|
I bought a welder and a flannel shirt... 220v vs. 240v question.
Pics to follow after I drop my first stack of dimes... but before I can do that...
When my 1962 house received a second story and big sunroom in 1992, they upgraded the 100amp panel to a 200amp panel. The job is garbage... outlets on opposite sides of the house on the same circuit, a random outlet in a hallway on the gfci, the entire garage on a single 15amp, one single solitary outside light on it's own dedicated 20amp... I've spent 2yrs tracing things down and it would make Jesus weep the job they did. Anyways... the old 220v? outlet in the garage that was for the dryer before the remodel is still there. The breaker has been open just waiting for me to find something for it. Behold the Harbor Freight Titanium 200 ($350 cash to a bro who bought a storage unit and had 5 of them, normally $850). Big score for me, but the 220v? dryer outlet is not the same as the 240v? plug on the welder. I know there's a Europe vs. America 220v/240v and that we used to use the "older style outlets" is that what is going on here or am I all wrong? Can I just run to Taylors and swap out to a newer plug? Help. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...174e47514d.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b48c74b293.jpg |
|
redacted -- I shouldn't be telling people how to do things with electricities that can kill them
|
That looks like an Australian 240v 10a outlet. Our 15a outlets have a wider earth prong, the 10a prongs are all the same size.
|
Originally Posted by samnavy
(Post 1642107)
Big score for me, but the 220v? dryer outlet is not the same as the 240v? plug on the welder. I know there's a Europe vs. America 220v/240v and that we used to use the "older style outlets" is that what is going on here or am I all wrong? Can I just run to Taylors and swap out to a newer plug?
208 is a whole different animal (that's the RMS voltage you get between two legs of a 3 phase Wye supply, with a 120° phase offset), but that's not important here. In residential applications, there have been several different standards over the years for electric ovens and electric dryers. Originally, they were all three-wire (no ground), and maybe the appliance chassis was externally bonded to ground, or maybe it was internally bonded to neutral (which... was sort of safe, except for if the neutral wire broke in which case it was lethal), and maybe it wasn't connected to anything. Newer homes use four-wire receptacles, which are pretty much interchangeable, other than that they now have a dedicated ground wire, separate from the neutral. Under normal circumstances, neutral and ground should be at the same potential, and are in fact tied together inside the primary distribution panel. But they're supposed to always be separate after that. Also, as a broad generalization, electric dryer outlets tend to be 30A, while electric range outlets tend to be 50A. But builders have interchanged them over the years... Ok, enough residential history. That plug on your welder is a NEMA 6-50. Somewhat common in industrial settings, not typically found in the home. Rated 240 (or 220 or 230 or 208) at 50A. Two hot wires and a ground, no neutral. The socket on your wall, rather interestingly, is a 50A range outlet, not a 30A dryer outlet. I mean, they both work exactly the same (two hot wires and a neutral, no ground), it's just uncommon to see a 10-50 in a garage, as that specific receptacle is normally found in the kitchen. The difference is the shape of the neutral pin. In a 30A socket, it's L-shaped. In a 50A socket, it's straight. The only reason for this is to prevent you from plugging a device which draws 50A into a circuit only rated for 30A. Which... is literally the exact thing you're trying to do here. This is a 10-30 outlet, normally used for clothes dryers: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1af4ec4af2.png This is a 10-50, normally used for electric ranges: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7d05287de8.png So, in theory, you are good to go with either an adapter or cutting off the plug from your welder and replacing it with an electric range plug. Technically, that socket you have is ungrounded, but neutral is the same as ground, except for when it isn't. (This is usually when you're being electrocuted.) I would, however, want to verify the gauge of the wire feeding that receptacle first. You can get away with 10awg for a 30A circuit, but for a 50A circuit, the code specifies 6awg. It'd be... slightly unusual if the electrician pulled 6awg to a garage for a dryer. What size fuses are installed in the panel for that branch? Worst-case, replace the 50A fuses / breaker with 30A (if the branch is wired with 8 or 10awg), and don't max out the welding current. |
Joe, I followed 90% of that... the parts about electrocution I glossed over. Tomorrow I will check the breaker panel and pull the cover off the outlet and check the wiring and report back with pics.
|
You can find those 220-240 pin plugs in all mcdonalds kitchens in Australia.
Pretty sure its just to stop 11 Yr old slave-staff from plugging dumb shit in. Considering there's like 4 daisy chained normally, and all the important stuff is on other dedicated plugs... Just as different plug top. |
What Joe said is, you have the voltage but not the amperage.
