and a sports coupe and sport sedan. But Nissan used to offer 2 RWD coupes at one time, one of them twin turbocharged. And wasn't there a rumor about the new Camaro coming with a twin turbo option? Just seems like the big 3 lacks original ideas. Other than those crafty Germans, car companies are getting weak.

Its about time. I have never seen how Saturn has lasted this long. I see like 2 or 3 Saturn's a day on the road out of thousands of cars.

The problem is that Saturn started off good - solid engineering, reliability, economy, etc. Then, when they should have taken Saturn and applied the processes, ideas, etc. to the rest of GM, they instead applied GM's processes and whatnot to Saturn, and turned it into another batch of badge-engineered cars in the fleet.

Personally I don't understand the downright hatred that some people have for GM. Yeah, they made mistakes- and the biggest mistake of all was the shortsighted improvement of profits now (well, in the past) by making promises of healthcare and massive pensions to employees in the future (well, now), and the resultant cost-cutting that was necessary to maintain profitability at the expense of quality. Of course this ties into national healthcare/social security debates- GM (and other large companies) have to absorb these costs and price them into their vehicles, whereas other countries that provide them via the government pass these costs onto taxpayers and don't have to price them into their cars.

You know what, though? GM cars have come a long way in the last few years. Yeah, they still have their hits and misses, but overall, they're worlds better than they were years ago, yet people still insist on holding against them their failings from decades past. For crying out loud, if Japanese cars were held to the same standard, we'd all be swearing off the rustbucket pieces of shit- because that's what they were in decades past. Same with Korean cars. And Chinese cars are going to go through the same cycle.

I will say that there are a number of advantages to sharing lots of components- GM parts are dirt cheap. Even the dumb stuff- like relays and fuses- are all the same. If you lose a main EFI relay in a Miata, you're fucked, because it's a dealer part and nobody else has it- happened to me a hundred miles from home. If you lose a main EFI relay in a GM car, you just pull out the AC relay, or the horn relay, or the whatever other relay, swap places and be on your way- and almost every auto parts store will have replacement relays for next to nothing.

And anybody who says GM didn't hit a home run with the small block V8 is a freakin' imbecile.

good, i fucking hate saturn

I agree, to a point.

GM was the shit back in the 1940s - 1960s. They were innovative, they built good product, they helped win the war, and unfortunately, they set into motion a series of deals that would lead to their ultimate ruination, handing de-facto control of the company to the unions and creating an unsustainable pension / benefit program. Then, in the 1970s and 1980s, they started to feel the crunch, so they stopped innovating, cut costs by eliminating factory modernizations and (apparently) slashing R&D, and were ultimately surpassed by young, agile competitors.

Sounds pretty much like IBM. And RCA. And Raytheon. And Western Electric. etc etc. When was the last time that you, as an end-user, purchased a product made by any of those companies? Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, builds TV sets or washing machines or telephones or microprocessors in the USA anymore.

Is it not the natural order of things that the same become true of the auto industry?

Oh, sure, there will always be a market for niche products. Just like McIntosh still builds a select few of its products here in the US (using foreign-sourced components), I'm sure that the Corvette will continue to be produced in Bowling Green long after the entire US economy is purchased outright by 中国工商银行.


But I see no reason why the washing-machine class of vehicles (everything in the <$40k range) still need to be built here. Dissolve the company, spin off the profitable bits into independent entities managed by domestic holding corporations, and sell the badge to investors who can outsource design to Taiwan and production to Malaysia and The Philippines.

Vettes are junk. I had an '84 (yep, first year of the C4) and my mother had a '94. The '84 was a piece of shit and we spent a ton of money keeping it up. We sold it and a few years later I my mother was selling her '94. They didn't have a digital camera so I was taking a few pictures of it for the ad. After looking it over I found that she was having the same problems with her car that I did. The leather was cracking, plastic parts in the dash were cracked, windows leaking so badly that the screws in the doors were rusted making stains on the carpet, etc. TEN YEARS after the initial C4 and they still hadn't attempted to fix the glaring engineering defects that they had put in the car. I'll never buy another GM product. NEVER.

