Manufacture Debate. Is American built junk?
 

SPIN OFF FROM THE PARKING LIKE AN A**HOLE THREAD

$88k for an friggin Avalanche?? WTF?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...5&d=1322671873

this was the exact one i looked at, photo was sent to the wife. Chrome gayness over the wheel wells could be removed they said. It had around 4k on it.

I believe total cost on that one specifically was north of 50k with taxes, as it sits without any other options. New they said around 88k out the door.

A new escalade was around 110 i think they said but at that point i was lolling. Wife wanted the EXT Esc as did i, I thought they were nice (though since I test drove a used one and they seem like junk). And after test driving a used one i realized the EXT was kind of stupid.

Not in my realm will I be flossing an Escalade with twenty foes.

Rick, you have a problem. This problem is that you seem to have considered buying a GM product. I feel sorry for you.


I don't get why people think that a truck with a few leather and chrome bits is something to feel "baller" about. Hell, a true baller would buy a Peterbuilt or Freightliner..

Rick, you need this, without the big wheels:

http://i41.tinypic.com/24fbdqu.jpg

Think about it, you could go around blasting the Team America soundtrack and everyone would love you so much for it.

Yea, diesel cummins is mint, same with the 7.3 Ford..think thats it.
Every diesel person I spoke to said go that way if I must, not 6.0

I would totally rock that truck above, but it needs a cap.

I was wondering what thread I put that post in, I went into the "Ricks toy truck is a chop shop special" thread and it wasn't there...

Rick buy a GM, after you put a fuel pump, and a WP on it, you will have no out of the ordinary problems maybe a hub assembley after 120K. Plus working on an LS is easy as shit.

If its a 2WD the front end parts are very durable.

If its a 4WD you will eventually need pretty much a whole front end, same goes for the dodges, and Ford are way out in front as clearly the worst front suspension ever.

Im a service writer/mechanic in Texas, Id say 80% of my work is trucks. I would buy a Dodge or Chevy any day, you couldnt give me a Ford unless it was a 7.3.

And Tundras are complete shit.

Also doppleganger I dont think anyone who drives a miata should talk about what is and isnt a manly vehicle.

If you're considering anything American you're a little light in the head department if you ask me. Nearly all junk.

If you don't like the Tuntra get something else Japanese or better yet, British. Just please, nothing American.

Sorry this isn't the right thread, but whatevs.

Oh the paradox...I can't say what is "manly" because I drive a Miata...yet I can say what is manily because I do drive a Miata.

I'm not knocking on the mechanicals of some American trucks and whatnot, there are a lot of them that run forever. However, it's the overall design and all the shitty interior materials are complete garbage. Nothing like being reminded of shitty plastics everytime you get into your GM made vehicle.


I'm really surprised that the Japanese mfgs. have not tried to get in on the diesel market.

The only experience I have is the bushings in my '97 (2nd gen) Dakota Sport 4x2 being completely shot after 11xk miles. Everything else was fine, but in heavy vehicles the suspension parts put up with a lot of abuse. My moms 2005ish caravan has 60k-70k miles and the front suspension is starting to squeak. That shit isn't cheap to fix either.

I towed my miata plus 1500 pounds from New York to TX with a Chevy 1500. It had horrible rod knock before I even began the journey. Not only did it complete it, but I drove it as a daily for a while and eventually sold it for good money.

Although that was an older Chevy.

Seriously how hard is it to build a quality vehicle. I keep wondering, there must be a guy that just keeps fucking shit up. To get hired by ford/chevy/dodge, you would think that you would need to be very fucking smart. So why do they keep fucking up?

"tradition", seriously. They refuse to change their ideals. It's why Toyota and Honda have grown so much, they constantly improving. Trying to implement change in an American manufacturing company is like pulling teeth. "we're different", "we used to make more product faster than we do with this new system". Bull shit.

Shareholders want a specific return on their investment. Say, 40% profit as an arbitrary mark.

They hire some guys who claim Six Sigma experience for streamlining and QC. the guy comes in and tells the engineers you gotta make this car 30% cheaper, so we can sell it at the same price in a slightly larger quantity because EVERYONE loved the one from last year.

engineers cut cost, sacrifice quality, reliability, performance, or usability. You think GM made an awesome car before!!! let me buy this one, and it sucks. Some people think its a fluke and buy another, so it further reinforces this type of behavior. Some don't and move on to a jap/euro manufacturer.

