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I hope yall brought some tissue paper with you when you came to this page!
You should try cleaning your self up a bit ;) |
Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 480058)
I hope yall brought some tissue paper with you when you came to this page!
You should try cleaning your self up a bit ;) |
i'm assuming that you could theoretically build one of these "backwards" for us fwd/awd 1.8 guys?
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~kevmo.../GTRengine.jpg |
Not quite catching what you mean by building one backwards.
I will say let me finish off all of the ones I am working on before I get started on new stuff already My current in order work load for intake manifold developing: Honda B Series Miata 1.8L Honda F20/F22 (s2k) Honda K Series Evo VIII Miata 1.6L Honda H Series Toyota/Scion As you can see we are still on the honda b series so it will be quite some time before I will be ready to take on any more as our list is already long and full of thankfully vary patient customers. When I am further along on these I would love to develop for many more motor types. We are just in a long process of re-gearing up our shop for high end intake manifold production rather than our already well known turbo manifold production. The reason we are pressing hard for this is because the turbo manifold market is so played out it is very hard to make any money in much less sustain a business off of. So instead of going the way of the dinosaur we are evolving and taking it to the next level where there is much less competition that has the same capabilities that we do. -James |
what i mean is, mazda/ford used the same 1.8 that is in the 94-97 miata in several fwd and awd cars. the block and head are the same, but the inlet on the intake manifold is on the opposite end of the plenum. if everything is symmetrical i'm thinking you could just put the plenum on "backwards".
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Well so far with what I have been working on for the Miata motors, the runners will have to be a curved runner because the market for the manifold will demand a similar to stock sized motor and rpm band tuned manifold so it will not be a modular design. It will be a solid welded manifold. However I can easily flip the plenum over and weld it on backwards if that is all that it would take to get it to work in your situation :)
-James |
that would do it :)
time to start saving up i suppose!! the plenum on the stock awd turbo manifold is TINY, which i can't imagine is helping me any when my torque curve plummets at high rpm. |
Lmao at the concrete comment, cant wait for new pics
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Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 480084)
Well so far with what I have been working on for the Miata motors, the runners will have to be a curved runner because the market for the manifold will demand a similar to stock sized motor and rpm band tuned manifold so it will not be a modular design.
Of course, folks like me want to spin 9,001 rpm just to stick it to the S2000's but... the point is a manifold with a power peak at 6800-7500 is not at all unreasonable, I spin my stock motor to 7500 without issue, the built one goes higher. |
Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 480080)
Honda B Series Miata 1.8L Honda F20/F22 (s2k) Honda K Series Evo VIII Miata 1.6L Honda H Series Toyota/Scion |
Originally Posted by Cspence
(Post 480103)
The 1.6 is pretty far down on the list
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But the thing that keeps the runners much longer is that you are talking about at max a 1.8L and very small cam grinds. Even a huge 380 duration cam grind would only be about a 1" difference over a 280 duration cam grind.
There are so many variables that determine the "calculated tuned rpm" of an intake manifold. The thing is not that I couldn't build one with a straight runner that you could use in a Miata, it is that if I did one with a straight runner for a 7500rpm max powerband we will be having to use the 5th or 6th wave to tune the runners to and by that time the harmonics have died down so much you will get very little if any harmonic charge to the air. I try to not go anything more than the 4th charge which is what the longer curved runner manifold would be, at this point it will still be a good kick in power, 3rd charge is better but we are talking a calculated runner length of a 1.8L reving to 7500 @ around 20" then which is obviously a ridiculous length... The theory is simple and sound and proven over 30 years to work by almost all automotive manufactures having having been put into effect by Chrysler ages ago. You want to use the least amount of wave bounces possible as you get a stronger harmonic supercharging effect, while still being able to package it in both economically and physically in your application. Pretty much my limiting factor in the instance of the Miata is the Shock tower. If I can't get my runner length by going straight out, I will have to either, use a different wave which will have a degraded harmonic, or use a curved runner to maintain a stronger harmonic, but it will have to be welded and thus no longer being modular. Now if someone decides they are willing to build a 10k revving 2L motor hear, it should be much easier to tune it to this, keep a straight runner, keep it modular, and package it all in the tight constraints of your engine bay. Also note that just because a motor spins to 9k rpm does not mean the manifold is tuned to hit peak trq at 9k rpm as this would destroy lower rpm power, especially when you shift it would have a major drop in power. What I like to do is find the total powerband of the motor, then depending on how the car will be driven (drag cars need high rpm power, road course need more mid range, street cars need lower rpm power) I will tune the runners to that application. If you rev to 7500 rpm redline, but you are on the road course and constantly shifting gears and only over 6500 rpm in the long straights it would be a waste of yours and I's time to tune the manifold to your peak 7500rpm power (unless that is your driving style, baby it in the turns, nail it in the straights...) so I might end up tuning the manifold to a peak trq at 6000rpm or even a hair less. See how all this can easily become a major cluster fck of stuff lol. Basically my intentions for the Miata motor will be to hit peak trq @ 6000 rpm as I am sure that is what the majority of you will be using this for. At the same time the manifold must flow enough cfm and have a plenum large enough to sustain your power after peak trq so that you do not get hp drop off (this is what happens when your either you do not have enough cfm flow into the motor, OR, when your plenum volume is to little for the power requirements) -James |
wow, I think ive been in this thread for an hour now, some cool ideas, I want to see some numbers and is there any chance of actual hp gain data with the b series? Not just what it makes on a fully decked out setup. Any chance of making a d-series design as well?