FWIW, both cars were taken care of EXTREMELY well. I think ours had about 4K miles a year on it when we sold it and my mother's probably had less than that. The cars simply fell apart. My mother bought a bad ass fire breathing '99 Vette after that but I haven't seen it enough to know if it has problems. Damn fast car though. My parents have always owned at least one Vette and I can remember riding in the cubby hole behind the seats when I was a kid. I grew up in them and have been around them all my life. They look bad as hell and a few of them are pretty powerful but they never were put together that well.

Personally, I don't think you can single out a manufacturer as having an entire fleet of shitty cars these days. They all have lemons, trust me, all of them. (Mitsubishi, might be an exception, all of their cars are shit...) I have owned a lot of cars, and every company has their issues. They simply try too hard to put out a new model every other year.

People have a short attention span and engineering and design try ot keep up...it's just not possible. Healthcare and pensions is what killed the american car (well that and the pricks at Car & Driver) The quality has come a long way in american cars, and at the same time the quality in foreign cars has gone down. I am not going to get into a big pissing match, but a lot of this quality bullshit is just pure brainwashing. Back in the 80s and 90s, yes...but it's simply not the case anymore.

But saturn makes cars people want to buy! Theyve been doing right since day 1 !?!?!

corrected

I don't understand why Saturn is getting the boot. They are one of the few domestic cars I would consider buying if I ever did. Rccote is right, they make cars you want to buy instead of some of the other GM brands just making a car to fit a category! The Corvette and Camro are about the only GM cars that make you go DAMN! Malibu, Cobolt, Aveo, .... Most of those cars just look so damn boring and then you get in and its even worse on the inside. Now the chevy trucks might be a little better, but I have to say when you get in a nice crew cab 40k+ truck I would like to see some better buttons and controls than the cheap plastic crap found in most GM's.
They just do not seem to listen to what the buyers want. I am a very picky buyer when it comes to cars though.

Believe me, I don't disagree with you. I mostly feel the need to come out in favor of GM just to balance the sheer hatred that seems to permeate every corner of the internet.

I certainly agree that GM has certainly fallen into the traditional business cycle and appears to now be in the "decline" stage of it. I also certainly agree that vehicles should be designed and built where it is most cost effective to do so- not built here (or wherever) simply because it's "tradition" or anything else. I'm a big believer in markets.

One day, maybe, I'll understand the whole "I want GM to die and burn and they're terrible and every one of their cars should be summarily crushed on sight" attitudes that I see. I guess I just can't muster that level of hatred for, well, anything. Especially not an inanimate object like a car, or a non-human entity like a corporation. I just don't see how it's productive- it's right there, on productivity levels, with the union-management-board circle jerks that went around- got nowhere fast but everybody seemed to like it when it was going on.

The Corvette is an interesting example. There are a lot of things about it that are amazingly awesome (performance per dollar) and a lot of things that people have complained about for years (although many say that the C6 was worlds better than previous models in these areas) like the seats, fit and finish, build quality, etc. There are some things on the car that I just don't get- going back decades- like why they retained drum brakes for so long, why they retained vacuum-actuated flip-up headlights for so long, and why, oh why they still retain the transverse leaf springs. I mean, I get the advantages of the transverse leaf springs- packaging, weight, the fact that they are essentially their own sway bar, etc.- but the C6Rs are running with coilovers- that should say something.

And I doubt I'll buy any truck that's not made by GM.

I don't think they have, I think an '89 240sx and '07 Z are both very well built and put together. But there are those foreign cars which were never all that high quality in the first place ;)

And the reason that everyone here hates GM is because they make shitty cars, end of discussion. It was there shitty cars that got them into this mess and it will be there shitty cars that end them.