Eventually it gets bad enough like in 06-08/09 where GM/Chrysler/Ford cars were so fucking shitty that no one bought them.

I really don't think you guys could be any more wrong. GM has increased their quality level by light years. Every bread and butter GM vehicle made between 1970 and ~2008 was a universally bad vehicle, but a new Cruze/ Malibu is actually REALLY nice. The interior quality has come up 200%, and the drivetrains have been COMPLETELY redesigned. Where GM Powertrain rocked face with the 3rd/ 4th Gen small blocks, and left an effectively unchanged 1980s 3800 boat anchor in the more pedestrian cars, the new 6-cylinders are every bit as good as Nissan's or Honda's best products. The same can be said of the newest Ecotecs, and the trucks have seen significant improvement, too.






You still couldn't give me an Avalanche. Those damn things are hideous.

My wife has a Murano, its a chick truck... errr wait, wrong forum for that.

:fawk:

I like the domestic stuff. I did have a thing for the Honda Ridgeline but it looks more awkward than the Avalanche or EXT Escalade.

I also had an older Mazda MPV for a moment in time... engine failed, sold it. It was a great truck otherwise but engine wise it started to fall apart with a limited amount of mileage on it.... but I liked it.

I liked the Toyota FJ Cruiser. In fact we looked at that before her Murano. I thought it had such a unique look. First thing I did getting in was slam my knee on the dash so bad that I limped out.... i was pissed and declared it too small. Murano is surprisingly big for how it looks from the exterior and we bought it 1 hour later.

Rick, I want you to listen to me...05-07 Toyota Sequoia 4x4 Limited
2UZ motor
3 rows
Tuff as shit, if you could see what I did to mine you would be impressed, towing, mudding, baja, sleeping, ramping, racing, 3' water crossings, etc. I put a 3" lift on it and 33" tires and called it a day.

I believe several members here have those, SamNavy comes to mind.

I was just about to suggest the FJ Cruiser.

I'm pretty sure truck buyers could give two shits about "soft-touch" plastics and "nickel-finish" trim on the dash. They want shit to work and not fall apart.

Nothing like being reminded of dead-nuts reliability, cheap parts, and ease of repair every time a Chevy cranks up and does its fucking job every time you ask it. Same thing with my beat-to-shit $2300 F150. Sorry, but if you want an affordable, reliable, full-size, modern truck that can tow some shit, then you probably want to buy American (and don't throw Toyota back at me - they may be built in San Antone, but they're hideously overpriced and not worth the money).

Besides that, have you been inside a new Ford or Chevy lately? They're every bit as nice (or nicer) than a full-size Far East truck. Dodge is still working on their act, but they're catching up.

There's no way they could go head-to-head with the Big Three. They don't even want to touch the heavy duty market because we've got it covered. ;)

Its comforting knowing I don't have to replace the timing belt every 60K miles which can be a major ordeal. The newer 5.3/6.0/4.6/5.4's are also very reliable. Hell, the junk 5.3 in the Miata had 120k miles on it when I put it in it hits 6800rpm on a daily basis while making a conservative 320rwhp or so. The 180k mile I6 in the Jeep has sat at the far side of its tach for minutes in mud holes because it'd keep inching forward while buried up to the headlights in soup.

If I wanted comfort, I'd get into a car. Trucks should be harder, rougher, and more intolerable then the sissies they've become. In the 50's-70's, you had a truck for WORK and a car to be seen in. You didn't go to church in your truck. I laugh every time I see a truck without any "work marks" in the bed, especially the diesels. If you don't work a diesel, you kill a diesel.

As far as the diesels- US emissions have choked out any good left in new diesels. When I have to run the equivalent of hog piss in a separate tank and the mileage is about the same as a gasser, its just not worth it. Now add in the added expense of owning a diesel over a gasser in maintenance and extra money up front and it makes it a waste now unless you actually use the truck (like pulling 15k or more which would rip the guts out of most any gasser when our old coal burner takes it and runs better from it).