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If you thought the 1.6 miata was low on the list the d series is last place lol.
Eventually I will be doing 1 for just about everything. Yes we will have alot of dyno charts to post eventually, just takes time though. We have signed on a new distributor for us www.illgarage.com and he is more than willing to help us in our development of all products. I am headed home now so I will talk more tomorrow l8rs guys |
There's only one thing that confuses me (well, ok, one relevant thing) - doesn't a higher RPM peak mean shorter runners? Honestly, 6,000 RPM is probably close to right for a very serious street car. Maybe 6,500. I'm already upset at the idea of losing the variable reluctance manifold that's stock, but the large plenum is too good to pass up.
Out of curiosity, does more boost effect this? I guess the change in speed of sound with pressure isn't that high, but... at 1.5 bar positive pressure, wouldn't that shift your tq peak significantly? |
Yes the higher the rpm the shorter the runner. (remember we are only tuning the trq peak by changing the runner lengths)
As to the sound traveling at different speeds well see the theory was based on atmospheric pressures (14.7psi) so now when we turbo it, it becomes a controversial talk on how the air works. Some people say it scales proportionately, others say it just gets all out of wack so why even bother, and then yet others say the sound wouldn't travel any differently at all. I personally believe that it scales proportionality so what is good at atmospheric pressure will be good at 20, 30, 40psi pressure as well. If not anything else it is alot better than just rolling the dice to get your magic number to tune the runners to. This above^^ is the exact reason for the tune-able runners. You should be able to hop on the dyno with several different runner combination and really see what does best. |
Good at 20, 30, 40, meaning every ten, or you just mean under boost?
Adjustable runners would be awesome to do once - I guess with your non-welded manifolds, it wouldn't be that bad to make a series of runners and swap them out. If it DOES turn out to shorter with increased air pressure, you'd have a really awesome trick going on: TQ in the low end, out of boost, and tq at the top end, in boost. If it was linear with pressure, you're talking about 3,000 rpm (little to no boost) tq peak, and another at 6,000 rpm and 15 psi, etc. Self tuning manifold. |
http://bmcrace.com/vise/DSC02313.JPG
http://bmcrace.com/vise/DSC02314.JPG http://bmcrace.com/vise/DSC02315.JPG http://bmcrace.com/vise/DSC02316.JPG Here is another vise we did for the same company. Will be posting more intake manifold pictures soon as well as pictures of something for a Miata 1.8L ;) -James |
Hopefully something we can buy :) If you can get together a 1.8 manifold in the next few weeks I'd give a deposit to be first on the list..
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he needs to shill 1600 more images of various other projects first.
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It will be something we have already fixtured up and to buy, however it is possible it will be a proprietary item for some other company to sell (it will still have my name on it though).
I can't lie, actual intake manifolds are still many moons away however ITB setups are much closer to reality at the moment ;) -James |
What slows us down the most is, depart from how much we would like to be, we are not a automotive ONLY shop. Right now nearly 75% of our income is coming from the oil industry due to sales being so low on our own product line (automotive parts). This ends up eating up obviously 75% of our time leaving us with very little time to actually develop new parts, instead what time we have left over is primarily spent on producing our already existing product line.
So short summary: We are to busy working on other things that aren't even car related to get to anything soon at all at the moment. |
This^^^^ This right here^^^^ Its gay.
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Originally Posted by leatherface24
(Post 486263)
this^^^^ this right here^^^^ its gay.
__________________ Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote |
Search your feelings luke...you know it be true.
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Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 486198)
What slows us down the most is, depart from how much we would like to be, we are not a automotive ONLY shop. Right now nearly 75% of our income is coming from the oil industry due to sales being so low on our own product line (automotive parts). This ends up eating up obviously 75% of our time leaving us with very little time to actually develop new parts, instead what time we have left over is primarily spent on producing our already existing product line.