Care to compare it to my Toyota Tacoma?

Didn't think so...

I don't know how people can say that GM is building cars no one wants. Well maybe that's true, but they are still selling them. 2008 sales still were #1 in the US. Sure they've lost market share, sure a lot of loyal Made in the USofA consumers have jumped ship. But christ around here you can't throw a stick with out hitting <insert generic GM car unit here. GM's problem is amazingly bad management over DECADES!

The best part is that GM has stepped it up a notch. Back when they were closing plants all over the US they were just killing towns. Now they are after global economies! Now that's success! The collateral damage from GM sucking is amazing. Back when they were just laying off people most who weren't supported directly by GM were put in harms way. Now that the Governments (Both US and Canada) have tried to bail them out EVERYONE is hurt. Nice.

GM and Chrysler should have been left to die. Better leaner companies would have emerged. Fuck trying to create new classes of vehicles and new markets. Build three things. Cheap ass economy car for the masses. Full size pick-up truck. And a Mini-Van. Focus everything on those three platforms and how could they not profit? This is how Honda became a power house. Back in the 80's and 90's how many cars did Honda have in it's line-up?

I have to wonder if that is, in fact, genuinely the case?

On the one hand, I guess it's not a lot different from the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar debate which has raged for decades. But truthfully, could any of those jihadists actually tell you why an orange-painted pushrod V8 is superior / inferior to a blue-painted pushrod V8?

On the other hand, I have to question whether most of the folks who espouse such anti-GM philosophies today actually believe any of it, or whether they are simply parroting slogans because it's easier than thinking.

Iono about your vette analogy RM i have tested and looked at several older vettes from the 90's and 80's and agree they are all pretty much garbage. But the newwer vettes alla 2000+ and the newest vette from the literature etc i have read are realy put together well and deliver on performance. That being said the malibu will nvr compete with the accord camry or 3 series in my book. And GM realy fucked themselves by making there shit such a pain in the ass to work on. Who else makes a 7 foot wide muscle car in the 90's that you have to pull the motor to change the spark plugs on etc. The whole control freak ecus etc are a fuckin joke as well. The japanese cars of old from what i have seen, where sure where rusty etc but they filled a niche. Ie light, fuel effecient and, cheap. We need more cars like that on the whole, i think that our cars have gotten way more expensive than they have to be. And along the same lines as the housing markets we need a correction on the retail prices downward.

I'd put my money on "both." Because, quite frankly, I don't think your two hands are in vastly different realms.


There are a thousand other debates like that everywhere in the automotive world and elsewhere. Mac vs. PC comes to mind. Either option has its respective pros and cons, and most of those who espouse their love/hatred for one or the other are doing so, most likely in large part, because they can. And if challenged, they just revert to "well you're stupid," or some variation thereof, the surefire sign of a solid, logical and well thought-out argument. Then again,

Way easier to fall back on mindless hatred than to formulate your own opinions and actually have to reach the cognitive level at which it is possible to identify and describe positive and negative traits of a subject. Honestly, sometimes I wish I could mindlessly follow what I'm told, and have the ability to see the world only in "good" and "bad," but then I realize how woefully unfulfilling it would be to have my life dictated by everyone else. Easy, but unfulfilling.

Anyway, you see this in the automotive world and elsewhere as well, where everybody wants to hop on the good old bandwagon, regardless of whether it's taking you anywhere good, or anywhere at all, for that matter.




As a disclaimer, I own multiple GM vehicles, and will most likely add more to the fleet in the relatively near future. Each has its pluses and minuses, but on the whole, each fills some need and is the right tool for the job. Kind of like the Miata. It is what it is, and fills the need/desire for a car of its type (small, two seat, lightweight, reasonably easy and cheap to work on, etc.), but it has its pitfalls (the fact that it's a convertible comes to mind, as I've mentioned before, I hate convertibles). Overall, however, it meets my needs and its shortcomings are within acceptable tolerances. I don't really have any feelings toward GM (or Mazda, or Mitsubishi, or Honda, or Toyota, or Ford or ...) one way or the other. Some time ago I learned that the only broad sweeping statement and generalization that isn't patently absurd and universally asinine is that broad, sweeping generalizations are universally asinine, and patently absurd.