You can upgrade plugs to fit the welder standard. Just make sure the wiring is big enough. Judging by your picture, it's not likely. I just did a welding job in an early 1900s house on knob and tube. That was interesting. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c460d5df77.jpg |
Breakers are 30amp x2. Ill Crack the outlet open this afternoon and check the wiring.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...52f996260b.jpg |
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1642114)
That plug on your welder is a NEMA 6-50. Somewhat common in industrial settings, not typically found in the home. Rated 240 (or 220 or 230) at 50A. I would, however, want to verify the gauge of the wire feeding that receptacle first. You can get away with 10awg for a 30A circuit, but for a 50A circuit, the code specifies 6awg. It'd be... slightly unusual if the electrician pulled 6awg to a garage for a dryer. I also have a 30amp 220v in the garage for the air compressor and have used that outlet for the TIG, and it never threw the breaker. But then again I'm not sure if I ever used the whole 200amps welding anything ever at home. Your air cooled torch and therefore your man hands won't like that. |
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8ef712d400.jpg
I'm running this 50amp receptacle with 10/3 wiring on a 30a double pole breaker. Just like others have stated, dont run full power on the welder and the breakers wont trip. So far, I havent welded anything thick enough to require a wire and breaker upgrade |
Originally Posted by samnavy
(Post 1642140)
Breakers are 30amp x2. Ill Crack the outlet open this afternoon and check the wiring.
Actually, check it anyway. Wouldn't it be hilarious if it turned out to be aluminum wiring rather than copper? I looked up the manual on your welder. According to the specs, it maxes out (on the 240v side) at 28.7A for TIG, 33.6A for stick, and 36A for MIG. Those numbers are low enough that you're probably* fine just running as-is. Your range outlet there in the garage is a code violation (it should technically be replaced with a 30A outlet), but if that doesn't bother you, you could just build a 6-50R to 10-50P adaptor (or chop off the plug from the welder and install a 10-50P plug onto it) and run it, secure in the knowledge that there is only a small** risk that this will cause your house to burn down, killing your family in a pretty gruesome way. * = you might burn the house down ** = not as small as the risk of being shot by a dog carrying a gun in its mouth at the beach |
Oh, come on. He might just get some cool pictures of the wiring glowing red hot like Erat posts.
|
I don't know much about melting things with electricity, but like state farm, i have seen a thing or two.
I do now know the current carrying capacity of a 6" C-clamp is about 2000 amps. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8b47ab43a1.jpg You're likely never going to hit that max current at whatever duty cycle that machine is rated at anyway. Keep the breaker, put the new plug in. Should be good. |
Originally Posted by rleete
(Post 1642158)
Oh, come on. He might just get some cool pictures of the wiring glowing red hot like Erat posts.
I think the long and short of it is this: If it were our house and our welder, we'd run it. But none of us is actually going to say "Yeah, you're totally solid, go ahead and run it" because that would mean that we're recommending that you plug one code violation into another (existing) code violation, and we'd probably feel slightly bad for a few minutes if you did this and it did in fact wind up killing your whole family. |
Isn't this fun!
Pics... went by Taylors on the way home and picked up the receptacle that matches the plug on my welder just in case. Then came home and put the tester on the outlet to make sure it was cold... check. Popped the cover off and discovered what I think is 10ga solid wire. There is no way the new receptacle will accept the solid 10ga wire. SO, lets say I swap out the plug on my welder and/or find an adapter... the real danger here is overheating the wire, yes? I can keep a margin of safety by never running the welder wide-open while MIG'ing? I also read that 10ga wire is good for 35amps... and the max MIG is 36amps... so... like what Joe/Erat/Tim said above. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...67abf33d1b.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9a67f9f1b1.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...da2b36e19c.jpg |
|
|
This discussion makes me smile - the things we do, that send our children bananas ... I bought a new oven. Instructions say must be installed by licenced electrician, so I opened it up anyway - hmmm, has a three pin plug on the end of the lead!? You need an electrician to plug it into the socket? Turns out when I pulled the old one out it had been hard-wired, but that was easily fixed after a visit to Bunnings, purveyors of Fine Electrical Fittings for Fools Who Want To Play at being Electricians and Dice With Death. I smile when I see all the warnings on their shelves that this stuff can only be installed by licenced electricians, yeah right!
Joe is right, this is not without risk: know the risk, know your limitations and when to stop and get an expert in. My hoist wouldn't work, so after testing various wires with the multimeter didn't show the problem, I pulled the cover off the control box - took one look at the spaghetti in there and called in a bloke who installs these things for a living, who took 30 seconds to get it working. |
Years ago, my dad needed a new furnace. As they were prepping for the install, the tech told my dad there was a very small gas leak at the adjacent water heater. They then left, the scheduled install date being the next day.