Cliff notes-
Simplicity rocks in trucks.
Buy a truck to use it. If you don't intend to use it, don't waste it...Buy a car.
Make trucks more like a truck was intended to be.
Emissions choke the life out of everything fun.

*edit*- in most of you cats defense, I come from a far more "backwoods" background and use/depend on trucks for their original purpose.

If Pusha hadn't been assassinated by Columbian drug lords, he would be bragging about his old 300K+ mile Ford F250 or F350 and how repayable and baus it is. And he'd be correct.

There are two sides to it for me (and this also includes "Made in Canada"). I find if it's a small manufacturer or small business that puts a lot of pride into their work the "Made in USA/Canada" usually means it's a good product. For the large companies who just put that phrase on their item to appeal to the patriotic side in you, a lot of the times the product is shit. This is a complete generalization, but it's the easiest way to explain my thinking. There are obviously going to be exceptions to both sides.

That being said, the only US car manufacturer I would consider at this moment in time is Ford. But not trucks... only their cars. I drove a new Focus for work and it was really really good.

I'd have to agree, Ford is light years ahead of GM. I had an open mind while going car shopping for my GF's car, to make sure I didn't push her into something she didn't want. She ended up with a Mazda 3, saying it was both cheap for what you got, looked good, and drove great, she loves it. All the other cars she liked, but found one or two things she didn't like. Price was cheap, but you could kind of tell, no sunroof, no room for our dog, that sort of thing.

The second we stepped into anything American, she immedietely said no. Random features that made no sense. Giant abysses of plastic that were quoted as "laptop holders". That can fit my entire arm?!? Drove like shit, turned like shit, breaked like shit, she did NOT like them. We looked at cars for a month, after two weeks we stopped looking at anything American.

I'd like to avoid "you shouldn't outsource to Japan" arguments, as most Japanese cars have some basis in America, and vise versa.

I wholly agree with you on the point of owning a truck. A truck is a truck is a truck..it's supposed to be used hard, tow shit, have a beat up bed and an uncomfortable ride.

While I agree that U.S. mfgs. have diesel nailed down, it makes sense that they would at least try. Think about all the diesel products the Japanese make that are more commercial/industrial in other countries. You don't think they could apply that to their automotive branches? I am kinda stumped as to you the diesel guys are getting royally fucked on all these new emissions regulations, diesel blends and much higher fuel costs....it's a complete 180* compared to 10 years ago...and it's not like they are a large percentage of vehicles on the road.


But on the subject of interiors-
I can't say that I've been in any new(er) trucks in the past few years. I base it off what I drove/rode in years ago (mostly GM products) and it's left a bad impression on me. Maybe GM needs to target people who are like this. Since some of you guys own/use these products every day, you know them better and have your preferences, I don't and go off what little experience I have. I know I am not the only one like this either and if I were in the market for a truck I sure would be hesitant about looking at 'Merican stuff. The most I've been around a truck was using my dad's 98' F150. it was pretty basic and had the Triton 4.6...but with a 5 spd. That thing got used...a LOT. Towing horse trailers, bed loads of dirt and tons of other stuff. That thing never skipped a beat....ever.
I will say, I had to have a rental car a few months ago and they stuck me with a 2011 Camry. What a fucking SHIT box. I couldn't believe it. Sure it was base, but still...I had to get the hell out of it. I ended up getting a 2011 Malibu instead and I can say I was surprised....compared to the Camry. They were both very unimpressive in the end though.




Avalanche still screams "plastic POS" though. It's definitely the Scion tC of the truck market.

I read the first few posts then skipped down here. Im just going to comment on the thread title.

Yes. Mostly. In my experience just about everything '95 or newer is indeed junk.

Had an 03 Cavalier a few years back. Had around 40K miles while I had it. Randomly had stuff falling off it, the chip in the key went back and would randomly shut down the fuel sender when trying to start the car. Everything in it was made of the cheapest materials they would possibly find. The speaker were just short of tracing paper.

Brother had a 04 Grand Prix, that developed a crack in the block and leaked oil into the coolant. Dont know the milage on that one though, but it was < 100K.

GF had a 2000 Impala. Biggest POS Ive ever ridden in. Always had stupid annoying crap go bad. Driving just after she bought it and all the interior lights died. Always had stuff falling off. Couldnt even replace a tire because the jack would sink right into the rust.