May I ask why not? From what I understand, build quality of a new Malibu is on par with that of an Accord or Camry*. I won't say anything about the 3-series, as I'm not exactly sure why that comparison got brought up in the first place earlier in the thread- comparing things that are (at least are supposed to be) economy-type sedans with a more upscale sports sedan is kind of apples and oranges.

So, Malibu/Accord/Camry- build quality, options, features, whatever- all kind of on par with each other, at least in my eyes. I won't say that I've driven them, because I really have no desire to even look at these cars (I don't buy $20,000 economy cars, it defeats the whole purpose of "economy." I buy $2000 or less "economy" cars.) but comparing specs, features, etc., they look pretty equal.

So, what's your reasoning?



*Well, that's what the literature says. I take it with a healthy dose of salt, as I think Consumer Reports (known liars), JD Power, et. al. simply produce printed toilet paper and kindling, not anything worth reading. Alas, I don't really have anything else to go off of, and the rest of the world seems to blindly follow these magazines, so...

You would own more the_man? If they started making more cars that look like the malibu, camaro, and vette then they would have pretty cars, they just need to bring their craftsmanship up to par. It has taken 21 years for the dash lights to start to go out in my 240, something that took all of 3 years in a Trailblazer. Every one of the big 3 cars I have driven with automatic windows have had problems with them. None of said trailblazer's cigarette lighters/power jacks work anymore, neither do the electronics for the front passenger. The most amount of success I have had with a domestic automobile was a Jeep Patriot, its only problems being poor metal quality in some areas and faulty electric windows. I don't want to be in a rage against US based companies, but they are writing checks their butts can't cash.

the 3 series was brought up earlier in the thread because GM tried comparing the malibu against it...

Yeah, I am definitely one of the least brand loyal buyers in existence...I like each vehicle for what it has to offer, regardless of who makes it. Whether it's performance, price, reliability or whatever. I bought a VW because I thought it would be a dependable daily driver, what joke...it's been a nightmare. I am not going to now say that VW is crap, but the B5.5 passat sure as hell is and its well documented. All I know is that when you go to fix a european car it costs 2-3x as much. Luckilly, I repair it myself, otherwise I might really be pissed.

Lets see what I have owned: oldsmobile, GMC, Honda, Mazda, Ford, Subaru, VW, Saturn(outlook, barely a saturn), Dodge, Jeep, BMW...

Of all of these cars, the VW has been the biggest POS. The Ford is the second biggest, but I don't think that counts considering its been flogged mercilessly on the track for the last 5000 miles :) ...none of the others except the Mazda would do as well especially at the price point I expect.
I guess the point is, you can't judge a car company based on a single car, otherwise porsche would even be shit for making those worthless Cayennes...based on an even more worthless VW Toureg. The quality was so bad on those that VW dropped them from their reliability stats. How's that for working the numbers?

I guess my point is that it was bad business management and even more so unions that killed the american car companies....don't even get me started on unions. There was a time and a place for them and it's long since passed.

Hmm, this day in age it doesn't take long to dig up info. Every manufacturer has problems...get used to it...

tacoma problems - Google Search

You could do this same search with any car...and I do mean any.

This is one of my favorites, Toyota has massive recalls and they are "heroes"...the big 3 does and it's because they have shitty products...