So short summary: We are to busy working on other things that aren't even car related to get to anything soon at all at the moment. |
This includes even the Honda Intake manifolds.
The intake manifolds are a very new endeavor for us and thats why it is taking so much time to work out good designs, while being cost effective to reproduce. This is not just limited to our work on the Miata's, we have been working at this B Series Intake for close to 6 months now and it is just finally nearing its completion. |
Ya.... just because its affecting honda intake manifolds too doesn't make us any less restless... No chance in hell I'm waiting another 6 months for you to "just now" finish a miata manifold.
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There's other options out there.
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That's my point exactly Jay.
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Originally Posted by JayL
(Post 486331)
There's other options out there.
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/att...6-intake-1.jpg http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l2...r/DSCF4477.jpg |
Originally Posted by Cspence
(Post 486334)
Flipside...no reason to wait around guys....
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This is an endurance race for us, not a sprint. We have to take everything in time. I wish that I was the owner of BMCRace and could make the things that I want to happen as fast as I wanted however I can't and all I can do is make suggestions to those who can.
BMC is owned by my father, whom is 50years old now. I just work here and help with design and do all the fabrication, however he is the machinist and without him to produce the parts I need it would take much longer. If yall want a quick fix, I can order spun velocity stacks from velocity-of-sound, I can chop your head flanges off, sand blast them and regrind them. I can use my plasma cutter and cut out the plenum pieces and patch everything together, it will be no different than the manifold yall posted above. However if you want something more it will take time for Sam to produce the necessary parts for me to fabricate it. For reference time, if I was to chop the head flange, and hand build everything it would take about 3 days per manifold. There would be zero waiting on the machinist.... If it would be better for me to provide this as a service rather than develop a new part for your community let me know, as obviously it would be a quicker route for yall... -James |
What would be the price of above manifold?
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Originally Posted by Cspence
(Post 486334)
Flipside FTW...no reason to wait around guys....
That's not to say Flipside's pieces are bad - they are well-made and I've never heard of anyone having a problem with one. My point is that if you haven't done the modeling and analysis, you have no idea what you're bolting to your motor. There was a thread about this a while ago, and it was clear that it's really, really easy to fuck this up. |
standing by for pictures of what was supposed to be my intake/itb setup :p
one lucky local son of a bitch will get it for free. who will that be..? |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 486434)
Can Flipside show me a CAD drawing with CFD data that guarantees I'm not melting another $2500 shortblock due to starving number 1 or number 4? Nobody with an IM on the market today seems to be able to give me this guarantee. There is a whole lot more to making these things than sticking a set of stacks inside a plenum, slapping a throttle body on it, and calling it a day. You can very, very easily design a manifold that will create scrap metal of every motor you attach it to.
That's not to say Flipside's pieces are bad - they are well-made and I've never heard of anyone having a problem with one. My point is that if you haven't done the modeling and analysis, you have no idea what you're bolting to your motor. There was a thread about this a while ago, and it was clear that it's really, really easy to fuck this up. Thats why you just take an aftermarket Edelbrock or Skunk2 Honda B-series manifold (which has very similar port spacing to the BP), and put a BP flange on it. http://www.boombopracing.com/ebay/pi.../s2-im-b-3.jpg http://www.tunersports.com/images/pr...rx-natural.jpg |
Originally Posted by ARTech
(Post 486419)
What would be the price of above manifold?
All the things I would do would be: Cut off your factory head flange from the manifold, plane flat on our belt sander the weld surface, then sandblast to clean up and prep for weld. 150mmx45mm spun velocity stack Velocity Stacks Had fabricated sheet plenum constructed from 1/8" wall 6061 New CNC Machined throttlebody flange (to recycle the original off the factory manifold would take as long as to machine a new one) All items TIG welded, then flange surfaces planed flat a final time to insure proper sealing Final Debur and Port Matching the velocity stacks to the head flange to massage out any minor imperfections To keep the longest straight runner possible while not taking up to much room in the engine bay I will utilize a raised runner design (where the velocity stack is higher than the floor/base of the plenum) All work should net 3-7 days eta from when I receive your manifold to when it ships back to you. I would construct stencils and templates on my end to keep these easily repeatable... As you may notice this is $150 less than my projected price for the manifolds we are already intending on bringing to the Miata scene, however this option is available as an immediate remedy for whomever might not want to wait for our developed product. I could even offer polishing services for both the intake manifold and your fuel rails. |
And here is the FINALLY FINISHED! B Series Sheet Metal Intake Manifold.
I will finally be getting onto the Miata Manifolds now! http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...l/DSC02611.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...l/DSC02607.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...l/DSC02606.JPG Ohh yeah if you want to know what the inside looks like look below :) http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...al/final/1.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...al/final/2.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...al/final/3.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...al/final/4.JPG |
Nice looking!