Mom had a few Ford Windstars ('96-98) that all developed transmission issues. As well as the Chevy equivilent van, dont remember what its called, that did the same thing.

95 Olds Cutlass Ciera. Driving home one night and I press the horn. Shorts out just about everything. Interior lights, power seats, radio, horn, power mirrors,

I have limited experience with stuff pre-95, but I had a 93 Mercury Topaz(Ford Tempo) that I beat the piss out of. Roll back burnouts, Parking brake burnouts, parking brake J turns, reverse 180s, driving like a dumbass in the snow, racing friends on the highway. Took 3 years of that beating before it needed any actual repairs. Dont get me wrong though, it was still a terrible car. None of the other cars in this list were driven any where near as hard.

Im so tired, of hearing this "Shitty interior materials." Is that all import drivers can come up with anymore. Ive heard it for every domestic car.

Have you been in a Brand new Ram? Its nice. The Tundras are the ones that are all plastic. Next time you get in a Tundra gave the shifter and shakes it and watch the whole plastic center console shift and squeek.

I do believe edmunds said the new Ram leads the full size segment in interior design and MATERIAL QUALITY.

Next time we bash a bunch of domestics lets do it for something besides horrible interior, reminds me of ricers saying "id beat it in the twisties," No longer applies.
I am not domestic biased either I have plenty of hate for domestics to.

Im assuming the Grand Prix was a 3.8, in which Im very surprised to hear this as the blocks are damn near bulletproof. Some shop is making like 800whp on the stock bottom ends.

the 3.8s do commonly loose intake manifold gaskets in which a shitty mechanic could misdiagnos that as a cracked block.

To whoever mentioned not shopping american for small cars:
I do really like the mazda 3 for a small car, but I reccomend when you get a chance you go drive some of the newer american offerings, I drove the cruze and really liked it, turbo and its an ecotec, whose larger brothers (2.0,2.2,2.4) have shown to be very reliable. Now Chevy has some new aveo replacement, Sonic or something like that, havent driven it but from looking at it and sitting in it you can already tell its a HUGE improvement over the Aveo.

I think all the big three have come along way since 06, compare the new malibu to the old malibu, dodge trucks, chevy stickin vvt in LS motors, Ford finally getting rid of the shitty 4.6 and 5.4, chevy volt, chrylser 300.

Speaking of small American cars, the Focus sold well and enjoyed praise in Europe as well as the states, the new Fiesta is supposed to be pretty good too. Not the mention the SRT-4, and Cobalt SS as performance contenders, they'd both beat the piss out of a Civic Si.
But, stuff like the interior being virtually the same on my dads 2002 Mustang GT as it was in a 1995 Mustang GT is unacceptable, and that only stopped in 2005 when ford started building the S197. The interior on my moms Caravan is suck, the rear cup holders don't work as cup holders, and one of them broke not too long after we bought it. The spark plugs on the 3.6 (I think) V6 are freaking impossible to get to, I genuinely think replacing them requires moving the engine in some way. The interior on my 97' Dakota wasn't great, but with the exception of the ashtray, everything held together as it should. The bushings where shit, but they all are on pickups, It had plenty of power (which I had to pay for @ 13-15mpg) and didn't handle terribly, it could be downright fun to drive, despite shitty breaks.

See post #23.
I know every mfg. has their times with products. Hell, I still wonder what Mazda was thinking with the FD RX-7...talk about an interior that falls apart if you look at it the wrong way.
Also, I don't feel I am speaking for ALL domestic vehicles, mostly trucks SUVs...which I feel are made with little regard because they know people will buy the shit out of them. I'm afriad to go test drive a new 5.0....because I fear if I do, I'd start parting my car out the next day.

I think every manufacturer has the potential to make crap. I used to have a 2006 honda ridgeline. The rear main seal started leaking at 62k miles. The warrenty expired at 60k. Honda helped cover about half of the cost but I still thought it was rediculous that it leaked in the first place. Most of the interior lights on the inside didn't work either and it wasn't blow bulbs or fuses. I took apart the map light assembly and the little buses that connected all of the terminals were worn out. Just cheap, cheap, cheap materials used. Also, the drivers side seat was worn out after about 40k miles. I finally ended up selling it to carmax because I was tired of it. I ended up swaping my newer truck for an older truck and my older miata for a newer one. I now have a 2007 miata with 17k on it and a 99 chevy truck with 205k on it. The truck runs great and you'd think it had half of the miles. My buddy also just bought a 97 chevy with over 300k on it and it runs great. I think it's a crap shoot.