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...a_recalls.html

BTW, I have nothing against toyota...I looked heavily at the Sequoia and other large SUVs in the Toyota lineup, but the price was excessive and the fuel mileage was even worse. I ended up with an Outlook, and it's been great, it even tows my race car better than I could have imagined. I even recommended a Scion Tc to a coworker that was looking for something stylish and reasonably priced...boy was that a mistake, talk about horrible service and endless issues. Once again, I don't think Toyota is crap now...I just won't ever give anyone advice on buying a car again. :)

Without hesitation. I will say, though, that of the GM cars we have around (the ones I own myself and the ones in my relatively close family), the newest is a '95 (no OBDII cars for me/us) and the oldest an '84.

I could throw out my own anecdotal evidence that "proves" that GM cars are great, it doesn't make it so. My current Miata left me stranded (aforementioned main EFI relay failure), and my previous Miata had the distinction of being the only car I've owned to suffer a manual window failure (in the halfway down position). One of the guys at work here is fighting a lemon law suit against Toyota on his POS brand-new Tundra. A bad car is a bad car, it doesn't mean that Mazda or GM or Toyota make all bad cars, it just means that every once in a while a bad car rolls off the line.

Just to put things in perspective, think about how many components there are in a modern automobile. Sensors, computers, switches, relays, fuses, wiring, pumps, injectors, all sorts of stuff. Then think about how many different countries a lot of that stuff comes from, how far it travels, how many sets of hands and/or robotic arms it passes through. Think about the fact that each component, for the most part, is made up of other components, and each component, subassembly and assembly will have some nonzero rate of being bad out of the box, improperly assembled, etc. Then think about how few problems even the worst of cars has today relative to even ten years ago. Really, it's amazing.

It's an asinine comparison. I mean, maybe not so much for the average moronic car buyer, but for anybody who is remotely an enthusiast, it's asinine. I guess since the majority of the driving public just cares about leather seats, bluetooth and navigation, it's a great comparison.

Uh, yeah...BMW? ...ask my neighbor about the $1300 steering rack he just had replaced in his 7 series.... $1300(just the part) for a steering rack, WTF? Oh, then there is the bizarre thumping sound it's had in the differential/halfshaft for the last 2 years that no one can figure out. Oh, and the window regulator/switch that only works sometimes (ironic eh) A 7 series, I would expect much better than that for that price point!

I guarantee you I can come up with a horror story for every manufacturer....cars suck, all of them. Honestly, I don't why they are my hobby! I must be a glutton for punishment and I like an empty wallet.

what happens if you own a Saturn and you need warranty covered work done? will other GM brand dealers honor it? will anybody continue making parts for them? etc....

Correct...you can take a GM product to ay GM dealer. They'll continue making parts and when they stop the aftermarket will pick up where they left off. Almost every part (aside from some exterior body parts) on the Outlook is used in the other lambda platforms (acadia, traverse, enclave) Not sure about carryover in other platforms but parts will be available for quite some time.

You can still buy parts for flathead V8s made in the 1930s. You can build, from aftermarket catalogs, several entire cars, as a matter of fact- replacement frames, body panels, interior pieces, etc. are all out there- so what makes you think you wouldn't be able to get parts for a 2009 Saturn Aura if you can get parts for a 1929 Ford or a 1969 Dodge?

GM must, I believe, keep parts available for 10 years, and then the aftermarket will take over if they stop. So long as there is a demand, the parts will exist. Even if they didn't box them as Saturn parts, they're almost certainly shared with 279 other GM products worldwide, you'd just go into an auto parts store and it'd go like this:

"I need an alternator for a 2009 Saturn Aura."
"We don't have those."
"OK, then, I need an alternator for a 2009 Chevy Malibu."
"Here you go."

you act like oldsmobile never got dissolved. fuck a saturn, good riddance.

Well, I don't think they'll make any parts quite that long...for these fine rides on the roads these days. There aren't many cars in recent history that make it past 20 years without having a run in with a crusher. Hell, they are all plastic.

And yes, Oldsmobile, talk about something that should have been dissolved in the 80s along with Pontiac. And why the hell do they still have GMC???

Besides, Obama will make sure we can't keep a car longer than 5 years anyway...it will be completely inefficient when its that old! sheesh, buy a new one!