Why angle the TB mount of did I not read this thread? |
you forgot to read the "b series" part
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Originally Posted by Spookyfish
(Post 486715)
Nice looking!
Why angle the TB mount of did I not read this thread? :giggle: |
lol yeah that is for the Honda
I will not be angling yalls throttle body any so no worries there |
Miata 1.8L Budget ITB Manifold now available!
I have talked Sam into machining a 1.6L head flange out this week for me (finally!) Will try and have some finished 1.6L manifold stuff pretty soon. http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02778.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02779.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02780.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02781.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02782.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02783.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02784.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02785.JPG http://bmcrace.com/Manifolds/Intake-...a/DSC02786.JPG |
Wow, I must have missed where we talked about the demand for an ITB miata manifold on a turbo forum.
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Originally Posted by wayne_curr
(Post 488720)
Wow, I must have missed where we talked about the demand for an ITB miata manifold on a turbo forum.
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Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 488723)
I want to try ITB's on my turbo, just need to build an enclosure around the ITB intakes.
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Good effort, wrong forum :(
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Originally Posted by wayne_curr
(Post 488725)
I'd really be interested to see if that added complexity made any worthwhile difference with a turbo vs a well designed traditional manifold.
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im sure you could reduce cost by not not having that aluminum slab welded onto the runners.
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Originally Posted by leatherface24
(Post 488732)
im sure you could reduce cost by not not having that aluminum slab welded onto the runners.
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The name tag badge is so large because that is the only one I had laying around. We didn't have the time to machine out a different one either. As to the pricing that name tag badge and nothing to do with anything, it wasn't even factored in so it just became a perk of being the prototype.
I still haven't heard back from the person who is wanting these so I am not sure if they will be proprietary items yet or not, if they turn out not to be I will put them on my site. -James |
I would think me working on anything Miata related would be relevant to this forum....
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Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 488754)
I would think me working on anything Miata related would be relevant to this forum....
miata.net = Most all around miata friendly though the majority of the members would rather garage their stock miata and drive it once a year than modify it. clubroadster.net = ITB and drifting fanboys (this is where the nice effort, wrong forum comment came from). They would love to see this over there. miataturbo.net = more concerned with high power potential than "throttle response" |
Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 488709)
Miata 1.8L Budget ITB Manifold now available!
I have talked Sam into machining a 1.6L head flange out this week for me (finally!) Will try and have some finished 1.6L manifold stuff pretty soon. I'm going to to the dyno on Jan 16th, any chance of having one by then? __________________ Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote |
Originally Posted by BMCRace
(Post 488752)
The name tag badge is so large because that is the only one I had laying around. We didn't have the time to machine out a different one either. As to the pricing that name tag badge and nothing to do with anything, it wasn't even factored in so it just became a perk of being the prototype.
I still haven't heard back from the person who is wanting these so I am not sure if they will be proprietary items yet or not, if they turn out not to be I will put them on my site. -James WE WANT AN INTAKE MANIFOLD FOR TURBO MIATAS. WE WILL BUY THEM. WE DO NOT WANT THE WORLD'S MOST AWESOME VICES, HONDA MANIFOLDS, AND ESPECIALLY NOT IRTB MANIFOLDS. IRTBS SUCK DICKS. MY CAR WILL MAKE ALMOST MORE POWER WITH ONE CYLINDER THAN THEIR ENTIRE ENGINE. HELP US BE AWESOME, DON'T HELP US SUCK DICKS. |
Originally Posted by faeflora
(Post 488830)
Dude, your fabrication skills look fantastic but you are cockteasing us relentlessly and that sucks.
WE WANT AN INTAKE MANIFOLD FOR TURBO MIATAS. WE WILL BUY THEM. WE DO NOT WANT THE WORLD'S MOST AWESOME VICES, HONDA MANIFOLDS, AND ESPECIALLY NOT IRTB MANIFOLDS. IRTBS SUCK DICKS. MY CAR WILL MAKE ALMOST MORE POWER WITH ONE CYLINDER THAN THEIR ENTIRE ENGINE. HELP US BE AWESOME, DON'T HELP US SUCK DICKS. |
I really want to see BMC come through on a nice affordable turbo IM. I'm hesitant to bash them because of this. I'm not sure how well he takes the jibes and ribbing he gets here. That said...
Mod that Civic one to fit ours already! It took 6 months to get the honda one finalized. We're five months on this thread now. How far behind are we? |
Originally Posted by thymer
(Post 488723)
I want to try ITB's on my turbo, just need to build an enclosure around the ITB intakes.
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