The Escalade is just a Chevy in drag.
I can't believe they get that much for either one of them. My '01 Tundra is well built and reliable. I can't speak for the newest revision. My father owns a '10 Ridgeline and it is very nice inside and rides wonderfully. It is different looking but has many practical advantages.

Noted for truth. The look like a Tupperware container..... and that's NOT a compliment. They were the laughing stock of the industry when they came out and why people buy them is beyond me.

As far as the minivans transmission going out- That is what happens when you put tons of available room on top of a car chassis. The Odyssey's were also transmission eaters because every soccer mom thought it was cool to put 1000 pounds behind the back seat and all 5 kids plus her and her hubbies obese asses into them on a constant basis.

^And caravans, and IIRC the Stratus/300M went through a lot of trannies too.

Dont kill me if this is a rediculous statement, but I want to say it was smaller then that. Maybe 3.6 or 3.2?

In 04 you could only get the 3.8, maybe the 5.3 but I think that came out a few years later.

The 3.1 was last used in the grand prix in 03.

Something good to do when thinking about interiors on older cars is to go and google a competitors car of the same vintage.

Sure people think a 2000 impala had a shitty interior,, cause its a domestic and it impossible for them to have a nice interior, but go google it and look at it then google 2000 camry interior. It makes you realize they were all shit.

Example 2000 Porsche 911 vs. 2000 Chevrolet Corvette (King of Shitty Interior Hype)
Porsche
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1250549615.jpg
Vette (shift knob, gauge and light are not OEM everything else is)
http://image.vetteweb.com/f/8955562+...e+interior.jpg

Both look bad (not horrible) to me, and trust me I have worked and driven the same cars of similar vintage and the porsche interior isn't miles ahead in terms of quality either, like everyone thinks. Thats just the shit they put in cars back then.

Notice the different shades of grey the porsche interior parts are.

Editors Note: both steering wheels are the ugliest thing Ive ever seen

The interior in the Porsche reminds me of the interior of my Dakota.

I get to look at this every day:
http://www.carnimal.com/wp-content/g...2-interior.jpg

Its not anything special, but I wouldnt complain about it.
I didnt buy the car for the way the interior looked.

Where'd al the domestic hate go?

Don't poke the bear...

Hopefully, my soon to be new interior :)

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqVHJCc...z62,3g~~_4.JPG

Subiewooobiewoo

My Dodge Dakota was reliable as hell. 12 years, and just over 140k before I got rid of it. Traded it in because the rust was starting to become a pain in the ass. It needed brake and gas lines, and the door buzzers had long since stopped working. Frame was still solid though. I wish I'd put money into it and kept it. The replacement Jeep is a piece of crap.

The one I test drove had an all black interior. Then the guy emailed me last night and said it was sold. Now I found this one with the black/beige interior and I think I like it better. Normally I'm not a fan of the wood look, but it looks more business like and this is supposed to be my new work vehicle.....so I guess its ok. lol

I had this exact interior (minus the Nav) in my '06LGT. Fit and finish is excellent. Nice, soft, durable materials. Beware....limited front leg room for those over 6ft.

Funny story - cruise control stalk is almost identical to those found in the Dodge Caravan. For some reason, in the Dodge the stalk felt fragile and did eventually break (co work van). This is the kind of skimping on quality materials that give american cars a bad taste.

hit 111,111 miles today.

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2...2/DSC_0005.JPG

I have no opinion about the build quality of American cars. I'll just leave this here:

Attachment 240232

(I didn't plan for the tripmeter and odometer to both line up on interesting numbers like that, it just happened that way.)

5th generation Accord?

Prelude IIRC. Looks new.

honda civic?