You guys just wait and see how you feel when we're all driving chinese cars!

Tuning out until the conversation gets a bit more intelligent.

I've always judged car companies from my own perspective...which has always been that of the buyer of the best <$2K used car I can find. Trust me...a lot of companies make cars that are real shit 10yrs later...Saturn is not one of them.

Saturns have always had deplorable resale value...which made them a bargain Corolla in the used market for their dependability and good build. Had it not been for the low rent original owners of many of these vehicles, they would be a little more prevalent. But folks that buy $10-12K domestic compacts treat them as such...whereas folks that spend the $15-18K on a Honda/Toyota tend to treat them like a real investment in transportation.

Even with this I've driven quite a few 100K+ mile Saturns that weren't showing any glaring defects and would have taken me to Dallas and back without a hitch. I agree that GM should have learned a lesson from Saturn...and that it might have saved them. I also cringed over the past year every time I heard their name on the news. After all...you have to pull for the underdog domestic car company that was trying to do things right in spite of their corporate bosses.

I will miss Saturn. There is something to be said for solid transportation made by Americans...and that day is now gone -unless of course you want that solid transportation made by Americans to come with a Honda or Nissan badge on it-.

Which comes back around to why American car companies failed. The American worker didn't kill them..the American corporation did. We have a late model Tundra in the family...and man is it a well-made truck. Japanese engineering...American craftmanship.

I'm not a big Union fan...but GM killed themselves. As far as the Corvette...it is the Harley-Davidson of sports cars. Not technologically...but cachet-wise. Harley also stopped innovating years ago...and allowed the Japanese to make utility bikes. People still buy every single one of them.

Thing is...Americans think we can still compete with the rest of the world on the "washing machine" level...and we simply can't. We have to build more advanced, bigger ticket items to maintain our economy and lifestyle. Unfortunately we aren't training our kids to do this. We are doomed...and even more so if Obama keeps trying to get involved in education.

I daily drive a '96 Saturn SL2 and I'm in the "saturn followers" group I guess... member at saturnfans.com where I found helpful info to solve a few quirks the car had.

I really am pleased w/ my car. Everything still works. Cruise, A/C, sunroof, pw, pl... rolled 150k about two weeks ago. I bought it at 130k for $500 and had to put a radiator in it, tires on it, and front control arms and tie rods. Uses oil like hell but as long as I keep it full it runs fine. The oil problem was due to no relief holes in the pistons. So the rings just gum up and next thing you know you're putting in a quart every 500 miles... or in my case.... 2 quarts every 300 miles. :) (yeah I know, holy shit.)

I spent $13 constructing a "hot air intake" for the car during the gas "crisis" a while back... managed 47mpg on a trip to and from Cleveland from Cincinnati. My car is an automatic, I used A/C and never coasted w/ the engine off like some jackasses were suggesting was safe and effective. Since gas prices came down I stopped toying w/ the hypermile crap, still average 28 in the city and 35-37 on highway.

I'm looking for a 2 door Ion as my next daily driver. I'm sad to see Saturn go. :(

Wow.... I just threw this up as an FYI. I did not think it would spur this big discussion.

Mazda and Toyota rule. The Chevy LSx is a good motor. Everything else sucks *** diving for cover***

My sentiments exactly.

In 1980 Honda made 6 vehicles...3 of which were available in the US.

Civic, Accord, Prelude. I owned two of the three.

Prelude in 80?

I remember when I was in collage going into the dealership in 85 when the first CRX's came ashore. You could have whatever you wanted...in blue or white. That's it.