While they were gone, dad and I disassembled the offending gas lines, cleaned the threads, reapplied the proper sealing tape and reassembled the whole thing. We checked the joints for leaks using the standard soapy water method. Now, per local regulations, this is not legal, requiring licensed professionals to deal with natural gas lines, because we've all seen the dodgy crap that most DIY people do. When the tech finished installing the new furnace, he told my dad "You do good work." My dad looked him in the eye and proclaimed he had someone else do the work, and the tech winked and said, "Yeah, right." |
I'm confused, why won't the receptacle accept 10s? The wiring is labeled it should say exactly what it is. 10s should absolutely fit in a 50a plug. Unless you mean they're too small. At 50a you should be using 6s. But yeah. That adapter is acceptable. That old receptacle looks like it's had some loaded breaks in its lifetime.
Edit* yeah I just looked 50a plugs can take 10-4g wire... But at 50a I recommend 6s. 10s should be okay at 30a. |
Amusingly, this popped up on a facebook group I'm a member of today.
Customer states that forklift charger isn't charging: https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6544093065.png |
Originally Posted by Erat
(Post 1642176)
I'm confused, why won't the receptacle accept 10s? The wiring is labeled it should say exactly what it is. 10s should absolutely fit in a 50a plug. Unless you mean they're too small. At 50a you should be using 6s. But yeah. That adapter is acceptable. That old receptacle looks like it's had some loaded breaks in its lifetime.
|
Originally Posted by samnavy
(Post 1642178)
In the pics above with my giant thumbnail, the silver set screw is down as far as it will go... a 10ga wire would be the proverbial "hotdog down a hallway". The extension cord claims 6ga pure copper (for $100, it better be) and now I can move the welder all over the garage and driveway instead of next to the plug with the 4ft cord it ships with.
I am honestly a little bit surprised that such a cable is sold commercially, but hey! You should be good to go. About four years ago, I accompanied the family (from FL) on a two week RV trip. This was their first long-distance trip in a then-new 32' Jayco Redhawk, and as I'm the mechanic / electrician in the family, they asked me to take a couple of weeks off so I could fly down and accompany them. The itinerary had us staying for a few days in Houston, at my cousin's house, as my godson was graduating from high school and we wanted to be there. They got clearance to park the rig in their driveway, and petitioned me to come up with a way to plug it in while there, so that they could have air conditioning and such. They know the basic "Rules of using electricity in an RV," but don't fully comprehend the intricacies. So I called ahead, and had Ana send me a photo of the dryer socket in her laundry room (my sister had already negotiated its use with her), and... it's a fucking 10-30. (Her house is apparently older than I'd thought.) Thus, I built this abomination: https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...896d95f5ad.png And it worked. Lots of happy, non-electrocuted Cubans, and a few gringos: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...34b4defd5b.png |
Originally Posted by Erat
(Post 1642131)
I just did a welding job in an early 1900s house on knob and tube. That was interesting.
My own house (built in 1908) was originally strung with K&T. There are still some porcelain insulators in various locations, though to the best of my ability to detect, all of the original wiring appears to have been torn-out during a remodel in the 1950s. So I have quite a lot of cloth-insulated wire in place, but it's all of the BX variety so far as I can tell. I hate working with that shit. I mean, it was fine when it was new, but after 70 years, the rubber has gotten pretty damn brittle. I'm not sure what's more annoying; that, or the fact that all of the 2x4s in this place are actually 2 inches by 4 inches, meaning that modern lumber doesn't line up with it. EDIT: I should mention that there is actually one sawmill just outside of Chicago which specializes in making vintage lumber. They produce wood which is dimensionally-compatible with the tens of thousands of old houses in the area. That's such an amazingly cool specialty which I would never have thought of. |
It sure is / was. Equipped with screw in fuses and all!
My grandpa bought the house in the early 40s. It has a nice view of the Detroit river and Canada across it. My grandma very recently passed away, at the age of 92. And my grandpa who is still alive long since moved out. With her passing myself, the uncles and cousins have been renovating it. We're all tradesmen and are doing the majority of the work ourselves. My uncle Jim a retired electrician has been slowly replacing it all the wiring. Because the home is on the historical registry we have to keep it period correct. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c28c3dc6f2.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1259ab19ed.jpg Starting heavy reno in the "attic" / maids quarters. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...432405d5c7.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e6d64390cb.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0645733eda.jpg I have a ton of pictures but don't want to clog up the thread. The Amish will sell you rough cut dimensional boards too, usually pretty cheap. |
Originally Posted by Erat
(Post 1642191)
It sure is / was. Equipped with screw in fuses and all!