Prelude. My gf had a '01 before she got her Mazda 6. She crashed it and I sold the remains on eBay for like $3500.

barf

my subit fxt is at 143k miles with dead turbo now fresh turbo on yay

Cars me and family members have owned and stuff replaced that isnt considered normal maintenance

2003 Dodge Ram 1500 4.7. currently has 238K miles. Replaced W/P, Radiator and Battery (Original Lasted 7 years) Check Front end last week, tight as the day it rolled off the assembly line.

2005 Dodge Ram 1500 5.7 4x4 currently has 232K miles. Replaced WP, Fuel pump (last week), lower ball joints (developed slack Last month), Upper Ball Joints (Tight but replaced when doing lowers, Both Hub Bearings (one developed slack last year, other was done as a while your in there when doing front end.

1996 Chevy 1500 Z71 5.0 Sold at 222K. replaced Alternator (charged but chirped), Trans (Broke it mudding) Lower Ball joints, Compressor (leaked at front seal like all chevys)

1995 Dodge Ram 1500 5.2 4x2. Sold at ~330K. Lifters (around 200k), WP, muffler.

1993 Chevy Suburban 5.7 4x4 Wrecked at 360K. Replaced Trans, WP, Lower Ball Joints.

1997 Chevy Camaro Z28 5.7 (151K). Rebuilt Trans (killed old one at strip) Opti (when doing cam) WP (just failed) Alternator (148K) Tie Rods (One developed slack last year), Rear end (put traction to it in first during a dig race had 3.73s installed which actually weaken the ring gear). Car has been spun to 7K regularly since ~81K.

2001 Dodge Dakota 3.9 Manual. 180K. Stock Clutch, only part to have failed is the WP.

1969 Firebird Convertible 350HO Auto. My first car, had 48K original miles. Sat in a garage and was never started for 18 years prior to purchase. Put plugs wires and points in it, cleaned the gas tank, put new trans fluid in it and put new tires on it and it fired right up and drove fine until I flipped it for twice the purchase price.

I have been very happy with domestics reliability and price to fix (CHEAP).

I bought a 91 Accord as a beater when doing the cam swap on my camaro had 118K on it. Replaced CV axles, clutch, alternator, fan assemblys, IAC, exhaust studs, muffler, distributor, ps pump, outter tie rods, lower ball joints, both front calipers, and my Honda Tbelt installed by the dealer popped 22K after being installed. Said screw it and kicked the shit out of the quarter panel, and told my brother if he wanted it come and get it.

Not all Imports are that bad, but given my track record Ive decided to mostly stick with domestics, although I really want a miata.

I am very surprised you haven't had to do more ball joint stuff or break jobs.

I consider pads and rotors normal maintenance, calipers not so much which is why I mentioned them on the honda.

I consider maintenace, wear items like pads, rotors, plugs, wires (I always replace with plugs), and belts.

Ive only ever had to replace ball joints on the 4x4s but we are pretty hard on those and Ive never had to do a set before 200K so Im not dissapointed, outside of the Honda which was a nightmare. I only drove it for a year and every week it was something else.

My crappy 2000 S10 from the days when supposedly all GM was junk is now at 143K miles. I bought it at 90K for 3 grand. I have put tires, a new set of front brake pads, and oil in it. I think its the original clutch. I have not changed the gear oil. Or the air filter. Or the water pump, timing gear, fuel filter, rotors, bushing or anything else.

Does it have an ABS light that comes on in hot weather? Yes. Is the interior crap? Yes. Is it gutless? (2.nothingL I-4) Yes.

Has it been about 10K worth of vehicle for 3K with less maintenance than the average lawnmower? Yes.

It's a truck. Not a statement of who you are. I really don't give a crap if a ton of amenities don't work.

I like Tacomas. But much like Rovers, pretty much every person who buys one new is a flaming dipshit. I never have understood that. The second owners tend to be pretty cool.

Im willing to bet you S10 needs some steering parts. I have one and its a mud/ranch truck so the WHOLE front end has been replaced but I dont blame it as its had a hard life and has 168K, but I have yet to see one S10 roll into the shop that didnt atleast need an idler or pitman arm. If your doesnt need one its probably already been replaced.

Once you get the steering linkage sorted they are very reliable though.

I had to replace the center link on mine, I bent it on a cactus, its also been buried about 4 inches above the bottom of the door, had to leave it for a week in a field. Kinda gives you a clue into the life mines had.