Dont get me wrong toyota and honda arent near as good as they used to be either. But in all of what i have seen in vehicels etc GM builds there shit to breack down and be taken back to them to be serviced or traded in on a newer vehicle every 3-4 yrs. I havent been intimate with the stuff they have come out with in this decade becouse quite frankly its to expensive and quality of the shit they put out in the 90's was horrible. Underpowered over wieght and gimicky. Hell i wouldn't even buy a camry younger than a 97, becouse they GM'ed it up and got big fat and lazy. I would be tempted to buy a 2003 or later accord if i could afford one but still the price range has exclueded me from testing them with a good conscience. I just cant in good faith buy a car from a company that made the fuckin trans am that i bought thinking i would like but has turned out to be a cluster fuck at everyturn. Any company that would build such a car deserves to eat shit and die a slow painfull death plunging the entire norther portion of america into a fiery hellstorm of nuclear winter. If they where the company that made my 67 chevy then i would understand saving them but they are not. So good bye and good ridance, after that i would put honda, mazda, and toyota on notice as well make what we want or GTFO. Fuckin SUV's and 4000 lbs cars are fucking retarded for 95% of the population to use. And big ole trucks with 10 ton capacitys that go to lowes and get a few sheets of plywood or a laove of bread from kroger are ridiculous as well. But atleast they dont go screaming down the interstate into your blindspot at 100mph while talking on a cell phone and smacking the kids in the back seat, who are adjusting the dvd players.
I geuse moslty what I hate is all the non driving motherfuckers of the world and all the shit they love. You know who i am talking about the people that stop right at the end of an on or off ramp becouse no one moved over for them to merge etc. Its called space your shit and plan leave room etc good god people. Or the people who rush in to get in front of you when a breack in trafic occurs and you are like 5 cars back from the lead. And then when you pull in behind them they proceed to camp in the fucking right lane. If your motherfuckin ass wants to pass then fuckin pass and get the fuck out of the way of the people piling up behind you god dammit. The GM of today fosters that mind set as does the for of today to a lesser extent but it is still there. I had better end this post before you get me started in health care.
Motherfuckers expect me to pay fuckin 13% for health care when i refuse to pay 3% right now fuck that shit. Just let me fuckin die if its that important for the government to care for me i geus i had better start packing and move somewhere else.

I for one happen to enjoy the LS series motors. Hope they keep on coming...

yeah sure great motors in shitty cars is a win. Everyone wants a SBC becouse it makes the hp until they have to work on some of the modern day cars with SBC's and then they discover why people commit genocide, and kill all the puppys and kittens in a tristate area. A SBC is great in something you dont have to work on at all cuase you pay others to do it, an old car, or any non GM car period.

I only read the 1st page of this thread...and I was a bit jacked. Fuck all you dickheads who say "GM shoulda went down a while ago." Listen PUNKS, before I was a Miataturbo.net member, I was a Thirdgen.org (Thirdgen Fbody "camaro and firebird" site member). I love Camaro's and actually I love the firebird more. I sold my Trans Am and my garage bay full of parts so I could buy a car that was lighter, more efficient, and also more agile. Don't you forget though...What car company has the LS series of engines that all you V-8 swappers want so badly? Oh yeah, GM. Out of the big three's latest muscle productions, what is the fastest? The Mustang? NO. The Challenger? NO. That's right, the CAMARO. I love my miata, but fuck you jerk off's who give insults towards a company who builds performance in the country YOU live in. My fiance has a Saturn SL-2 4 door. I hate that car, but it's also the first car I have ever seen with a spin on transmission filter. I actually like the Saturn SKY, and the Pontiac Solstice. I think they compare in size and performance to the NC Miata. So if the Saturn goes out, I guess pontiac is next.
The big three all make similar stuff to compete. The mustang comes in 6 cylinder or bitched out 8 cyl version. As does the Challenger, and the camaro. They all make stuff I hate, like the cobalt SS, and the SRT4 line of Caliber's (formerly Neon's), and whatever wrong wheel drive other stuff their is.
All I can say is, just cause we drive cars that might beat a 4th gen LS-1 camaro easily in the quarter mile...remember, the reason for that is cause we have little assed matchbox cars that weigh 2/3 or less of our opponents. Don't forget what it takes to get us there, cause we all know our little shit boxes can hardy touch a high 15 second quarter mile in stock form.
Good thing I'm drinking....some jerked off piece of shit stole my $3 right outta my lunch box that I was gonna use to buy an Apple Danish and a milk at my 2nd lunch break tonight at work. Then I get home to this.
At least "Rock of Love" isn't on...I had to watch the VH-1 behind the music of Bret Michael's instead.

Well lets admit it, even if I had a V8 camaro I would have to kill myself wouldn't I? Who wants to say that they own a chevy exhaust note :greddy:

Do you have a personal stake in GM? You seem genuinely hurt and insulted that someone said something bad about X car company. Who gives a shit.

I'm not saying an LSx isn't a nice engine. I'm saying that when you are driving down the road in a $35,000 370HP sports car and it starts raining you should not have to worry about water dripping on your head. Why can't GM build a Corvette that doesn't leak. Why do you have to carry a screwdriver around with you because the screws in your dash like to back out and fall on the floor. Who designed that shit?

FWIW, I'll be calling a guy today about buying Geo Metro #4 <G>...

I completely agree with you. I wish all of those people were off the road permanently. Alas, they make up the majority of the driving population, and I can't really fault GM (or any other company) for catering to them.

I personally don't think that GM fosters that mindset any more than any other manufacturer today- like you said, pretty much every carmaker's offerings are more bloated, with a driving experience ever more numb and dumb, with engineers focused on how many gadgets and how many airbags and how many climate control zones they can pack into a car rather than actually improving the driving experience. What particularly amuses me is that my old SL2 gets 40mpg- something that most cars today STILL can't do- 15 years later. Further proof that I really don't need to be buying a new car.

We own a prelude, we plan to replace it with a 2dr v6 5-sp Acorrd when the time comes. You know what we didn't consider...A Saturn (or any GM or Ford for that matter).

my previous occupation was saturn dealership technician. in my experience, their cars were generally pretty dependable and very simple to work on. while not a powerhouse by any means, the drivetrains were damn near bulletproof. UNLIKE many other GM brands, they kept the cars basic.....and it worked. so i am pro-saturn...though i have never owned one.

i feel that one of GMs biggest problems was the lack of brand identity. i mean seriously, what is the difference between a chevy and gmc pick-up? why would one buy a G5 over a Cobalt?

i think they need to separate the brands based mainly on price (like toyota/lexus). saturn should stay as an economical line, chevy as the mid-priced choice, and cadillac as the luxury brand.

Well thats is how it should work, but each of GM's companies cuts into the others' sales area.

There is one common theme among everyone praising saturn. It's the first and second generation cars being praised. The cars made when Saturn was being Saturn. You don't find that dedication and adoration from the owners of the post 2000 cars. The Vue, L series, Ion and Outlook were miserable failures. The only good car they've had recently was the Astra which was a rebadged Opel built in Belgium.

As was stated early in this thread, if saturn had stayed true to the original concept they'd still be thriving. Unfotunately the brand became just another GM subsidiary and was different in name only.

Hopefully someone will come out of the woodwork and revive the early concept and philosophy of Saturn. Affordable, reliable, durable and economical US made cars.

When we bought our Tacoma pickup we didn't pick it over a GM because all the GMs looked the same. We picked it because consumer reports said the Toyota was great and the GM trucks were shit (based on customer polling). I wanted a truck that didn't break down the first month I had it. When looking at trucks there were only two that really stood out in the ratings and both were Japanese. All the American trucks had crappy ratings.

Sadly Saturn died when the decided to stop using plastic and swapped away from there own motor/drivetrain.

I <3 my dent resistant panels and lack of rust.

I wasn't commenting on truck quality. frankly, i don't care at all about trucks...don't plan on ever buying one in my lifetime. i was just making a point that all of their brands (except for maybe cadillac and hummer) have completely lost their identity due to the excessive cross-platforming.