(...) Starting heavy reno in the "attic" / maids quarters. (....) I have a ton of pictures but don't want to clog up the thread. (Chicago lots are... narrow. Our houses reflect this.) My absolute favorite feature about the house I live in now is encapsulated in this photo: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...562c743321.png That's on the port side, just fore of center. Basically just outside the interior wall of the master bedroom, but you have to really be determined to get to that spot. Yes, it is what it looks like. I can't reach it. There's some structure in the way. I'm sure that if I said "Fuck these two spinal hernias" that I could probably contort my body enough to get to it, but... I kind of feel like it's a part of the legend of the house at this point. I like to think that some electrician dropped it there in 1989, and got his ass chewed by his wife afterwards when he couldn't remember where he last saw it. |
Car club trip to Tasmania ~20 years ago, we stayed in this big OLD house, drew straws for who got which room. GF and I drew the maid's (or was it maids'?) quarters, against sloping ceiling, entry through door maybe 1.5m high and sloped on one side against ceiling ... otherwise room quite adequate, at least the resident ghost left us alone!
Very envious Erat, lovely old house but should have been negcat as envy negative emotion ... |
Sweet attempt to derail this thread... back to welding! FEAST YOUR EYES!!!
First stick weld on left... first flux-mig on right. Why in the hell would anybody ever stick? That shit was way harder! But not bad for my first beads ever. Lessons learned: 1: It's tough to tell whats going on. My eyes have zero training to actually see whats going on. You can see that the flux bead isn't anywhere near straight... but I had no idea it wasn't straight until after. 2: Getting the proper settings is an artform. I couldn't tell bead-to-bead whether I should turn the power up or down based on results. 3: Keeping the stick properly aligned in 4 dimensions was tough... towards the end of my session I finally ran a single 3" bead the length of my coupon without lifting, but it looks like garbage. 4: Protective gear is no joke. I suppose TIG is a lot cleaner, but I did this all in short sleeves and never again. Also... that shit stays hot a lot longer than you think. I didn't actually burn myself, but it was stupid luck that I didn't. 5: I need at least three angle grinders ($15 Harbor Freight specials coming right up!)... cutoff/ grinder / flap / twisted wire... maybe four grinders. I probably did 20 disc swaps today on my single Dewalt cordless... went through two 5ah batteries. 6: I need an actual table... gonna make do with with the piece of c-channel I'm using as a base, but looking at cheap tables on Amazon to accelerate the learning curve to the point where I'll be able to make my own table/cart combo as a first project. 7: The extension cord I bought is no joke... thick as hell compared to the one on the welder. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...710740ddd1.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...767fb65e7b.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cc1756ba8c.jpg |
|
Wait til you go from flux to gas. I could never get my flux welds right. Went to gas and what a difference. Stick has its place if the pieces are rusty.
|
Originally Posted by samnavy
(Post 1642278)
6: I need an actual table... gonna make do with with the piece of c-channel I'm using as a base, but looking at cheap tables on Amazon to accelerate the learning curve to the point where I'll be able to make my own table/cart combo as a first project.
|
Flux core is trash. Also don't buy HF wire, good name brand wire even flux core will be better. Solid core with gas is best.
Stick welding is fantastic, I almost always prefer it when doing down and dirty welding, especially in the field. But, I am sorta a welder. Settings should be written inside the machine on the door. At least, on all the machines I've ever used, maybe in the manual. You can always look up a chart online to get a rough idea. I always recommend a table with some mass, but a plate of steel is pricey these days. Otherwise, just practice, find actual stuff to weld instead of blanks. Fix stuff around the house or yard, that will speed up the learning curve. |
Originally Posted by samnavy
(Post 1642278)
6: I need an actual table... gonna make do with with the piece of c-channel I'm using as a base, but looking at cheap tables on Amazon to accelerate the learning curve to the point where I'll be able to make my own table/cart combo as a first project.
MIG for tacking, TIG for everything else. Don't waste your time on the stick stuff. |
Originally Posted by TurboTim
(Post 1642339)
I weld on top of a thin aluminum sheet laid onto my workbench. The welder ground clamp doubles as a clamp to hold the sheet onto the workbench. No need for a dedicated welding table. That and a similar looking vice to the one you already have, is all I've used to make all those manifolds and exhausts. Actually 95% of the time whatever I'm welding is clamped in the vice but you get my point.
MIG for tacking, TIG for everything else. Don't waste your time on the stick stuff. I second the MIG for tacking, TIG for everything else. Always wear a welding jacket and gloves and 100% your mask. Welding sunburns suck. Being hot and sweaty sucks while welding. But it sucks the rest of the time when you aren't welding if you get sunburned. Go find a local welding store and get some small bottles of gas. HF welding carts work great. I have been using them for 10+ years now. |
Hopefully I'm hogging all the electrical fires to myself.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...dd0955b850.jpg |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:45 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands
