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I want to punch a Ford engineer in the face

Triton V8 in my Ford F250; seven out of eight spark plugs broke in the cylinder heads as I was replacing the plugs.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1362525960

The tool is an extractor used to pull the broken piece out of the head. It is pretty much an all day job. WTF!

I'm a mechanic in Detroit.

I can't even remember how many of those I've had to do?! :vash: I think that engine almost ruined Ford. Supposedly, they had to design that style plug do to the way the head was built? At least they were nice and gave it a different sized socket head so the average diy'er has to think twice about removing them. That extractor kit isn't cheap either.

The only ones that are really shitty to do, are the two closest to the firewall. Anytime a 3 valve ford comes in for a tune up I tell the customer upfront that if any break, it's $150 a piece for me to extract them, plus the cost of the tune up.

That usually scares away most of them, and I don't care one bit...Let Ford deal with it. :giggle:

The very last one I pulled was near the firewall. It did not break cleanly, and I thought I was fucked. I ended up screwing the plug back into the head, and then quickly backed it out again. It broke cleanly, and I was able to pull the top out and then use the extractor.

I have heard of nightmares where the extractor does not work, and you end up pulling the cylinder head. My blood pressure went through the roof.

make sure you anti-sieze the new ones! lol that sucks glad you got them out though!

Well, I anti-siezed most of them. I had installed a few before I realized that they should be anti-siezed.

I also learned after I bought the plugs and had most of them in, that there is a new one piece plug that will not break when you pull them. :facepalm:

Anyone know if this is true?

Quote:

Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 986145)

Well, I anti-siezed most of them. I had installed a few before I realized that they should be anti-siezed.

Isnt it standard to anti-seize all plugs all the time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by icantthink4155 (Post 986179)

Isnt it standard to anti-seize all plugs all the time?

I always do but some people give me the stink eye for doing so... I guess it's because I used to be a Ford tech so it was pretty standard procedure there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 986112)

Triton V8

Problem identified.

It is rare that I am literally rendered speechless by idiocy of design.

The fact that a dedicated tool exists whose sole purpose is to remove broken spark plugs from the head of a Triton V8 engine...

Yes, but on the threads. These little bastards like to break off below the actual threaded section on the extended part that contains the electrode/ground strap. Over thousands of miles of heat cycling, that part pretty much becomes fused to the cylinder head and due to its cheap, thin walled design, snaps off when you try to remove the plug.

Just be thankful you own a pickup truck and not an econoline van with the 3v head.

Have an 06 rustang gt in need of a tune up, hated life when I first read that problem about a year ago. Might just bite the bullet and take it to ford to deal with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 986145)

Pro-tip: Just never change the plugs. :brain:

The estimate I give for the job is between $500 and $5000. One, I had to buy the tool, so that's a charge. Two, it's a pain in the ass, and then some, so that's a charge. Worst case (I've seen it) the car needs head removal and a trip to the machine shop. If it were my car, I'd buy some junkyard heads, do the new plugs on the used heads, and then just swap the heads. It's easier on the back. ;)

If you change them, anti-seize is obvious, as much as you can get on the threads, without getting too much into the combustion chamber or on the electrode. There is a 1 piece repair plug that can be used. It plugs onto the broken plug, and makes the car drive-able. It doesn't fix your issue (needing spark plugs), but the car is okay. Generally, you just suck it up, and get the fuckers out.

FUCK THE FORD 3 VALVE. :vash:

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2ndGearRubber (Post 986193)

Pro-tip: FUCK FORD

FTFY.

Hey Troy, tell them about your Dodge truck with the broken seatback tilt mechanism that requires you to jam something between the seatback and back of the cab to keep the seat from flopping backwards.

Detroit is the toilet and the domestic auto industry is still circling the drain.

It's reassuring to see that little has changed since the glory days when I pwned a '93 Grand Am with the infamous LD2 "Quad 4" engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 986219)

It's reassuring to see that little has changed since the glory days when I pwned a '93 Grand Am with the infamous LD2 "Quad 4" engine.

Oh the quad 4. The beast

The longer I go without a tow vehicle, the more I realize I want a Toyota or Cummins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 986221)

Oh the quad 4. The beast

I got really good at removing and replacing the cylinder head on that engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 986237)

I got really good at removing and replacing the cylinder head on that engine.

I remember it was one of the hotter 4 cylinders back in the day. I vaguely remember its reliability issues. I never had one, but drove one once and was pretty impressed for a young lad.

Problem with the ford is two fold, the long threads stick into the cyc and develop carbon buildup that locks them in the cyc head. The other issue is the stock plugs are not all metal as you have found out and break in very very easily.

Problem one solution, believe it or not I have a friend that is a master Ford tech and has used this for years with great results. Use a 1/2 impact on the plugs. It shocks off the carbon and they come right out. Dont it myself and it worked great.

Problem two is that you replace the plugs with all metal ones, as much as i hate to say this Champion makes an all metal plug that will take some torque and come right out in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IcantDo55 (Post 986459)

Thanks for the great tip. I heard about the all metal ones, but Advanced Auto does not yet carry them. They failed to mention they exist when I purchased the plugs. :vash:

Don't kick yourself. People have issues with the one-piece plugs (may not be correct heat range). The newer Motorcrafts are redesigned and should come out OK, especially if anti-seize is used. Got my new Motorcrafts and the extraction tool on Amazon. I'm about to do the wife's '07 Expedition. Planning on using a 3/8" drive impact. Wish me luck!

Im glad the new DOHC engines aren't like this.

I know Ive heard there is so trick to getting them out that works most of the time, but Im not sure exactly what it is. Ive heard the guys with the older S197s talking about it, but I dont really pay attention to the 4.6L tech. All I know is that I see more people talking about how relieved they are that all the plugs came out fine than I see people complaining about having one or more break off.

EDIT:
Apparently this doesnt happen if you replace the plugs every 50k miles, even though the service manaual says every 100k miles.
Also, they fixed this issue in 2007:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1362641997

EDIT again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ixtlan (Post 97940)

Well very interesting experience. Got some things to pass on about our plugs.
After reading all the broken plug and removal issues as well as the TSB's from hell about it I decided to do a little Preventative Maintenance.
First of all it is a bitch to say the least.
Not difficult but one wrong move and you could be screwed.
First off the issue:
The plug has an extension the extends past the base of the plug into the cylinder chamber. The plug is also a multi piece design. The extension is one part, the actual plug base the the second part, and the remainder is the core and ceramic.
Carbon builds up between the plug extension and the hole it fits thru.
It is like a pencil in a straw.
This carbon freezes the extension to the head and makes it very difficult to unscrew the plug from the head.
If the carbon is bad it can break the extension off and leave it in the head.
Not Good.
Now the fix:
First you must remove the plug. This is where you can go wrong in a hurry.
They are tight and want to Squeal when removing (meaning they are seizing).
What you need to do is loosen that carbon gripping the plug.
Here is how.
1. Remove the coil.
2. Loosen the plug 1/4 to 1/2 turn only. It squeals like hell too.
3. Get yourself some Stoddard Solvent (P-D-680 to you Military types). It dissolves carbon like crazy. And it is cheap. I paid 7.50 a gallon from the local Oil Distributor (Kellerstraus for you locals); just bring something to take it in like a gas can.
4. Pour a little into the plug hole (about 3 Tablespoons), just enough to let it weep around the plug you loosened and down to the carbon.
5. Let it sit about 15 to 30 minutes.
6. Remove your plug. Comes out mucho easier.
7. Use a scotch bright pad to remove any carbon still on the plug.
8. Inspect your plugs for damage and looseness. Grab the ceramic and the extension and twist it slightly. If it is loose at all replace it. It be broken.
9. DO NOT Put anti-seize on the extension as Ford recommends. It only melts and runs down the electrode and causes missing. Clean the plug in your solvent.
10. Clean the plug wells of the solvent left over (Stick a rag in it and soak it up).
11. Install your plugs and torque to 25 ft/lbs.
12. Reinstall you coils and fire it up. You will get a bit of white smoke for a little as the solvent burns out of the cylinder.
13. Drive around the block.
If you feel a miss and throw a code then recheck the plug ya got the code for.

You be done.
BTW I broke one plug (Ceramic was loose in the plug). Didn't even know it was broke till I started up again. Threw code P0308 #8 Misfire.
They are $12 Bucks each at the local Checker if they have them.
HT-1 Autolights FYI.
Not Cheap!!

Oh and Champion has done a redesign to a one piece base and extension.
$20.00 ea. Ouch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ixtlan (Post 98147)

Word of warning all.
Dont use the damn anti-seize.
It melts and runs down the plug to the electrode.
Then the damn car starts missing here and there.
What a pain this is gonna be till it all clears out.
And I used a real thin layer on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie (Post 986737)

I know Ive heard there is so trick to getting them out that works most of the time, but Im not sure exactly what it is.

Speaking from absolutely zero first-hand experience:

This thread got me to do some searching. Apparently the Ford forums agree that, after soaking them in penetrating oil for a month, hitting the plugs with an impact gun tends to have the effect that the carbon bond between the head and the plug nose be cleft in twain, that the plug be removed in one piece.

Ford: Quality is job one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Perez (Post 986739)

Are they suggesting squirting the spark plug holes and then driving around for a month, or letting it sit without driving it for a month?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie (Post 986737)

Apparently this doesnt happen if you replace the plugs every 50k miles, even though the service manaual says every 100k miles.
Also, they fixed this issue in 2007:

Funny you should say that. A year and a half ago I replaced a coil and replaced one plug because I broke the plug pulling it out. When I replaced the plugs this week, the only one that did not break was the one I had replaced during that episode a year and a half ago.

My truck is an 08. Did you mean 09, or do you think they did not make the change on all models?

Quote:

Originally Posted by miata2fast (Post 986998)

Are they suggesting squirting the spark plug holes and then driving around for a month, or letting it sit without driving it for a month?

I believe that some embellishment was involved. An overnight soak is probably more in line with reality, though I question the effectiveness of this. (If penetrating oil is capable of working its way past the gasket and threads and contacting the carbon-fouled nose, then something is wrong.

I get it.

I did try penetrating oil on a few holes, but I loosened the plug just a tad and let sit overnight thinking that maybe, just maybe the oil would get past the threads and magically lube it up enough for it to work. Nope.

Now if these plugs were the only problem on the 5.4's...

As much as I hate Ford, I had little problem with these and used to do them all the time

I run a cleaner through like seafoam, then soak them in pb blaster for a few hours or overnight, then take a breaker bar and hit it until they just start to break loose. then soak them again and let them sit for a while and they normally come out pretty easy.

I see why the impact works essentially Im trying to do the same thing with hand tools.

The ford house I use to work next to extracted them for free unless it was on the firewall then it was 50, so we had to get real good at them.

I think the cobras and older 5.4s shooting plugs out of the head is a much bigger problem.